Western Canadian Liberation Front

Originally posted by rayzor11
Should there be a safety net? YES...but should we throw endless money at a problem to see if it sticks? NO ...the welfare system was abused, and still is...throwing more money at people gives no incentive to change their situation...its human nature

I think can I can agree with you on the first half of your statement. If given the choice between a system where people who needed it could get help, and no system at all, I would certainly choose the former. And instead of throwing money at it, when a person starts welfare they should also have to have a plan to eventually get off welfare. Unless, or course, they are disabled or have other extenuating circumstances. The system needs to be redesigned in a way that would allow people to have an opportunity to get off welfare, and become taxpayers. But we do need to spend money to make sure people can survive at a reasonable level while looking for work, or maybe retraining, or healing from an injury and they don't have extended medical.

As for the second part, I'm sure there are some people who do want to take advantage of the system, and not work for anything. For the rest of us there is this little thing called pride.

Originally posted by sardion2000
Your post contained little in the form of any substance and you conviently ignore evidence(in every conversation we have had thus far) that doesn't fit your world view.

conveniently ignore? I responded point for point every one of your comments/insults/stereotypes...argeeing and disagreeing.

You say you have a degree in economics from Waterloo(highly doubtful because at University they at least "try" to teach you to attack all sides of a problem and not to conviently ignore things that doesn't suit you personally, did you take Political Science too

You sound like Harper/Harris/MulRony all rolled into one)

highly doubtful? I studied economics during the Free Trade issue...and if you've ever actually attended a university, you would know that right leaning profs are rare if not non-existent. There was no support for Free Trade at Waterloo - even though every economic model and theory proved its worth. Teach both sides at university? Please. Didn't take poli-sci though, sorry...but I can see how it works in real life - disagree with somone politically, and watch the insults fly! Its OK, nerds have to feel some self respect somehow... I guess politics is their own sport to cheerlead for....

and even if you are telling the truth that proves the Silver Spoon remark right there

) but from what little you have said you have not convinced me of that.

you seem obsessed with the class issue...so because I lean to the right, and attended university - I'm suddenly some spoiled silver-spoon kid? I wish...finally finished paying off my OSAP 5 years ago LOL...but we'll pretend I'm some rich blue-blood to fit your simple stereotypes.

You seem upset? Did I hit a nerve or somthing? OK BIG Economics degree "man", answer me this question. How does US Softwood Tariffs(and in turn Canadian subisdies) fit in with Free Trade as it seems to me there is no free trade there. What about our massive subsidies to Bombardier? What about the USA's farming subsidies and ours to boot?

I'm upset? Your the one on the attack, and seem to lose what little sense you have as soon as it lands back in your lap. The examples you are stating comes down to basically one issue - GOVT SUBSIDIES. As bad as we think we have it - the US thinks they're getting just as raw a deal. And it comes down to govt subsidies...I think we're actually agreeing here, but I don't see the connection to showing how Free Trade has not helped our economy since its inception.

How bout the artificial devaulation of the USD which is definately hurting our exports and entertainment industry, how is that Free Trade.

I thought the left believed the US currency value is falling because of Bush's insanity? Are you going to argue that Canada does not purposely de-value its dollar? Nevermind, you prob will

It isn't its plain old protectionism(and We have to respond in kind creates a more self-reliant and decentralized economy which also has the side benefit of being less vulnerable to terror attacks), all NAFTA has done is give the US economic leverage over us, and it may not be strangling us...yet but just wait the decline in the USD has just begun. Really the only thing we can count on the Americans to honor the "free" trade agreement is Oil trade and thats cuz they wanna get off of Saudi Oil "bud"

I knew a conspiracy was going to come up eventually...so let me get this straight, the US entered into a Free Trade agreement to gain leverage on Canada...and all the time planning to screw us 20 years later by devaluing their currency. Is that the same model for the EU with Germany planning another blitzkrieg? ...and you even threw in the oil for good measure...damn that Bush and his cronies. Anyway, thousands upon thousands of businesses (ones not operating with a govt ATM card) thrive every day under the Free Trade agreement.

