Is God Evil???

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: JoshuaCox

If you can show me where in the bible that the Torments of hell are eternal for humanity I would be impressed
What I hear is a person who hears but doesn't put any effort into understanding what is said

Matthew 25:46

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Jude 1:7

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46

And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Matthew 13:41,50

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers. 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

a few examples

a reply to: Raggedyman

I wonder if you know what doing good things for the sake of theology means?
How about doing good things because Jesus loves me and I want to show the world Jesus love by doing good things to others?

then you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

Love means letting go, allowing others to be responsible, irresponsible, not controlling, not demanding.
Fry wants God to treat people as robots, programmed
Fry has a childish argument in my opinion

im sure he would not be surprised or offended. but i would be more fascinated to see how he would respond.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Lol if any Christian within 20 miles of me right now has ever actually read the Bible I would be impressed..

That doesn't change that is the mainstream opinion of Christianity..

A) that god is omnipresent and all of reality is decided by gods plan. We are all just actors in his play.

B) that sinners burn in hell for all eternity..

Blows my mind so few Christians have ever actually thought about it enough to realize, got is torturing people for doing what god decided they were going to do..

If it is all gods plan, then everyone should go to heaven, for playing their parts.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

the whole of what is going on is known of God but not his plan. His plan is that all men would be saved and that is your choice not his.

best of luck to ya.

a reply to: TzarChasm

So you read a book written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek translated into English and then stick to every word as if you believe it's inerrant
If you read the word, it says that hells fires are eternal, it also teaches satans kingdom will suffer eternal pain as hell was created for them
Humanity will be destroyed, burned up like chaff.

Do you know of the tree of good and evil? What about the other tree in the garden, the tree of life

I don't see the point of explaining anything to you TC, you can't listen, you don't have the capacity.
Even if I took the time, explained and answered your questions, you won't listen, you are simply here to argue and moan about your pre conceived injustices and tell everyone how clever you are

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: JoshuaCox

the whole of what is going on is known of God but not his plan. His plan is that all men would be saved and that is your choice not his.

best of luck to ya.

John 3.16
For God so loved the word...that whoever believed....eternal life

Also interesting in the Lord's Prayer that we christians ask The Father God to excercise His will on earth as it is in heaven

But no, it seems all the atheists around here are calvinists

Gods plan is that all humanity is saved, it's always a free will choice

I am always surprised when an atheist preaches their version f the gospel to me

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Who cares if anyone's read the whole bible?
What do they get a nice shiny crown in heaven or a well done stamp on their hand

"Welcome to heaven, only if you have read all the bible"


The mainstream opinion of christianity is definetly not pre destination
Eternal life for humans is Greek teaching and not Hebrew teaching. While hells fires are eternal, immortality for humanity is not taught

Please believe what you want, but please don't tell me that you know anything other than what you have guessed at or heard from some one you think knows more than you and took it on board as the gospel truth because you were to lazy to learn anything for yourself

Havnt read the bible, obviously neither have you, yet here you preach at everyone your cultic calvinistic doctrines

a reply to: ChesterJohn

That is your interpretation..and a fair one at that..

But not the mainstream opinion.

The mainstream opinion is that god isn't just privy to the future, but also decides it.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Spoken like some one who claims the Bible is the word of god, but who has never even taken the time to read it themselves..


Just like 99.999% of Christianity..

Is there a logical justification for having read the entire Harry Potter series (or whatever genre you are into) but not reading a book literally made by the creator of everything??

Because I can't think of one...

"
God has revealed to us in the Bible that He not only created all things but He also preplanned everything that would happen in His creation. He both knows everything that has happened and everything that is yet future. He actively decreed every detail of this reality, and He is sovereign over all. "

That is the Bible.org

That's pretty mainstream huh?

