Eating Meat is Unethical

a reply to: woodwardjnr

cooked meat can be turned into energy much quicker slowing humans time to hunt, gather invent tools and have sex

I think you are mistaken ... sugar cane for example is Vegan ...
But no matter

originally posted by: Scouse100
Well looks like this is going to be an unpopular post but here goes...

I agree OP I do think eating meat is unethical.

One of the points that always comes up is that it's natural. I don't argue that humans have evolved eating meat. However, I feel that's now a moot point because, in my position, I can get all I need without it (easily).

This means that if I am eating meat I am doing so purely for my own enjoyment, I don't need it for my health or survival. I can't justify breeding, enslaving and killing (or even just killing) another sentient being purely for my enjoyment.

I don't usually get too involved in these threads but I have found myself wondering recently why it's perfectly fine to challenge and discuss almost every other standpoint except for this one. I would expect most veggies and vegans are what they are because they feel passionately opposed to the exploitation of animals, so with that in mind it would be weird if they never spoke out about it right?

That's an astute observation. For a website whose motto is Deny Ignorance, threads like this seem to attract a whole lot of it, from otherwise intelligent people.

Personally, I think it's a combination of two factors: First, because our rational brains aren't fully developed until the age of 25-30, by which time all manner of cultural programming has set in. This makes it strongly habitual. Secondly, the concept of veganism implies that non-vegan people are somehow guilty of being cruel to animals. It's like an insult before any word is even spoken.

Which is why I made sure to include my history of meat eating as an example that I don't consider meat eaters to be wrong, or bad people - instead, we're dealing with strong cultural momentum, i.e. social programming. It's entirely in our power to choose how we socially "program" ourselves though. Humans are amazing like that.

Cheers

originally posted by: okrian
It's too bad that this is a topic that is met with such impulsive denial and carelessness. For being a group of people that are supposed to deny ignorance, you're not doing a very good job.

'Meat is good, me like meat, bacon and more bacon' is the most status-quo sentiment possible.

There isn't one argument for eating meat that is viable. It's not economic, it's not good health-wise (in general), it wouldn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint (all our close relatives are herbivores), it's not viable if you care about cruelty at all, it doesn't make sense from a feeding-the-masses standpoint. There is nothing of a response except 'I'm stuck in my ways and this is how it is'... the exact type of response and approach to life that we here at ATS try to leave behind.

Well said. It's not a popular stance, but as you say, from pretty much every perspective eating meat is an inferior lifestyle. Not even taste-wise is meat eating superior. GQ's latest Best Burger competition went to a meatless burger.

I hunt and do enjoy it. That being said, when I started hunting I was excited about my kills, childishly excited. Now when I harvest an animal no matter what it is there's a part of me that feels bad. I think it's just getting older and appreciating life more. Earlier this year as I watched the deer I put an arrow through die I wanted to end his suffering quicker. Afterwards I was telling my wife that I probably have another 5 years before I wont be able to do this anymore. I never expected those feelings and I never expected to utter those words. I would never tell anyone else what they should do but that's probably where I'm heading. I did however teach my daughter to hunt so if she follows through when I stop I'll always have venison to eat.
I did spend 10 years of my life as a vegetarian. It was the healthiest time of my life. I chose to because I was on a weight loss kick. I lost 110 pounds and kept it off for ten years. I didn't lose the weight because of not eating meat, it was all of the decisions I made at that time. I eventually stopped and started eating all of the fried stuff, the sweets and yes the meat. I would explain to people that I just didn't want it, I told them that I was all for killing animals.
I don't think it's unethical by any means but I do feel that if people had to kill their own meat very few people would. Most don't have the stomach for it.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: okrian
...it wouldn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint (all our close relatives are herbivores...

It makes complete sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Where else did our ancestors get their required vitamin B12 from? Did they head over to the local GNC for supplements?

Bacteria produce B12. Not animals. And that bacteria used to be omni-present in our environment before modern water-sterilizing procedures came about. I thought Freemasons were supposed to at least occasionally dabble in intellectualism...

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: okrian
There is nothing of a response except 'I'm stuck in my ways and this is how it is'... the exact type of response and approach to life that we here at ATS try to leave behind.

The response presented is really more mocking in tone, because the vast majority of arguments presented against eating meat are exaggerations or outright falsehoods.


Am I going to keep eating meat because "I'm stuck in my ways"? You're goddamned right I am; but that's a gross oversimplification of my opinion. Nobody has ever presented a credible argument against the eating of meat.
Against factory farming maybe, but not against the consumption of meat.

If you can refute anything in my OP then please, do so. Don't just ignore it and say "Oh it's probably wrong."