SO TELL ME WHERE IS THE FREE TRADE GONNA START IM STILL WAITING! The only people I know who have made money off of free trade are those actively participating in the Markets or who were lucky enough to ride the Infotech wave. Basically People like me. If it wasn't for Oil, Ontario, Quebec our growth rate would be negative, plain and simple. Beware the double-edged sword, the Americans will learn as the process is starting to shift towards the Pacific Rim countries. Now when that is finished and all is said and done and if you are still posting on ATS then I will be the first to say "I Told ya so

the only people "you know" that have benefited from Free Trade....guess that argument is air-tight. Still haven't explained the record trade surplus we've been enjoying the past while....

" You think it will benefit us? What about the massive unemployment in the East Coast that is mostly the fault of NAFTA. Is that just a statistic to you Mr. "Economist".

What about the shift in manufacturing jobs...there are many more examples we could cite....but you actually believe that even w/o Free Trade, the east coast fisheries would still be thriving? Mr Economist? Your the one that insisted I take an economics course...kinda back-fired huh? At least I can base my opinions on something other than Econ 101 ...economics seemed so simple then eh?

the guys at work would tear you a new one if you spewed that crap on the trading floor(yup No long independant got a nice job at TD Waterhouse) Actually you'd probably be fired for falsifying your education.

Impressive - would have pegged you for a full time Starbucks customer "between jobs". Tear me a new one? Guess all of their experience on the "trading floor" could help me in my day to day life...can I get a celly number I can call? I can sure use some help. Tear me a new one LOL - whats your name - Winthorpe??!!

Well Razor I hope that fancy "degree" will give you comfort, there is already a movement to pull out of NAFTA led mostly by Mexico which Canada shares alot of the same grievances with the USA. If ya want me to list them I can do so..later I'm tired right now. I highly doubt you will win btw, even the American Conservatives will admit they got a sweet deal with NAFTA. They rolled all over our "embassador" ... more like Traitor, wonder how much they promised him....

My degree is actually kind of an embarrassment, not a comfort - started in Eng and ended up with an arts degree in Econ. Can't get much lower at Waterloo. Guess my rich parents couldn't buy me the degree I really wanted huh? Ah forgot, this is all a lie....

A movement to pull out of Free Trade??? You should know - being part of "the trading floor"and all - that the people that really run this country - the biz community - would never let it happen.

I had a pretty big movement today too...does that count?

*edit* quote scripting


[edit on 14-1-2005 by rayzor11]

So, how about we send up a couple of legions of 'volunteers' to help you out with this process?

[edit on 1/14/2005 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by djohnsto77

This site supports all of Canada becoming part of the U.S

Here are more links:

Ever hear the expression "when pigs fly"? John A. McDonald would turn over in his grave.

Originally posted by michboisnard
anyway...
here in quebec we don't really care about the rest of the canada
we wanna seperate to...we almost done it in 1995 but lost by 2 percent
or something like that....anyway all we want to do is to be recognized like a distinct nation apart of the rest of the canada
anyway we are french, we have completly other values, we don't support any war, we don't want no gun, don't want to become american ether...

still your canadian friend,
me

Salut mon ami. You forgot to mention that you want to be recognized as a distinct nation, benefitting from the Canadian passport and dollar.

Meme si vous etes francais (sorry don't know where the accents are on my laptop), we do have the same values for the most part. I had the good fortune of travelling our wonderful east coast this past summer and I heard French being spoken everywhere! The 400e Congres des Acadiens was happening and no matter where I went, from New Brunswick to Nova Scotia to PEI (unfortunately not enough time to get to NFLD - that's next time). French/Acadien culture is alive everywhere. I spent time also in Quebec and it was lovely!

And I'll let you in on something - French is alive all throughout the land - - no matter what batoche says. Et...c'est merveilleux. A Toronto, ca existe de la francophonie. You might try visiting and you may change your mind about separating.