"Predestination [N] [E]
The Concept. Divine predestination means that God has a purpose that is determined long before it is brought to pass. It implies that God is infinitely capable of planning and then bringing about what he has planned, and Scripture speaks of him as doing this ( Isa 14:24-27 ; 22:11 ; 37:26 ; 44:7-8 ; 46:8-10 ). Prophecy in its predictive mode is to be understood accordingly. God plans and makes his plans known, as he chooses, to his servants the prophets ( Amos 3:7 ). God's purpose is one of love and grace ( Deut 7:6-8 ; Isa 41:8-9 ), above all because in love he predestined what should come to pass in his plan to save and to restore sinful humanity through Christ ( Eph 1:5 ). Colossians 1:26 speaks of this purpose as "the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but now is disclosed." This implies that all that is in God's good purpose for us, individually or as part of the people of God, is by God's initiative and thus is a work of grace, something that we could never instigate or deserve ( Deut 9:4-6 ; 2 Tim 1:9 )."

That's the biblestudygroup. Com

That's 2 pretty mainstream examples..

To be fair the still claim man has free will on top of this, but that isn't possible..

You can't plan out the future to your whim and then claim those who played out your plan have free will.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Spoken like a true Calvinist Mr Cox, are you a Calvinist
Do you know what a Calvinist is Mr Cox, no I didnt think so

You have made it clear that you dont really know what you are talking about, that you dont understand theology, nor have read any of the bible, if you have it ALL went over your bonce

It staggers belief that an uneducated person in this field would even consider arguing theology
You even posted scripture that proves you are wrong

My life is pre planned, it will end in death, thats the plan, thats a given.
Does that mean everything else will be planned.
Your argument is childish and ignorant of the what the bible teaches.
You are quoting fundamental calvinism and demanding I accept your preaching as scripture, why do that?
You are an atheist pharisee preaching what you think you know, probably taught by a catholic priest and now believe you know everything.

I just dont get why you would do that?

This question makes no sense,God made what is.
Obviously some of life is a mystery.Also good and evil in this life.

Why not ask..Is God good instead?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: JoshuaCox

the whole of what is going on is known of God but not his plan. His plan is that all men would be saved and that is your choice not his.

best of luck to ya.

I'm sorry. Do you mean God the omniscience plan to save all men but he does not know what is going on to his plan?
Isn't it odd condering this?

1020 God, all-knowing

The omniscience of God is that attribute by which he knows all things past, present and future. What is hidden from human sight is still known by God. Scripture stresses the wisdom of God in all his actions, and often grounds this in his all-embracing knowledge.

God’s unique self-knowledge within the Trinity

Mt 11:27 See also Jn 10:15; 1Co 2:10-11

The nature of God’s knowledge

God’s knowledge originates within himself Isa 40:13-14 See also Job 21:22; Ro 11:33-34; 1Co 2:16

God’s knowledge is complete Mt 10:30 pp Lk 12:7 See also Ps 147:4; Isa 40:26

God knows things that are hidden from human understanding Dt 29:29 See also Job 37:15-16; Da 2:22; Mt 24:36 pp Mk 13:32; Ac 1:7; 2Co 12:2-4

God’s comprehensive knowledge of people

God’s knowledge of people’s actions Job 34:21 See also Job 24:23; Job 31:4; Ps 33:13-15; Ps 139:2-3; Jer 23:24

God’s knowledge of people’s needs Mt 6:8 See also Mt 6:31-32 pp Lk 12:29-30

God’s knowledge of people’s hearts and minds 1Ch 28:9 Scripture views the heart not primarily as the seat of emotion but more particularly as the seat of the will. See also Ps 44:20-21; Ps 139:1-2; Jer 17:10; Eze 11:5; Heb 4:12-13

God’s knowledge of individuals Ge 20:1-7 God’s knowledge of Abimelech’s motives and behaviour towards Abraham’s wife Sarah; 1Sa 16:1-12 the Lord to Samuel regarding David’s anointing as king; Ac 5:1-10 God’s knowledge of the deception of Ananias and Sapphira

God’s knowledge of people’s sin Jer 16:17 See also Job 10:14; Ps 69:5; Jer 2:22; Hos 7:2; Am 5:12

God’s foreknowledge

Isa 46:10 See also Isa 42:9; Isa 44:7; Da 2:28

God’s foreknowledge of Jesus Christ’s passion Ac 2:23 See also Ac 3:18; Ac 4:27-28

God’s foreknowledge of those who would become disciples Ro 8:29 See also Jer 1:5; Ro 11:2; 1Pe 1:2

