I'm a 25 year old Pakistani Muslim male living in the USA.

a reply to: RepealTheLaw

The pledge of allegiance was not written at the time the constitution was drafted and was in fact not even published until 1892.

www.ushistory.org...

a reply to: dragonridr

Actually now that I think about it. When I travel I find that is when I identify as an American the most. It's kind of strange, like when you are not home you really know the value of it. But when I am here I always just figured it was kind of assumed. Sort of like stating the obvious.

a reply to: thothful

Thank you for your response earlier, I appreciate it.

Welcome to ATS.

a reply to: Bybyots

Thanks for the welcome

originally posted by: thothful
a reply to: dragonridr

Actually now that I think about it. When I travel I find that is when I identify as an American the most. It's kind of strange, like when you are not home you really know the value of it. But when I am here I always just figured it was kind of assumed. Sort of like stating the obvious.

I also noticed something similar to a friend I have doesn't sound like you put a lot of faith in the hadiths interpretation. Is there a reason or was it just lack of exposure being an american?

a reply to: thothful

Can you tell us about your screen name? I bet someone has already asked, right?

Sorry.

a reply to: Bybyots

Its a sort of a play on the word thoughtful. Thoth was an ancient egyptian god. He was said to be the god of the moon, magic knowledge and writing. His consort was Maat(Truth, Wisdom, Justice). I liked interpreting dreams at one point, so I once made a username a few years back and chose that thothful because I felt it was appropriate, since the moon was attributed to him. And I have always liked Egyptian mythology. I think its cool. Thoth is the egyptian version of Hermes thrice greatest.

a reply to: thothful

I think it's cool, too. I am also in to that stuff.

Wanna read my Moon thread?

a reply to: Bybyots

Sure why not? Can you please provide me with a link to it?

Thank you in advance.

a reply to: thothful

Awesome!

It was a collaborative effort between myself and another member to capture what we had learned here at ATS while we researched the subject between 2010 and the publication date on the thread.

It's kinda goofy, but it's also excellent Moon-subject-matter IMHO.

Please enjoy, if possible...

The 8th Sphere

a reply to: Bybyots

Okay great I am reading it. Helena Blavatsky, I have read part of The Secret Doctrine and other theosophical works. Interesting that you mention her.

Hail & Welcome Thothful,
For a long time I just accepted it was a universal rule of thumb in Abrahamic religions that the practice of sorcery was forbidden, yet the Bible is chock-full of evocations and invocations asking for divine or 'supernatural' forces to intercede and affect change in a series of events (ie, 'Magic). I understand that Sufi practices are considered to be the more 'mystical' side of Islam, but have not done much research myself in that area; however, people often confuse mysticism and magic, thinking them synonymous when they are not.
So, my question: I'm sure there is an occult-side to Islam (the practice of magic), and that it has been largely guarded & preserved from outsiders; so, are you at all familiar with this aspect of Islam, or could you perhaps point to some resources where I might be able to look deeper into this? Apologies for the poor-wording (stomach problems make for odd sentences).

Salaam,
93,
Reyn til Runa,
xo,
-kissy

a reply to: kissy princess



If I may answer that beyond what the OP will say

The Esoteric version of Islam is Sufism.

Rumi was a Sufi

a reply to: kissy princess

Hello kissy princess and thank you for welcoming me.

I understand mysticism to be a practice that is aimed at creating a kind of union between one and God, sort of like the Gnostic concept of achieving gnosis. Magic and sorcery, on a base level is a kind of practice one does in order to compel the forces of the cosmos to bend to the magicians individual will, I would call this kind black magic, as its sole aim is to the serve the selfish ignorance of the practioner. The other kind of magic, is aimed simply at facilitating the natural growth and patterns of the cosmos, in effect allowing one to surpass their own ignorance(ignorance keeps us out of sync with the world around us, and thus blind) so that they can align there will with the will of the Cosmos, or God if you will and thus act in tandem with the greater and more sublime will of the Almighty. I imagine that to be white magic.