My God, we're lucky to have such a beautiful country...we should just work together to make it better than it already is.

Originally posted by centurion1211
I'm not talking about official help from the U.S. government. No, I'm suggesting that there might be a number of people willing to come north and act as insurgents to help you get yourselves free.

Save your energy...you're going to need it for the Iraq draft coming soon to a mailbox near you.

Dude I can understand why you have a problem with us in Ontario and Quebec. BUT the Maritimes????? Sir you think you’re getting screwed, they get the shafted big time. And buy the way there are allot of people in Ontario who agree that the west is getting shaft.
Its simple Canada need leadership, if you guy separate it’s only going to make things worse for all of us. Just start putting Leverage on those ass’s in the Ottawa they’ll come around.

Always learning: Bonjour! I don't think we've met... but indeed, French is very much alive, and something the people in the West don't want to know is that the French population in BC and Alberta is actually *growing* because of the job opportunities there...

I'm glad to see that Rayzor has a university degree. I was starting to wonder if being on the left and having a university degree is a hindrance since for some people, it automatically puts you in the evil, leftist intellectual elite. So I'm glad to see a conservative who has a university degree...

And apparently, if you're a leftist, it stands to reason that your degree was paid for by your parents and you didn't work a day during your studies... It took me five years to pay back my $20,000 student loan for my undergraduate degree, and at the same time I was doing my Masters part time while working full-time AND paying my Masters myself...

Originally posted by Otts
Always learning: Bonjour! I don't think we've met... but indeed, French is very much alive, and something the people in the West don't want to know is that the French population in BC and Alberta is actually *growing* because of the job opportunities there...

Absolutely, Otts. I was in Quebec in the summer and had a nice conversation with a couple at the hotel I was staying at. They were from Trois-Rivieres I think. I spoke to them in French, which flipped them out already after they found I am from Toronto. I told them about my travels downeast and what I had encountered. Then I told them about Ontario and the West, which I already knew was alive with French. I told them that I thought many Quebecers have blinders on, don't travel outside the province and don't really know what Canada is all about and how magnifique is actually is...despite our problems. So culturally diversified and historically rich, even though we are young. A caring nation - we care for ourselves and others for the most part. Sure we are far from perfect...don't forget there are politicans running the country...all with their own agendas. But compared to a lot of places in the world...

I imagine that the members of the Western Liberation front haven't travelled much either....inside or outside Canada. I say we have it pretty damned good all things considered.

Maybe there is a country out there where you don't pay taxes and where there are politicans who actually only think of the people...I have yet to find it.

Slowly we improve ourselves while hopefully making a mark on the world too. I wouldn't trade this place for anything.

I think Batoche speaks for a minority of disgruntled folks in the West. Being pissed off with your government is one thing. Destroying the country is quite another.

And if Westerners want to whine, put themselves in the shoes of Newfoundland - who took it up the rear with Churchill Falls. Most of the revenue goes to Quebec, and Nfld gets diddly. No wonder they are upset now.

Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
We hate France, Quebec, & Eastern Ontario.

HOW can you HATE us like that!?!?!?!?! I'm a quebec person, french canadian and that is not nice
Do you know ME????? I'm a very nice gentle and soft young woman you are missing a whole lot for hating me dude
You should NEVER make generalization like that....makes a bad impression on you and your fellow west canadians

Amelia

Originally posted by Amelia

Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
We hate France, Quebec, & Eastern Ontario.

HOW can you HATE us like that!?!?!?!?! I'm a quebec person, french canadian and that is not nice
Do you know ME????? I'm a very nice gentle and soft young woman you are missing a whole lot for hating me dude
You should NEVER make generalization like that....makes a bad impression on you and your fellow west canadians

Amelia

Amelia - Hate and ignorance go hand in hand. If anything, feel pity for Batoche and others like him.

Originally posted by rayzor11 I used the Beaches reference to describe the trendy left-wing elitists that are so blessed with a wealth of knowledge, that they believe that their mission in life is to guide the rest of us mis-informed masses in terms of morals, culture, politics, etc. Sorry, but I can't "mix n mingle" with these types.