God’s foreknowledge of people’s free actions Ps 139:4 See also Ex 3:19; Dt 31:21; 1Sa 23:10-13

Implications of God’s knowledge

God’s knowledge ensures that all will be judged fairly Heb 4:13 See also 1Sa 2:3; Job 34:22-23; Ecc 12:14; Ro 2:16; 1Co 4:5

God’s knowledge ensures that he knows those who are his 2Ti 2:19 See also Nu 16:5; Ex 33:12; Job 23:10
Jn 10:14 See also 1Co 8:3; Gal 4:9; 1Jn 3:19-20; Rev 3:8

www.biblegateway.com...

And this?

1412 FOREKNOWLEDGE

Foreknowledge is an aspect of God’s knowledge of everything, and thus nothing can surprise him. Jesus Christ had foreknowledge of his own death, resurrection and coming in glory.

God’s foreknowledge

Everything is within God’s knowledge Isa 42:9 See also 1Ki 22:14; Da 2:28; Mt 24:36 pp Mk 13:32

What God knows he ordains Isa 46:10-11 See also Ac 2:23; Ro 8:28-30; 1Pe 1:1-2

God’s foreknowledge of the Messiah Ac 3:18 See also Isa 11:1-3; Isa 53:7-9; Mic 5:2; Ac 2:22-23; Ac 4:27-28; 1Pe 1:20

God’s foreknowledge and his election of his people

God’s sovereign choice Ro 8:29 See also Pr 16:4; Ro 9:11-12; Ro 11:2; Eph 1:4; 1Pe 1:1-2,20

Human responsibility Heb 2:3 See also Jn 3:18,36; 1Co 15:2; 2Co 6:1-2; Eph 5:5-6; Heb 3:12; Heb 6:4-6; 2Pe 2:1; Heb 3:15; Ps 95:7-8

Jesus Christ’s foreknowledge

Of events within his general ministry Jn 6:64 See also Mt 17:27; Mt 26:31-34 pp Mk 14:27-30; Lk 22:34; Jn 13:38

Of his suffering and departure Jn 13:1 See also Mt 26:18; Mk 8:31 pp Lk 9:22; Lk 12:50; Lk 22:37; Jn 3:14; Jn 7:33; Jn 13:11,33; Jn 14:28; Jn 17:5; Jn 18:4; Jn 19:28

Of his coming in glory and judgment Mt 16:27 See also Mt 24:30-31 pp Mk 13:26-27; Mt 25:31; Mk 8:38 pp Lk 9:26; Lk 24:26

Jesus Christ’s lack of knowledge of the timing of his coming in glory Mk 13:32 pp Mt 24:36

www.biblegateway.com...

It seem God already knows what is going on, wheter men are saved or not, in the future.
God is the past, present and future.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

A) that god is omnipresent and all of reality is decided by gods plan. We are all just actors in his play. B) that sinners burn in hell for all eternity.. Blows my mind so few Christians have ever actually thought about it enough to realize, got is torturing people for doing what god decided they were going to do..

Joshua -- Your A and B are not in any scriptures of either NT or OT. I don't think the understanding that anyone burns in hell is in the scriptures at all. And the idea that God made you is not scriptures at all. Your Mom and Pop made you and probably are the reason that you act the way you act. All the Creator did was make the pattern and gave all the rest to whatever was procreated from that pattern. Everyone calls their own shots in life and builds their own civilization. God doesn't micromanage what your and my parents have done anymore that He micromanages what you and I do.

originally posted by: Jobeycool
This question makes no sense,God made what is.
Obviously some of life is a mystery.Also good and evil in this life.

Why not ask..Is God good instead?

There is some good in God. I could list a lot but first I need to logically prove God exist. And religion scriptures, be it Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek or English are too distorted, fragmented and dubious in nature to be any helpful. Not to mention vagueness, I wonder how on earth, ancient people could understand this. Let alone modern men.

Anyway, since sciences cant answer things beyond the big bang, singularity and infinity, let's temporary assume that god is the placeholder for all this remaining mysteries. Don't bomb me yet, I know some people hate to attribute creationism, but for argument sake let's assume God exist.

