Mexico president cancels Trump summit as wall jibe deepens spat

originally posted by: Orwells Ghost
If "cheap" Mexican goods suddenly cost more to import then the USA simply buys domestically, creating jobs, boosting the local economy, and creating more tax revenue to fund infrastructure projects, including the wall; All of which helps Trump further his agenda and continue to make good on his campaign promises and has the side effect of helping Americans. C'mon guys, this is basic stuff.

And prices rise, leaving people unable to purchase as much as they did previously.

a reply to: Aazadan

Except for those American's who now have an actual income thanks to the job creation that will follow. They'll actually be able to purchase more, and pay more taxes, and they'll be purchasing American. Will it hurt at first? Yep. Why is this so hard to understand?

originally posted by: Orwells Ghost
a reply to: Aazadan

Except for those American's who now have an actual income thanks to the job creation that will follow. They'll actually be able to purchase more, and pay more taxes, and they'll be purchasing American. Will it hurt at first? Yep. Why is this so hard to understand?

They won't have an income though. Illegals hold jobs that pay minimum wage or less. When there's no more illegals, those jobs will still pay minimum wage because if you increase it, those jobs will be automated away.

The bottom 50% of this country has 0.4% of all the wealth generation. Every unemployed person could be given a minimum wage job today and it would be less than 1/10 of 1% in increased wealth.

If you cannot start at atleast 35k/year (average, in some places that number is as high as 70k) it's not worth working the job. That applies to creating the job as well.

originally posted by: Lysergic
Literally 4 story mansion next to cardboard huts, how about fixing that mess?

Consider the shape of Mexico.

It would be a lot cheaper to build that wall a LOT farther South than Texas.

a reply to: Caver78
Thank god you came to the rescue and set things straight. You do realize a huge majority of imports from Mexico are parts for things assembled in the US right?

So please explain again how this 20% tariff doesn't mean Americans pay for this stupid wall. While you are at it please tell me why this stupid wall is required? Is it going to make you feel warm and cozy?

a reply to: Aazadan

Decades of abhorrent trade practices and illicit foreign labour have led to these issues you speak of; the fundamentals are no longer sound. Minimum wage in a US State is an exorbitant wage in Mexico. Minimum wage in Mexico is not even subsistence living in the United States.

Here you have an opportunity to right these wrongs, fair trade and a sound border policy will not lead to job loss. America will have to start actually making things again. Play your cards right and the buying power of your dollar, the value that actually matters, will increase, automation or not. Somebody has to design, fabricate and maintain those machines, and they'll be American.

The "negotiations" are just getting started. IM sure Trump has intentions to leverage cash/aid. But in economic warfare, Mexico doesn't stand a chance. Trump knows this, and is seeking to gain concessions from the bully pulpit.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
The "negotiations" are just getting started. IM sure Trump has intentions to leverage cash/aid. But in economic warfare, Mexico doesn't stand a chance. Trump knows this, and is seeking to gain concessions from the bully pulpit.

I wonder what Goliath thought the first time he gazed upon David?

Hubris is a nation killer.

how much money will be saved by throwing the illegals out and keeping them out?
That`s what`s going to pay for the wall and pay for a lot of other things too.

a reply to: Aazadan

Be careful.

Too many people are still using the indoctrination thinking that's been instilled for decades.



And don't forget who has gotten us into crazy economic slumps for over 100 years. Yup, the PhD political economists.

a reply to: Aazadan

Meanwhile high school kids are being pushed out by adults who need that McDonalds job instead. So you now have adults demanding more for doing a job that adults wouldn't do 20 years ago. And then turn around and complain about the poor work ethic of "today's youth". No kidding...there aren't kids jobs anymore.

Because the creation of goods is no longer here, all we have left is service.

Its all screwed up. And it began with Mexico exporting labor. I suspect that percapita they may not even be the worst case (India and China have exported immense amounts of labor both skilled and otherwise, which then exports our currency back to India and China).

Regardless, there is only 1 cure for a deficit and debt: put people to work and start collecting taxes. You can't do it any other way. The economy will adjust. And it should be positive in the end, presuming he doesn't screw it up along the way.

originally posted by: Orwells Ghost
a reply to: Aazadan

Decades of abhorrent trade practices and illicit foreign labour have led to these issues you speak of; the fundamentals are no longer sound. Minimum wage in a US State is an exorbitant wage in Mexico. Minimum wage in Mexico is not even subsistence living in the United States.