I dare you to read it, and to *honestly* think about it instead of arrogantly assuming it's flawed or exaggerated. Show me your best game, if you really want to play. So far, none others before you have even made a dent in the OP's argument.

a reply to: burdman30ott6
a reply to: ketsuko

interestingly you both made the same example about fish. Ok what about big furry cute animals. Like cows, deers, donkeys, pigs, goats... Do they know how to butcher them also and are they witnessing that also? you know where there are litters of blood, loud screaming when cutting the neck at the beginning. Would you like to teach or witness them this also?

please be honest and share the truth.

Look I grew up on a farm, and I was there and even today I know how to butcher just about anything. But would I let my kids see that. hell no! Even if I turned up OK. But it is not natural to witness that as kid and I would not like to put those images and sounds of suffering into any kids head. Not even once. It made a huge impression on me. In both ways good and bad. But the bad ones are in my opinion too large and not worth it.

Well that is my opinion after being there to many times watching my father doing this stuff. It disgusts me even today or maybe due to that experiences as a child I developed disgust. And I think many people would be disgusted if they were witness to the process of making meat. From birth to the freezer.

But if I was in a situation where I would starve to death or butcher a rabbit or an animal. Well let's just say that I would not probably stay hungry, but that would have to be really my last option for survival.

originally posted by: Ceeker63
a reply to: Son of WillP.E.T.A = People eating tasty animals. Animals where placed on earth for our consumption. People that deny that simply are ignorant of their human ancestry.

Westerners used to keep Blacks as slaves.

Obviously we should go back to that era, and anyone who denies that is ignorant of their human ancestry.


See how insanely stupid that argument *actually* is? Try again. Think harder.

a reply to: Puppylove

Sorry, I think you may have misunderstood my post. I am talking about not eating meat rather than veganism. I welcome improved animal welfare but at the end of the day I think it's wrong to breed animals for the purpose of killing and eating them when it's not necessary.

I must argue that 375 million vegetarians do make a difference, although there is much waste which is disgusting and desperately needs addressing, livestock will generally be bred according to demand. I don't think we can deny that reduced demand would lead to reduced supply (even if there are still tonnes of waste).

I don't necessarily think it's always wrong to keep animals and even use animal products in certain circumstances, but I don't want animals to suffer or die for my enjoyment.

originally posted by: artistpoet
I actually love many modern Vegan foods ... I am a bit of a Vegan Junk Food fan

Though I do not eat animals or birds etc ... I do eat fish
I do not eat any dairy products or eggs

Like I said I love modern Vegan food ... but dislike Preaching

Dislike "preaching"?

Or do you dislike it when you are reminded of your bad habits? Because I'm making logical arguments that are either true, or false. If you can show anything I've said to be false, then please do so.

Humans aren't lions. Lions must hunt for survival. Humans don't need to.

Of course that lions must to hunt to survive, where you see that the lion has a farm of antelope or zebra?

originally posted by: ketsuko
I have always wondered what a vegan would do when faced with a situation where they are in a very poor village and being offered more food than their hosts generally eat in the average day, but horror, upon, horrors, they are offered real turkey in the bowl, not tofurkey.

To refuse is to insult their hosts.

To accept is to eat the dreaded meat.

That's a very interesting scenario.I guarantee you that most vegans would indeed have trouble with that transition.

I covered that with my second caveat in the OP, but to answer you directly - and I can only speak for myself - I probably would eventually succumb to the hunger and partake. I used to be an avid fisherman, and would make great effort to make it least painful for the fish. it would be in my nature to hunt with the purpose of minimizing the suffering of my prey.

I wonder if that surprises anyone. I naturally go to the thought, " What about other humans? If that were the "only" food source in an area, would you hunt and kill others? " I ask without judgment. It is an intriguing question to me.

Cheers

Really, there's nothing ethically or morally wrong in eating meat at all.

You formulated a personal code of ethics and used it to label others who don't follow your code as somehow less moral.

The whole thing is a fallacy.

Live your life in the way that makes you happy, but try to remember that you aren't better than anyone else.

There is nothing wrong with eating meat and killing for the table. It's entirely natural.

Telling people what to eat.....is unethical.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Son of Will
First note: I ate meat for 24 years before changing my diet as an experiment, 

Please explain to me why it is that former smokers, former alcoholics, and former meat eaters are, almost without fail, always preachy, self righteous individuals who believe it's their job to make sure every one around them makes the same personal choice they made in relation to whatever "vice" they previously enjoyed? I've never understood this. You made a choice, good for you... now butt out of every one else's business and move on with your own choice.

It's very simple. I mention that specifically as a foundation for conveying the sentiment that I don't judge anyone else who eats meat. I understand the cultural and social pressures that form such a mindset.

