Mexico president cancels Trump summit as wall jibe deepens spat

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
Your summation assumes that this is only be between the US and Mexico.

It isn't.

a reply to: peck420

That is who we are talking about: Mexico and their reponse to Trumps proposed wall and who pays for it.

You can think the world will put pressure on the US. But thats not a given, and its unknown what the result would be. At the end of the day, we have a right to sovereignty, and Mexico has not been a very polite neighbor..

The next step should be purging the CIA and DEA, since they caused the hell hole in Mexico.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
Nowhere did I state that the world will pressure the US.

The world has, however, already begun to court Mexico.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The next step should be purging the CIA and DEA, since they caused the hell hole in Mexico.

Heh.

Wall or no wall, the CIA/DEA will continue with their drug running cartel operations without even so much as a hiccup in the process.

I don't think that he is in the position of power here. His nation depends upon trade with the US and the huge amount of cash that is sent back to Mexico every month by Mexicans working here in the US

I think that there is going to be a big change with regard to US and Mexico relations in the near future

a reply to: peck420

Good.

Im sure we'd appreciate not having to prop up their economy.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

The next step should be purging the CIA and DEA, since they caused the hell hole in Mexico.

Heh.

Wall or no wall, the CIA/DEA will continue with their drug running cartel operations without even so much as a hiccup in the process.

No doubt.

That is the swamp in need of draining, though.

After having read this thread, I fail to see how Trump will be in a strong position.

America by the sound of it will end up paying for the wall, besides anything else, you have to look at America's export internationally, which if I look at it from the UK's perspective we don't import a lot of American goods, most of what I own is "made in China" America cannot offer a living wage to its workers and still expect to increase export as currently the appetite just isn't there.

A lot of your American snacks (sweets) are sold for triple what it would cost for me to buy something British or European made, we have some great little sweet boutiques which sell this stuff and its a wonderful novelty, but the average UK citizen isn't going to buy consistently due to its cost.

Now if America wish to start exporting more to countries such as ours, they are going to have to sell pretty cheap because the experiment you are just beginning is about 7 years in over here, I can tell you now there is nothing to be gained by freezing out a great swathe of your population from spending because your economy will suffer, as it stands right now the Western world relies on a service driven economy.

Thing is America cannot grant a living wage to all its citizens, as it will mean rising the costs to make enough profit when they want to export, yet there may not be a global appetite for this.

To compete on the level China has for years isn't viable any longer for the U.S unless you reset the entire worlds currency value, yet that is unlikely for several reasons, one being that you apparently have a shiny new policy of non-interference of other countries outside the U.S

a reply to: solargeddon

We ARE in a strong position. If we have to pay for the wall, it'll likely be more than compensated by the reduced drain on our economy.

If the rest of the world wants to trade with mexico, bully for them.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: solargeddon

We ARE in a strong position. If we have to pay for the wall, it'll likely be more than compensated by the reduced drain on our economy.

If the rest of the world wants to trade with mexico, bully for them.

I don't doubt our trade would remain unchanged with Mexico, we import about as much from them as we do from you less in fact, but I still think economically speaking for you folks it may be a reach, I guess time will tell.

At least you are happy to accept you may end up paying for your own wall financially, yet you are happy with that, as you see yourselves as being compensated through a trade off via policy.

Vicente Fox thinks Trump is Hitler because he wants to put America first and promises jobs. He also said Mexicans are armed and ready to defend Mexico.......

My question is will this wall work….. effectively enough to justify cost? If so how?
I don't believe it will deter those who want to come over much at all.

a reply to: waftist

Is President Trump completing what has been in the works for a while?

H.R. 6061, the "Secure Fence Act of 2006", was introduced on September 13, 2006. It passed through the U.S. House of Representatives on September 14, 2006 with a vote of 283–138.

On September 29, 2006, by a vote of 80–19 the U.S. Senate confirmed H.R. 6061 authorizing, and partially funding the "possible" construction of 700 miles (1,125 km) of physical fence/barriers along the border. The very broad support implied that many assurances were been made by the Administration—to the Democrats, Mexico, and the pro "Comprehensive immigration reform" minority within the GOP—that Homeland Security would proceed very cautiously. Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff, announced that an eight-month test of the virtual fence he favored would precede any construction of a physical barrier.

