German machete attack: At least one person killed

originally posted by: TheFlyOnTheWall
It's just something to think about. Islam divides family, not bring them together.

In that way it's not different from any other religion, politics, sports, whatever.

In the news they said he was waiting asilum in Germany, if thats the case, then he will probably be thrown in a german jail and actually achieve what he wanted, to stay....

a reply to: ArMaP

I beg to differ. Islam specifically tells it's new converts to turn against their own family. I don't know of any sport or religion that commands such a thing. Do you?

4:135

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.

Islam is the antithesis to everything.

dble

a reply to: TheFlyOnTheWall

That quote from the Koran is about being just, even when against ourselves, how is acting with justice the same as turn against their own family?

a reply to: ArMaP

Depends on what your definition of justice is. To be "truly" Muslim.

eta: the tip off is at the end

originally posted by: TheFlyOnTheWall
Depends on what your definition of justice is

To me, justice, in that context, is being truthful, regardless of how it may affect us or those around us, either for bad or for good.

I wonder if these attack have a connection with captagon?

originally posted by: odzeandennz
dear god.

looks like many people on here were right when they said to be cautious about immigrants and how terror groups had sleeper drones in their midst.

I'm a liberal. And I agree. I have a great deal of sympathy for the refugees, ESPECIALLY because the West has been funding the opposition in the Syrian Civil War.

However, it has always struck me as a bit unwise to just open up the borders to lots of refugees without stringent protections.

Instead of effing preaching that we should let them all, HOW ABOUT the West and all of you Westerners stop supporting the Syrian opposition. Stop giving them weapons. Stop training them. Stop funding them. Wow, magically the refugee crisis might let up a bit.

originally posted by: TheFlyOnTheWall
a reply to: ArMaP

I beg to differ. Islam specifically tells it's new converts to turn against their own family. I don't know of any sport or religion that commands such a thing. Do you?

4:135

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.

Islam is the antithesis to everything.

Jesus said he came to bring a sword, and turn brother against brother. He also said that one is not worthy to follow him if they turn back towards their family.... Even to the point of burying one's father.....

So please tell us again how Islamic texts are worse?

a reply to: ArMaP

When debating with Muslims, they frequently say you need to read the verses in context. So let's take a look at the preceding and proceeding verses.

4:134
Whoever desires the reward of this world - then with Allah is the reward of this world and the Hereafter. And ever is Allah Hearing and Seeing.

[4:135]

4:136
O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.

4:137
Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way.

4:138
Give tidings to the hypocrites that there is for them a painful punishment -


And from there, Muhammad digresses into another one of his diatribes against unbelievers. So, context is everything and in this context it clearly shows what is it means to be a "just" Muslim. one who never wavers. And if there was still any doubt...

4:139
Those who take disbelievers as allies instead of the believers. Do they seek with them honor [through power]? But indeed, honor belongs to Allah entirely.

So getting back to 4:135 to bring this home:

"be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives.

Muhammad is saying you must be a true believer to be standing in firm justice even if it is against your relatives

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14


Jesus said he came to bring a sword, and turn brother against brother. He also said that one is not worthy to follow him if they turn back towards their family.... Even to the point of burying one's father.....

So please tell us again how Islamic texts are worse?

They're both bad. But I guess we know where Muhammad got some of his ideas. However, in regards to contextualizing, Islam has got Christianity beat.

originally posted by: TheFlyOnTheWall
When debating with Muslims, they frequently say you need to read the verses in context.

Frequently, yes, always, no.

So getting back to 4:135 to bring this home:

"be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives.

Muhammad is saying you must be a true believer to be standing in firm justice even if it is against your relatives

That's your interpretation of that translation, the one I have (in Portuguese) says something like "acting as witnesses, for the love of god", and the tone of the whole paragraph is about justice, not specifically about following god.

a reply to: ArMaP

That's your interpretation of that translation

Ah, the crux. Yes, indeed, that was my interpretation. How can your interpretation be different than mine? I posted directly from quran.com. Upon taking a closer look at "interpretation of 4:135" I come across this verse:

4:135 O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

Slight variation in the tonality which does tend to make your argument more agreeable however, an explanation of the verse further down says:

Verse 135 and 136 are not addressed to mankind (al-nas) as a whole, or to the people of the book, or any other general grouping, but rather to those Muslims who profess to believe, who profess to be striving towards "iman" (faith). This verse and the next are setting down requirements, duties, and behaviours expected of those who strive to be believers.

www.islamfrominside.com...(4-135%20to136).html

I say it's about being a believer and you say it's about justice. I firmly believe it is the former.

a reply to: TheFlyOnTheWall

That's the problem with things that can have different interpretations from different points of view, and only the person(s) that wrote it could know what it meant.

That's one of the things I don't like in religion, as I like clear, straightforward things.

a reply to: ArMaP

I agree. But what does justice mean to you regarding this verse? Justice for all or just justice for Muslims? What is the actual interpretation of the meaning "justice" Balance and fairness right? All pure things of the heart. Makes sense and is a reasonable request. But whom does it apply to? What makes a Muslim perfect?

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: imod02
"I like to deny ignorance‚ correct me if I am wrong" I just did and it seem you did not like it

It's just that I don't take any thing that someone tells me as the truth without verifiable facts.

In this case, there's a conflict between what you say and what I have witnessed and read, so I need hard facts to accept what you say as more correct than what I have witnessed and what I have read about Islam.

So what if I ask you to prove what you have said, everything I have said is well documented facts about islam, you just answer with "its not what I know about islam" . Words as much as actions tell who people are.

What can I say that hasn't already been said? This is just another example of why allowing these "refugees" into western countries is a mistake.

originally posted by: PorteurDeMort
What can I say that hasn't already been said? This is just another example of why allowing these "refugees" into western countries is a mistake.

Thats all well and good.... in reality however they are fleeing a war torn land and they are not stopping, so how do you propose stopping them ?

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: PorteurDeMort
What can I say that hasn't already been said? This is just another example of why allowing these "refugees" into western countries is a mistake.

Thats all well and good.... in reality however they are fleeing a war torn land and they are not stopping, so how do you propose stopping them ?

Close the borders of Europe, let the rich muslim countrys take them, remember it is the religion of love so lets see some "love " from the other muslim countrys