It's interesting that you managed to take a very clear and concise statement of mine, yet come away with the exact polar opposite in meaning. It seems your prejedices are preventing you from thinking clearly.

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
a reply to: SeaWorthy

This argument doesnt hold up though , to those who butcher their own meat or hunt their own game on a regular basis

yes a vast majority of consumers out there have no idea how this process is done...

But to make the accusation that have come up on this thread, that eating meat is immoral, and has no factual basis in our evolution is outright ridiculous.....

Meat and meat protiens, along with dairy proteins , provide nutriets that our bodies need....

I work out 7 days a week, and lift every single day, I keep a balanced diet and eat really clean.....

I tried for 5 months at one poitn to go completely vegan and maintain my routine, I couldnt do it....

My body couldnt handle my active routine on purely vegan substitutes , even with all the crap that vegans and vegan website pushed , that I needed to take to maintain that balance

I had a huge loss of energy, my strength training went way down, my endurance went way down, even my muscle mass went way down....

Despite that, I had a freaking closet full of crap I had to take just to try and maintain the levels i previously did, just eating a balanced diet of red meat, fish proteins, chicken , eggs and dairy....

Bottles and bottles of waste and excess along with a HUGE jump in my supplement intake....

The amount of money it took to try and maintain that was ATROCIOUS!

IF you want to talk about viable, it seems to me that being an omnivore is much more viable.....

There are thousands of vegan athletes out there. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but If you failed, it's most likely because you were under-carbing, or making some other classic mistake. It happens all the time, when people change diets without doing proper research first. Blaming the diet is not reasonable when there are thousands of examples of long-term vegan athletes who either maintained or improved performance after going vegan.

Just google search "vegan athletes", there are countless examples.

My 1st-generation iPad here makes every aspect of web browsing a monumental task so I can't easily bring links in.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: NautPsycho
Eat meat with no spices and tell me if it's still yummy. In its natural state it's foul # to the tongue.

1. That's either nonsense or an indication that you're buying inferior, antibiotic laden meats and/or are a crappy cook.
2. Ever tried an unseasoned potato?

The real comparison is this: a living, breathing cow, versus an unseasoned potato.

You have to slaughter the cow, deal with all the blood, guts, hide, feces, not to mention the creature will try to NOT die, forcing you to dehumanize yourself to the point where causing extreme, unnecessary suffering is not wrong...

Versus a potato.

If the two sat side by side, would you still consider the cow to be tastier? Considering all the disgusting work that you must do to the cow before it even begins to appear tasty? You see, your comparison is deeply flawed. The same anount of work that goes into preparing slaughered animal into clean meat, if put into potatoes, would make something easily as satisfying and vastly healthier.

Also, a potato grown in high quality soil will be vastly superior in taste to what's found in supermarkets. Similar to your organic grass-fed beef or whatever.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: Son of Will

So you made the choice to stop eating your natural diet and exclude meat. Now you want everyone else to do the same.

OK. Now how do we get other omnivores and carnivores to also stop eating their natural diets?

How do we replace the calories, nutrients and manage to feed the world after removing meat? Let people starve for "ethical" reasons. Have you thought this through?

Very stupid arguments. Super moderator? Rofl.

1) I'm talking about humans. Show me a carnivorous or even another omnivorous species that A. understands ethics, and B. is capable of living a vegan lifestyle. Obviously humans are alone here. You really don't understand that simple concept, do you?

2) There's not a single nutrient humans need, which is not found easily, abundantly, and in the proper ratios, from plant-based foods. That's why there are millions of successful long-term vegans. Or did you not know that, nor care to look it up?

3) Oh I certainly "thought it through" - obviously, you didn't think at all before responding. Shameful.

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
a reply to: Son of Will


Empathy is terrible for hunting?

Tell that to any native tribe.....

How can you be so obviously, glaringly wrong about so much and still maintain course?

This is bordering in delusional/cult vegetarianism mentality

It does intrigue me how such an obviously-wrong stance, like "empathy improves the ability for hunting", can be so adamantly and arrogantly argued.

I think the best example of why that is laughably stupid is the success of psychopaths in our modern world. They prey on others, much like hunters, so successfully that our society's positions of power are vastly over-represented by those with psychopathic qualities. Cops, politicians, bankers... The case is so firmly proven against you, so easily demonstrated, that I really wonder if you'll be dumb enough to continue arguing it.

All this because you're too arrogant to admit that you got the basic definition of "empathy" wrong. I love it =)

I might be cocky myself, but at least I'm right. And I know it. Which is why I'm cocky. By page 4, not a single criticism that holds water. I'm hoping for better game tomorrow. I know at least a few of you are clever enough to at least throw a dent in the OP.



Getting some shuteye now.

Cheers =)