How wide is that brush of yours? Such statements are nothing but typical stereotyping of a group of people which seem to get your goat. In other words rayzor, it is a motherhood statement, levied because you have the need to place blame on others for your obvious feelings of inferiority. You would have a better chance at making your statements seem warranted if only you would support same with a reasoned analysis as to what it is these ”trendy left-wing elitists” of the beaches have done to provoke you so into spewing your guile in their direction.

Consumed by your obvious hatred of our evil neighbour to the south, you of course, missed the entire point. The frustration the west feels is the SAME frustration that the red states in the US feel - being ruled/dictated by the small (yet concentrated) pockets of urban, metropolitan blue. If you can't see that similarity, then there's no point debating further. Maybe if we had our own two "distinct" colors, you could maybe get a handle on what I'm talking about?

You are Kreskin now and can get into my mind and know what I think of America? When you attempt such statements like that with me know I am going to lob them right back at you, for what is worse rayzor, to hate another country or to hate your own, as you portray yourself?

I am well aware that some in the West feel frustration, this is a far cry from your earlier contention of “"blue state" Beaches mentality”” and your deliberate attempt at Americanizing this country called Canada by your myopic efforts at reducing our parties to colour code, and employing no less, a revision of the pallet. Your view of your west must also be seen through colour blind eyes, for the last time I checked, British Columbia was way out west represented in Ottawa by 22 conservatives and 14 of those metropolitan blues as you put it. Even Manitoba in the midst holds a 7-7 split. And how on earth can you suggest that small pockets rule when Ontario alone holds a higher population than all provinces to her west? So no, I do not see the similarity from any of your failed analogies, including that of the hypothetical with France, because as you can see, your little blue vs red stereotyping does not fit with this country which votes for riding representation in parliament and not the person chosen to represent that party.

And sorry about the insults and "wild assumptions" of your education - you just fit the mold...kinda like you first tried to peg my uneducated, redneck a**.

You pinned that on yourself my friend, and set out to prove it over and over as you do with:

talk about "painting with a brush shy of a few bristles" lol...a new twist to "the uneducated, redneck masses"...now we have an inferiority complex, are uneducated about the history of Canada, and use false/irrelevant logic. Thanks for the update! Now you can put the blinders back on....

Obviously, had I been incorrect you would have told me to take the blinders off, n’est pas?

are you sure you're not really American?

What are you having issues now with Americans? Please make up your mind as to whether I hate them, see them as evil or am one of them, for that very statement when put into perspective with your sweeping generalizations suggests you see them as evil.

I can't make up my mind which...

The way people in Canada are being manipulated by narrow minded politicians and truly ugly media hacks is incredible. (Not as badly as in the US but that is another story)

As it stands now, every part of the country has legitimate complaints. For example;
The West is politically marginalized by the the demographic weight of the Ontario and Quebec.
The Maritimes and Newfoundland have had their resources ruined by Federal politicians allied to short term minded economic elites from those provinces.
Ontario, especially Toronto gets its money sucked away by the other regions (other than Alberta which has had cash flow since the 1950s) to the point that essential services and infrastructure are being left to rot.
Quebec is still dealing psychologically with the fact that the French majority there were economically second class in their own province for at least 190 years.

But each of these and the other issues can be dealt with. And each part of the country can learn from the experience of the others.

We can really have the best of all worlds, and in some ways we already do except as far as weather goes.
If you have any doubts, spend some genuine time (not hotel and beach time) in an number of other countries and compare.

Let's listen and learn from eachother. It's not that hard. I genuinely like every region of this country and can imagine living in almost any region (and have already lived in many different parts).
In each of those regions I will meet essentially the same kind of people. The majority are decent, open minded, sometimes confused but good to be with. But there are others who are entirely manipulated and cannot seem to think for themselves and thus buy into all sorts of fantasies and misconceptions about themselves, the rest of the country and the world. It is that last category of people who could drag the rest of us into throwing it all away.

