I'm a 25 year old Pakistani Muslim male living in the USA.

a reply to: AllIsOne

All the versus you quoted are dynamic versus that ONLY dealt with the time then( 1400 years ago) not necessarily forever…and certainly not today.

Do you know that those people use to bury their children? Kill them after birth and all manners of barbaric activity that basically was related to their pre-modern condition. Worshiped statues, took them to be literally a God. Were very backward and barbaric people.

Muhammad had to deal with all kinds of craziness, barbarism, and pre-modern ignorance. He was constantly in danger of being killed for his, at that time, radical ideas.

You don’t cast pearls at the feet of swine….as Jesus said.

You have to teach according to the level of the person.

So any intelligent force, God or whatever, will not impose radical reform on pre-modern people out of common sense.

Just go try to teach primitive people advanced anything and see how far you get

Then people would criticize God imposing too radical ideas on primitive people.

The idea is to evolve the early human out of barbarism slowly

Religion has done that to a great degree.


The jihad versus DO NOT apply to any other time but back then 1400 years ago.

That’s what you don’t understand


And that is the great error of the Jihadists

a reply to: AllIsOne

Hey thanks for welcoming me AllsOne.

I'll try my best to address all of these verses here. And please do not think I am trying to convince you that Islam is some solely peaceful religion. I am just trying to show you that these passages, when read by me, do not immediately convince and program me to kill people.

Your first verse 4.89

"They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper."

Okay that looks bad. Now lets take a look at the verse just before it and just after it.

4.88

"What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance]."

4.90
"Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them."

When it says do not take them as allies it is speaking about the "hypocrites." These are the ones who said they believed in Allah but actually do not. It says not to keep company with hypocrites and not to make friends with them. Frankly I think thats good advice. Then in the next quote it says that any hypocrite who tries to forcefully take you from your faith should be fought against. I don't have any problem with that because in the very next quote 4.90 it says "except for those who take refuge with people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you" and basically do not want to fight but live in peace. Come one AllsOne, I think anyone who reads all THREE of those verses together instead of taking 4.89 out of context will see what it means. And isn't it great that 4.90 at least gives you an out. I mean at the very least?

It is the exact same thing with your next example 9.11-12

I will post the verses right before and after:

9.10
"They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors."
9.11-12
"But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know."
"And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease."
9.13
"Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers."

They do not observe any kind of kinship or covenant of protection with you(the believer). This pretty much means that it is referring to someone who refuses to live peacefully with you.

And 9.13 is self-explanatory "And they had begun the attack upon you the first time?"

I will finish responding in another post as I do not know how many characters a post fits.

Continued...

a reply to: Willtell

Thank you for the kind words Willtell. What you have said warms my heart.

"I profess the religion of love,
Love is my religion and my faith.
My mother is love
My father is love
My prophet is love
My God is love
I am a child of love
I have come only to speak of love"

Jalaluddin Rumi

"My heart has become capable of all forms:
A pasture for gazelles, a monastery for monks,
A temple for idols, the Kabah of the pilgrims,
The tablets of Torah, the Book of Quran.
I profess the religion of Love.
Whatever direction love’s camels take,
That is my religion and my faith."

Ibn Arabi, Tarjuman al-ashwaq


I can never speak of Love as these great Muslim Sufis


Our true teachers


Masters of Love


good night all


and thanks to the young brother who has awakened some unity

a reply to: AllIsOne


And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful."[4:15–16 (Translated by Shakir)]

In most religious societies any kind of sexual indecency is worthy of punishment. In the United States we do not live by those laws and I do not think people should be publicly flogged for premarital or homosexual relations. Frankly I think these kind of strict laws are designed to hold society together, and keep a high standard of morality.

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

I'm guessing your problem here is with the part about beating women. I do not think one should hit women. I'll be honest with you, my dad used to beat my mom. But I love them both to death. He stopped when my oldest brother became big enough and asked him to stop. Then he never touched her again. And that is not to say she was perfect and innocent either. As a young man I can't just accept that all women are selfless innocent beings, because I know they must be just as selfish as men, since they are humans like men are. I don't want to beat my wife, because I always felt bad hearing my mother get beat as a child. You know what is bad, I thought that was normal until once I was talking about parents arguing in 6th grade with my friends and they said their dad had never hit there mom and some of them never even seen them argue. That was like unbelievable to me then. Overall I think the point of that verse is to take care of the women in your life. I can't really defend this one. Sorry.

As for the rest of your post, spirituality is a very individual way of living, religion proper is necessary for large groups of people. It at least gives you some common ground with the people around you and sense of community which is important. And I also think that the literal understanding of religion gives a person enough foundation to see the deeper truths within it if they are inclined to do so. You need the first foundation to grow your consciousness to a point to even begin to conceptualize the more sublime aspects of religion.