On October 26, 2006, President George W. Bush signed H.R. 6061 which was voted upon and passed by the 109th Congress of the United States.[21] The signing of the bill came right after a CNN poll showed that most Americans "prefer the idea of more Border Patrol agents to a 700-mile (1,125-kilometer) fence."[22] The Department of Homeland Security has a down payment of $1.2 billion marked for border security, but not specifically for the border fence.

As of January 2010, the fence project had been completed from San Diego, California to Yuma, Arizona.[dubious – discuss] From there it continued into Texas and consisted of a fence that was 21 feet (6.4 m) tall and 6 feet (1.8 m) deep in the ground, cemented in a 3-foot (0.91 m)-wide trench with 5000 psi (345 bar; 352 kg/cm²) concrete. There were no fatalities during construction, but there were 4 serious injuries with multiple aggressive acts against building crews. There was one reported shooting with no injury to a crew member in Mexicali region. All fence sections are south of the all American canals, and have access roads giving border guards the ability to reach any point easily, including the dunes area where a border agent was killed 3 years before and is now sealed off.

The Republican Party's 2012 platform stated that "The double-layered fencing on the border that was enacted by Congress in 2006, but never completed, must finally be built."[23] The Secure Fence Act's costs were estimated at $6 billion,[24] more than the Customs and Border Protection's entire annual discretionary budget of $5.6 billion.[25] The Washington Office on Latin America noted on its Border Fact Check site in about the year 2013 that the cost of complying with the Secure Fence Act's mandate was the reason it had not been completely fulfilled.[26]

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: TheBulk
Vicente Fox thinks Trump is Hitler because he wants to put America first and promises jobs. He also said Mexicans are armed and ready to defend Mexico.......

So Mexico will stand at the ready while the U.S. builds a wall? I don't follow his logic. Is there any critical thinking left!??

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Aazadan

Yeah, the farm labor and day labor arenas are something I hate to see taken away.

But housekeeping can be a pretty decent paying position (especially if you get tips), and is often the target of ICE raids. Construction, oil field in particular, are solid jobs. Mechanic. Meat processing. Manufacturing dry good/frozen foods. All these are jobs that can support half a household, that are frequently raided by ICE.

Its not just migrant farm workers (who will still get in, I think, as they are crafty just like anyone else) and guys sitting outside Home Depot. Its all sorts of other jobs that should likely pay more, but dont because its under the table.

It depends a lot on geography. For example, the illegals where I live all work in restaurants. It's more the contractors who are inbetween jobs that do day labor. But, I probably live in one of the areas least affected by illegal immigration. In Texas you're going to see more places hiring illegals.

My point remains though, a lot of these jobs are either entry level or low skill. They have limited room for advancement and make for poor career positions. Positions like mechanics are starting to get into the realm of what's worth protecting, but that's not the majority of jobs. I would bet that for every 1 illegal working as a mechanic there's 30 working in a car wash.

Ultimately though, the section of jobs illegals are taking is not a high revenue section of jobs. Rather than chasing after these positions we would be much better off chasing the new jobs that hold higher value. High speed rail, drone production for last mile delivery, 3d printing, anything having to do with oil, drone piloting, those are jobs which don't require extensive education but are all going to be lucrative going forward.

But really, long term we're going to have to adapt our economy. We're not going to remain a wealthy nation if young adults are poorly educated and working obsolete jobs.

originally posted by: solargeddon
After having read this thread, I fail to see how Trump will be in a strong position.

Trumps in a decent negotiating position here. The wall is largely pointless, but what isn't pointless is the fact that we can tax money sent to Mexico and we can put tariffs on goods sent here. The real question is, what does Trump want from Mexico and what is he going to give them in exchange? A demand without giving something up won't accomplish anything because Mexico has some bargaining leverage of it's own like encouraging people to go north, less policing of cartels along the border, etc... they also have some economic leverage with food production, or even allowing people to go north and work in our fields.