So based on this assumption, the good things about God is definitely us! We exist along with our universe reality. Through us consciousness emerge to seek the universe, the reality and the Theory of Everything! Through us, we discover the magical reality of God own creation. That's itself is a reward to God.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: JoshuaCox

A) that god is omnipresent and all of reality is decided by gods plan. We are all just actors in his play. B) that sinners burn in hell for all eternity.. Blows my mind so few Christians have ever actually thought about it enough to realize, got is torturing people for doing what god decided they were going to do..

Joshua -- Your A and B are not in any scriptures of either NT or OT. I don't think the understanding that anyone burns in hell is in the scriptures at all. And the idea that God made you is not scriptures at all. Your Mom and Pop made you and probably are the reason that you act the way you act. All the Creator did was make the pattern and gave all the rest to whatever was procreated from that pattern. Everyone calls their own shots in life and builds their own civilization. God doesn't micromanage what your and my parents have done anymore that He micromanages what you and I do.

If God has to micromanage everything accordingly to his plan, then there will no need for him to give us free will.

I'm more leaning towards the idea that God's plan is just simple. To set up a liveable universe so that his tiny little cute creatures, including human, to prosper within pre-sets condition or rules we called nature. Everything else is left open to the livings. God give us as much freedom as he can, provided we dont cross the Ten Commandments which is very simple heavenly law. When Jews commited grave sins, God still forgive us through Jesus. Historically, Jesus of Nazareth cruxification is written by multiple non Christians sources, leaves little doubt that Jesus was indeed cruxified under Roman tradition. And Pontius Pilate does exist...We all have earn our salvation. Past, present and future. God already knows that. So it is useless to argue about sin and hell. We may be well spend our energy to argue our nature selection of cause and effect. We still dont understand a lot of mysteries about life and death.

But of course, I'm very sure, someone dont like that idea. Someone see the benefit of God law and blind faith to gain wealth and power. Others cries for justice and mercy. Some require hope and guidance. Thus they started to control the mass by terror and deceive. This is what we get as the product of centuries old terrorism, deception and fear. And that is the problem with God being evil things. If hell exist, then this deceivers of satan followers, including the emperors, the kings, the ministry, the cardinal, the noble, the bishop, the pope, the imam, the jihadist etc.. should be rightful be burnt there. But that's just my opinion. I'm sure God is more merciful than I am.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Do you know of the tree of good and evil? What about the other tree in the garden, the tree of life

i have heard of them. not sure what they have to do with anything here.

I don't see the point of explaining anything to you TC, you can't listen, you don't have the capacity.
Even if I took the time, explained and answered your questions, you won't listen, you are simply here to argue and moan about your pre conceived injustices and tell everyone how clever you are

its not my fault you arent very good at defending your philosophies. maybe someone from upper management should come down from mt olympus and take over for you. i notice you didnt actually address any of the scripture i posted in response to your question. i wonder if thats a sign.

on topic: at this point in the thread, it looks like god or whatever higher power in allegedly in charge of our fortunes and fates is a very morally ambiguous figure. trading mountain upon mountain of sins in exchange for meddling very selectively in pivotal moments where he is more or less personally inclined to enforce his will as opposed to being an impersonal force of unequivocal incontrovertible ubiquitous justice and mercy. justice for those who deserve it and mercy for those who need it. more like a slot machine than an actual guardian. make what excuses you will, that is not perfection. its arguably not even making the most of things. at best, its doing the exact minimum to avoid being discarded and forgotten. at worst, it is walking away from the job without even a letter of resignation. a dummy at a speed trap. a recording of a barking dog to deter would be trespassers. an illusion that we have long since deduced and exploited because its more useful than just tearing away the curtain and shutting down the console behind the light show. is god evil?? no...but the people who use the idea of god for selfish purposes might well be. god is as evil as guns and spoons. god is a crazy allegory for possibility, the frame in which the tapestry of our probabilties is woven. not a thoughtful observant and proactive grandfatherly element that interacts and assists the weaving of action and reaction, just the indifferent field on which you decide your fate and your legacy. a clumsy and weirdly poetic metaphor for choice and the consequences of choice. what is and is not and therefore what can and cannot be. that should give you all a good starting point to work with. stop letting the deck decide your game or you will never be more than just a handful of cards waiting to be thrown away.

im done here. see you folks around.

a reply to: EasternShadow

If god planned out the future , and it is his plan , not just he has glimpsed the future..