I don't think not taking a hardline literalist understanding of Islam makes it meaningless to call myself a Muslim. At bottom I know I am, because when I step into the mosque on a nice evening during ramadan, and I am lying down in the prayer room waiting for the prayer to start, I can close my eyes and feel peace within myself and in those around me.

Thank you ATS for the wonderful conversation and for welcoming me. It is getting late here and I must go to sleep.

Have a good night guys.

a reply to: Bybyots

I have started reading it and am about half way through. I will continue, I am liking it so far. It has alot of my favorite people, like Blavatsky, Gurdjieff and Rudolf Steiner.

Thanks again for sharing it with me

a reply to: thothful

Sleep good, Newbie.

a reply to: thothful

Is Sharia law apart of the core Muslim faith?

a reply to: thothful

Thank you for your honest answers.

My omission of preceding Quran passages was for brevity. It was not my intention to take them out of context. In spite of your Apologist's explanation Islam's extreme stance on Apostasy is pretty clear and well documented.

Take a guess! How many Muslim men beat their wives because the Quran/Allah say it's ok to do so? That alone would be a deal breaker for me and a dead giveaway that the religion is corrupt.

Re homosexuality: it baffles me that Allah seems to be so concerned what consenting adults do behind closed doors. Makes me wonder why Muhammed's marriage to a six-year old was ok? Maybe because he consummated the marriage when she was nine? Well, those were different times I guess … I will never understand how one can't see that hypocrisy.

I think your last two paragraphs are very revealing regarding your true religious motives. It's more of a club with special access privileges and with that comes the power to see "deeper truths".

I wish you all the best on your journey. I hope one day you will realize you can lie on your living room floor and experience the same peace within, but sans Islam. Religions are a parental/cultural and societal indoctrination. Some are worse than others.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: AllIsOne

All the versus you quoted are dynamic versus that ONLY dealt with the time then( 1400 years ago) not necessarily forever…and certainly not today.

I must have missed that footnote in the Quran.

330 am...between dream time episodes (as usual)
I seen a group of black clad MOPED riders... the group numbered around 15....whether men or women was unknown...the youthful group were dressed up like ISIS beheading teams with head-to-toe black shoes-pants-shirts-hoods all buzzing around on MOPEDS like a Shriner's Parade

I wonder if this vision suggests the future total acceptance of Jihadi Muslim presence in the USA....gangs dressed in black just prowling the streets ...(for what reasons?)

1. Do you agree with the concept of Takiiya" (A muslim's duty to lie to non-believers in order to further the spreading of islam)?

And if so..

2. Why should we believe any of your answers?

Welcome, Sir!

I hope you enjoy being a member of ATS. I'm sure your insight will be invaluable for many members here, including myself.


May The Wendy Smile Upon YOu

originally posted by: thothful
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

My best friend as a preteen was a Syrian boy who ended up becoming gay. It was sad because he never told me he was gay and just stopped hanging out with me. Frankly I don't think they are bad. I do believe that marriage is a religious institution, but if we can give them the same rights to "marry" then I wouldn't mind.

Frankly I don't think they are bad. I do believe that marriage is a religious institution, but

As soon as you say, "i don't think they are bad" you already placed them below you.

after that, you said "I do believe that marriage is a religious institution, but". Are you aware what this says of you?

Or we could just get rid of the entire outdated concept and then everyone would be fine and happy, how's that for "peace"?

a reply to: thothful

Thanks Thothful! Albeit spooky, I enjoyed reading the story and your response.

xo

-kissy

a reply to: jimbo999

You have the wrong definition of the word Taqiya. Just look at the first paragraph of Wikipedia. It says we can commit blasphemous acts if we are under duress or persecution. Basically, if you hold a gun to my head and say "eat pork" I can and Allah will forgive me.

I'm sorry but the way you described it was simply inaccurate.

Yes I believe in the concept of Taqiya.

a reply to: KingKelson

Thank you for the welcome KingKelson.

a reply to: St Udio

Maybe it can suggest that, though I do believe that to be unlikely. However I have had dreams in the past that suggested they were here. It was a strange one, I was walking in my old college town and looked at a shopping plaza and there was a store(?) called house of Isis. That took me off guard I'm like how can they "set up shop here" all out in the open.

I think an important part of your dream is when you mention Shriners parade because it suggests that you have no power to stop them, as they have some sort of license to be moving together like that so openly, maybe even obstructing traffic.
I think your dream is revealing that you feel powerless to stop them mostly. A lot of times dreams use exaggerations and hyperbole to help you "realize" something. I'd say the Isis parade is an example of that.

Hey but then again it could be an accurate depiction of what may come to pass even on a literal level.
Though I must say if it ever did that would show a serious problem in the decisions that this country has made for itself if it resulted in a Shriners parade of Isis fighters on the mainland.

a reply to: AllIsOne

You're welcome AllsOne and thanks again for participating in this thread.