America by the sound of it will end up paying for the wall

We will. There will be claims that Mexico paid for it, but all that's going to be is reflecting higher prices Americans paid for goods. While the US has some leverage in whatever negotiations we're actually conducting, we have basically none in making Mexico pay for a wall.

originally posted by: D8Tee
a reply to: waftist

Is President Trump completing what has been in the works for a while?

I would assume that's what he ultimately compromises on. The fence that's already half built will be completed, Trump will embellish it, call it a wall, then mention that he only spend x billion on it when all his critics said a wall would cost 100 billion+.

His supporters will take this to mean Trump is a financial genius. The rest of the people will realize the emperor still has no clothes.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: burdman30ott6

We eliminate NAFTA and build the wall and the savings on eliminating all of those illegals from America's social spending programs combined with the tariffs on Mexican imports and return of many jobs to the US from Mexico will pay for that wall... Who presently benefits from that social spending and those jobs? Mexico does, obviously. The $100 Billion+ annual tax payer expense to feed, educate, incarcerate, and medically care for all of those illegal aliens is $100 Billion+ Mexico doesn't have to spend on their escapees and the $64 Billion annual US losses thanks to NAFTA are presently $64 Billion additional dollars into Mexico's economy.

Actually, it appears that we may need illegal/undocumented worked to help bolster our social services programs.

The truth is that undocumented immigrants contribute more in payroll taxes than they will ever consume in public benefits. Take Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), unauthorized immigrants -- who are not eligible to receive Social Security benefits -- have paid an eye-popping $100 billion into the fund over the past decade. "They are paying an estimated $15 billion a year into Social Security with no intention of ever collecting benefits," Stephen Goss, chief actuary of the SSA told CNNMoney. "Without the estimated 3.1 million undocumented immigrants paying into the system, Social Security would have entered persistent shortfall of tax revenue to cover payouts starting in 2009," he said. As the baby boom generation ages and retires, immigrant workers are key to shoring up Social Security and counteracting the effects of the decline in U.S.-born workers paying into the system, Goss said. Without immigrants, the Social Security Board of Trustees projects that the system will no longer be able to pay the full promised benefits by 2037.

A 2013 CBO analysis of the failed bipartisan bill introduced by the so-called "gang of 8" that would have created a path to legal status for many undocumented immigrants found that increasing legal immigration would increase government spending on refundable tax credits, Medicaid and health insurance subsidies, among other federal benefits. But it would also create even more tax revenue by way of income and payroll taxes. That could reduce deficits by $175 billion over the first 10 years and by at least $700 billion in the second decade. ITEP estimates that allowing certain immigrants to stay in the country and work legally would boost state and local tax contributions by $2 billion a year.

Also:

Undocumented immigrants do not qualify for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and most other public benefits. Most of these programs require proof of legal immigration status and under the 1996 welfare law, even legal immigrants cannot receive these benefits until they have been in the United States for more than five years.

Please read up at the link. This issue is more complicated than people like to make it out to be.

Mexico is in the weaker position, but they are in a "symbiotic" relationship with the US and while we may like to pound our chests because we are the big dog on the block, we may be only hurting ourselves in the end for no logical reason.

money.cnn.com...

Yup, I guess I should go down the road to the day workers I've seen flashing SS cards and tell them they don't qualify..

They broke the law to get here, so whats it matter to add a little fraud/forgery on top of it eh?

a reply to: Aazadan

Just watched Trump on Hannity, he reiterated that The Wall is going to be a real wall, like the wall Israel has, he called it the blueprint for our wall. So far Trump has done what he said he was going to do, if it is at all possible, The Wall will be built, not just a continuation of a worthless fence. Maybe it just won't be possible to build The Wall, but you can be sure Trump will do everything he can to get a real wall built.

originally posted by: muse7
Do we really want to have a hostile nation on our southern border?

Do we really want to have Chinese military bases in Mexico?

Are you fear-mongering right now? Because you guys used to be the ones saying China would never be an aggressor.