Separatism. Whatever region it comes from, amounts to one of three things;
1a) a power grab by regional politicians (who then go to great lengths in attempting to sell a fantasy)
1b) an attempt to cover up consistent failures by regional politicians
2) cheap aggressiveness on the part of people who are too lazy to think of constructive solutions

We don't have nirvanna but we can lurch, blab and tiptoe our way to a better future. The alternatives are not very good.

If what you said doesn't reach out to a spark of sober thinking in BattleofBatoche, he might be beyond hope.

Excellent posts somewhereinbetween and revengeogmakhno!

revengeogmakhno, you just got yourself a Way Above vote from me. You earned it.

DE

revengeogmakhno - here here! Very well said.

Canada is a complex country. I don't think that people generally grasp how complex it is.

Generally, the view of the country as the monolithic four blocks - the West, Ontario, Québec and the Maritimes - is becoming more and more outdated. Not only are the provinces themselves becoming increasingly different from one another, Canada is becoming more and more diverse in terms of population. You have the three founding nations, of course - the First Nations, the French (divided in three groups - the Québécois, the Acadians and the French Canadians in other provinces, and these three groups don't always see eye to eye) and the British (and again, an Ontarian businessman and a New Brunswick fisherman have very different outlooks on life). Beyond those founding nations... you have a good number of ethnic minorities.

This complexity manifested itself when attempts to amend the Constitution were made. It's obvious that any time you have a constitutional conference, you'll have x number of groups with their grocery lists. And the fact that each province has to cater to an increasing diversity of citizens makes passing those constitutional amendments quite risky. After all, why did the 1990 Meech Lake Accords fail? Because, namely, it was opposed by a native member of parliament in the Manitoba legislature.

Where am I going with this? The fact that Alberta and Saskatchewan passed the Meech Lake Accords and Manitoba rejected shows there is none of that Western unity touted by Batoche. The fact that Alberta is one of the only provinces to have rejected the Kyoto Agreements also shows this. It hasn't gotten into some people's heads yet that Canada is getting too diversified for any region - including the West - to pretend it stands united, whether it be for a cause or against the rest of the country.

Does this diversity mean Canada can't work? I personally think it means that Canada is "condemned" to be an open society where differences are celebrated rather than repressed, and that Canadian nationalism in the future will probably be based on that open society concept. Also... I repeat what I've said earlier, Canada will have to go back to being what it was originally - a Confederation, with more powers to the provinces, and not a federation like Trudeau wanted it. And ironically, it'll happen because of Trudeau's multiculturalism policy - as a national entity, Canada is getting too diverse to govern as a centralized federation.

But then, if the West decided to separate, it too would discover that it's already too diversified to be governed as a homogeneous entity.

One question that I have never seen addressed by advocates of seperation, and I think it's a pretty big one, is what about the First Nations? Do they get any say in this? Do they get their own referendum where they get to chose what country to go with? And if they do, what land do they get to take with them? I would guess over half of my province (BC) is under some kind of land claim by one group or another. I seem to recall a little problem in a place called Oka involving the Mohawks, and really don't think they would just roll over and do as told.

Now there's a group with a valid complaint. As I understand it First Nations people with status can move about freely, even over the border. Whether they can take the land with them is quite another story.

Originally posted by Duzey
One question that I have never seen addressed by advocates of seperation, and I think it's a pretty big one, is what about the First Nations? Do they get any say in this? Do they get their own referendum where they get to chose what country to go with? And if they do, what land do they get to take with them? I would guess over half of my province (BC) is under some kind of land claim by one group or another. I seem to recall a little problem in a place called Oka involving the Mohawks, and really don't think they would just roll over and do as told.

This is the saddest and darkest chapters in our history, and continues to this day in how they are disparaged. For all the benefits bestowed upon the natives of this land, they have not been given their due. If it were not for their exemplary efforts in aiding the British, the Union Jack may not be flying in Canada, and I happen to love Britain's flag flying alongside our own.