Here you have an opportunity to right these wrongs, fair trade and a sound border policy will not lead to job loss. America will have to start actually making things again. Play your cards right and the buying power of your dollar, the value that actually matters will increase, automation or not. Somebody has to design, fabricate and maintain those machines, and they'll be American.

But illegals who live in the US permanently aren't able to take advantage of currency differences, they're able to send home what ends up being a substantial amount of money to family back in Mexico but illegals themselves aren't able to take advantage. At least for those who are permanent residents here, some of the migrant farm workers take advantage of it.

The issue with automation though is that it will reduce jobs. I'm well aware with the costs of doing so. Those who automate tasks are paid well but automation teams are small compared to the number of jobs they're displacing. That's why they're able to command such a high wage. The common jobs with automation wind up being low paid, low skill jobs that wind up near minimum wage. They may not be American either, currently the Asian's are way ahead of us in the ability to automate traditional low end jobs. Where we make kiosks, assembly lines, and so on, they make interactive robots that can actually serve people.

Those wrongs will not be righted, until we reduce income inequality in the US low paying jobs are going to continue to be subsistance level regardless of the nationality of who works them.

originally posted by: Tardacus
how much money will be saved by throwing the illegals out and keeping them out?
That`s what`s going to pay for the wall and pay for a lot of other things too.

Worth at least a 20% reduction in aid to sanctuary cities.

originally posted by: peck420

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
The "negotiations" are just getting started. IM sure Trump has intentions to leverage cash/aid. But in economic warfare, Mexico doesn't stand a chance. Trump knows this, and is seeking to gain concessions from the bully pulpit.

I wonder what Goliath thought the first time he gazed upon David?

Hubris is a nation killer.

Hubris is a bad trait. But the cliche of Goliath is a one in a million chance. The reality is: negotiations are about position, and we have the stronger position. Whether you or I agree on if its right, the fact remains that our position is stronger and Trump, being a businessman trained in the art of the deal, will use that position to create agreements he feels are favorable. And something inside me tells me that Trumps intention are to enrich Nieto at least. You grease the wheels.

Nieto has to grandstand for his constituents. Mexican people are fiercely proud. But he will come to the table eventually.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I would love to get away from a service sector economy. At the same time though, we're never going to do that if we're trying to compete for the same non service jobs that have been devalued. Part of me is honestly dumbfounded that we're seriously arguing over migrant farm labor and small time contract work from people you pick up outside of Lowes. That's not industry. Those jobs ceased having value after the rest of the world recovered from WW2. Regardless of economic protection practices which can move those jobs here or not... it's still fighting over table scraps and leaving the rest of the world to develop modern industry.

If we want a long term solution that's what we have to be working towards. Make jobs and products that other nations want, and we'll have something to do here at home without having to have anti competitive practices and the consequences of that.

I guess improving trade translates to pissing everyone off.

That should improve things!

a reply to: peck420

Reality beats it all, though and the reality is that the US still has the world reserve currency and the strongest purchasing power in the world while Mexico has nada.

a reply to: Aazadan

I do hear what you are saying, but it is my belief that the automation issue is a separate one, one that we're all going to have to face in the developed world, no matter what happens and who is in charge. Personally, I look forward to it in the hope that rational thinking will prevail and we will meet the quantum leap in productivity that automation will bring with a proportional reduction in the amount of labour required of each person participating in the economy. Not less money for everybody, but more free time. As I said, a separate issue.

This is a discussion about right now, and America giving a fair shake to Americans, not foreigners; and I say this as a foreigner. Sound policy, fair not free trade, and hard, honest work will be of benefit to you. It won't be easy, but as has been said, doing the right thing seldom is.

a reply to: Aazadan

Yeah, the farm labor and day labor arenas are something I hate to see taken away.

But housekeeping can be a pretty decent paying position (especially if you get tips), and is often the target of ICE raids. Construction, oil field in particular, are solid jobs. Mechanic. Meat processing. Manufacturing dry good/frozen foods. All these are jobs that can support half a household, that are frequently raided by ICE.

Its not just migrant farm workers (who will still get in, I think, as they are crafty just like anyone else) and guys sitting outside Home Depot. Its all sorts of other jobs that should likely pay more, but dont because its under the table.