As far as magic in Islam or some sort of inner teachings, I do believe that there are inner teachings.

Just on a common base level there are many superstitions one will come across, especially in pakistani culture. Here is one story from my mother, she said someone back home in her village was pregnant, and there was another woman, who was extremely jealous because she couldnt have a child. So she trapped a spider inside of a clay pot and buried it next to the pregnant woman's window. As the spider was deprived of its ability to eat, it eventually died, and so too did the baby in the mothers womb start to grow ill and wither away within her. After this tragedy her family found the dead spider buried in that pot. That is the kind of magic that one hears about. A lot of pakistani people wear a charm around their necks called a taveez. It is meant to ward away these kinds of evil black magic spells and spirits. There are many of these type of stories. The Qur'an does make mention of sorcery and black magic and expressly forbids it.

We are told to recite the surah Al-Falaq in order to keep us safe from such practices.

As far as a more sublime version of magic, and occult practices, there have been many Muslim Alchemists. I have an interest in Alchemy and the esoteric teachings. Alchemy generally is aimed at these higher sort of practices, it is some vulgar art solely concerned with turning lead into gold, but really does give a kind of blueprint to enlightenment through the use of symbolism and metaphor, which I cannot even really explain but find fascinating. Ultimately if you can garner some understanding of Alchemy, it will equip you with the mental tools and capacities to see deeper into the religious writings so one can pull out the inner teachings and recognize it.

Sufism is also very intriguing and some could say this would be the esoteric branch of Islam, but I am not so sure exactly. It is very mystical which I appreciate.

a reply to: Willtell

Thanks, Willtell

I understand Sufism to be more mystical in approach rather than magical; but maybe it is that Sufism harbors a broader spectrum of practices than those apparent to my very, very cursory & general knowledge of Sufism - I think many people would consider it as kin yet distinct from Islam as Modern Hermetic Qabala is to Judaism . I will investigate it further, and thanks again.

a reply to: thothful

Sufism is without a doubt the mystical aspect of Islam, you could take my word for it. If not look it up for yourself.


When I was your age I was in a Sufi order. I should know.


Btw welcome

a reply to: Willtell

Thank you for the welcome.

Yeah I have read some sufi poetry and found it incredibly enlightening. But I couldn't claim it was the formal esoteric chapter of Islam because I wasn't sure.

Thank you again.

Welcome to ATS. Glad to see you here :-)

I have some tough questions for you. PLEASE do not take it as a personal attack. I'm just fascinated by the fact that an intelligent person has fallen for a religion that is not of peace and tolerance.

There are countless ways to defend the Quran and be an Apologist for Islam, but what's written is written. In my opinion you either believe what Muhammad received as the word of God (and no, it is not ambiguous), or it becomes meaningless to call yourself a Muslim.

- Women (as inferior)

Qur'an 4:34 (Shakir)—Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

- Homosexuality (as a punishable offense)

And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful."[4:15–16 (Translated by Shakir)]

- Jihad (164 verses in the Quran)

I'm not going to quote all verses, but when Muhammad moved from Mecca to Medina he became more radical and belligerent. Religion of peace???

- Apostasy in Islam

Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."


Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."

Make no mistake, I could quote similar passages from the OT in the Bible, but I'm singling out Islam because of your OP.

Why have you chosen Islam over simple Spirituality to which you seem to have an affinity to? I think the shortcomings of the Muslim religion are self-evident and incompatible with modern society, but yet you call yourself a Muslim. Why?

a reply to: thothful

I couldn't claim it was the formal esoteric chapter of Islam because I wasn't sure.

Well that's cuz the Sufis were "Islamic Platonists".



It's confusing.

a reply to: thothful

My good friend…

You are an exceptionally bright young man, that’s clear.

And you will learn much because there's much to learn...


It appears, though, you have a good heart. So you have an edge because true knowledge comes from the heart