That he intentionally decided "here is what I want to happen" and planned out how to make that happen..

Then there is no free will.

Any free will could derail your plan, even one person.. so then you couldn't really have a plan you knew was gonna happen. Your just hoping.. which doesn't match the Christian bible.

"Don't worry, God has a plan.."

"Don't worry god has a plan for you.."

"This is all part of gods plan.."


What percent of Christianity would disagree with that??

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Raggedyman

Do you know of the tree of good and evil? What about the other tree in the garden, the tree of life

i have heard of them. not sure what they have to do with anything here.

You confirm my point
You are done here!

a reply to: EasternShadow

No not what I am saying at all. But all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to his purpose.

If you are not taking God's calling personally then all thing do not work together for good but for evil.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: EasternShadow

If god planned out the future , and it is his plan , not just he has glimpsed the future..

That he intentionally decided "here is what I want to happen" and planned out how to make that happen..

Then there is no free will.

Any free will could derail your plan, even one person.. so then you couldn't really have a plan you knew was gonna happen. Your just hoping.. which doesn't match the Christian bible.

"Don't worry, God has a plan.."

"Don't worry god has a plan for you.."

"This is all part of gods plan.."


What percent of Christianity would disagree with that??

God plan is very simple. Someone already pointed it out to save human from sin. It's is also written in Revealation that God has pay the price with his own blood. Therefore, God is no longer hostile with us. We have come to peace with God. As evident we no longer experience God cursing from above causing natural disaster and global plague like the black death. God intervene in human affair has ended. He already accomplish his plan through Jesus's cruxification.

There is no other plan. If there is, we would see more prophets coming from nowhere and science would finally have the empirical evidence of god existence. But God has make it clear that he will not send his messengers anymore. There will no more persons like Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus who are capable of performing miracle etc... There is no need to do so. God has already foreknowledge that we will some day reach our current level of understanding and technology to know what's best for own sake. Everything happen now and then, is no longer in God's plan. Despite what the preachers told you, God does not plan for everyone. He does not plan who will burn in hell or who will go to heaven. He does not plan what job you do for your living. He does not plan your children died prematurely. He does not plan a mother commit suicide out of grief. He does not plan how you live, how you pray, how you socialize, how you dress and how you react etc.. It's all up to you. Not God. If life is unfair, it is because life is governed by the law of cause and effect. For something to happen it must have a cause. A baby died prematurely because her/his body does not have sufficient immune system against disease because her/his mother smoke because her/his mother failed to provide sufficient nutrition to the baby. This is all due to the law of cause and effect. It's not part of God's plan. But God already knows the baby will die and so will the mother, long before the baby is conceived. God knows because of the law of cause and effect. Not because he plan it. People out of grief will try to blame someone for the loss. They turn to God. But since God cant intervene with law, people blame God for being evil. The preachers who suppose to guide the people is exactly the reason why you should not trust man when it comes to God's word. The saying that "God has plan for everyone" is bull#. God does not plan for everyone. But God creates the universe, the reality we live and the law of nature. God want us to prosper in his creation. Everything about God's plan is in there. He has archieve that.

But what about Hell and eternal punishment?
God does not create Hell for human but for Satan. The eternal punishment is for Satan. Even now Satan suffers in way you cant imagine. Satan exist because God exist. Light and Dark co-exist for eternity. But what's up there between God and Satan is none of human business.

Anyway I suggest you do not trust the Bible wholly. Most of the Bible are already lost in time due to many factors even before official compilation and canonized. Both Oregon and Eusebius are also not reliable. Neither does Emperor Constantine motivation with creation of Christianity. The best is to use your own judgment and critical thinking when dealing with claims about God. Every theologist should know that. That is why we keep questioning the sources of Bible. As Shakespears said, "Trust not the wooden rotten plank"