Eating Meat is Unethical

a reply to: Son of Will

I don't eat much meat but I don't see the problem with it. I love bacon and burgers as well. I also love chips which are made from potatoes and salads as well.

Humans evolved in a way that we require both otherwise our teeth would be flat like a cows. Just because you can survive without it doesn't mean we aren't naturally meant to do it.

Another thing, 1 cow could essentially feed a family for at least a week if not a month right? That is 1 life.
Lets look at a salad. How many different kinds of things are in it? I bet at least 20 plants lives were taken for that single salad. Did you know that each one of those plants was once a living thing. Are you racist against plants and not even consider their lives? It's life was ended so you could survive. That's the same as with meat. It is unfortunate but in order for us to survive we have to take the lives of something else. It is how our body works. I

The only way a human could eat without taking somethings life is if they were eating space dust and only in the vacuum of space at that. If you were to grab a handful of dirt here on earth and eat that how many thousands or millions of bacteria life did you take? You think you can crack open a fresh rock and eat it here on earth? I doubt it because as soon as it's cracked open there is an extremely high chance that some sort of microscopic organism has landed on it and then you just took its life when you ate the rock.

I wonder though, are vegetarians against meat that is created 100% in a lab without having ever come from any animal? Is that cool with you guys?

originally posted by: crazyewok

Case closed!

Allow me to retort:

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: Son of Will
Eating Meat is Unethical

If you are asserting meat eating's 'unethicality' denies that meat eating is also 'ethical', you are in error.
(See; E-Prime)
First, you imply that 'ethics' are conditional, and I say that they are not! Do not make the mistake of conflating the insanity and conditionality of 'morality', judging people and things as 'good/evil/bad'.
'Ethics' are an 'unconditional' feature of unconditional Love!

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS recognized by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

An example of an 'ethic' is;

"Do NOT do to 'others' what you don't want done to you!"
(EVERYTHING in the Universe (and everyone), is 'others', and 'others' Is Self!)!

Animals CAN be raised and slaughtered ETHICALLY at every step along the way.
That, obviously, is not the case with capitalist factory farms, which is not to say 'ethical treatment' does not happen!

The bible, in one of it's few lucid and relevant passages mentions, when asked about 'unclean meat/food', says that it is all 'clean' if consumed "with prayer and thanksgiving"!
In a state of unconditional Love, which transcends all 'karma', whether 'personally torturing and killing the animal, or consuming the product of other insane and greedy people, meat is, thus, 'clean' to eat.
Consumption of meat, along with other things, is our physiognomy, our nature, and there is not anything 'wrong' (unless one makes arbitrary 'judgments' (morality)) with being the cutting edge of hundreds of millennia of evolution!
Unconditional Love allows 'us' to transcend the 'merely' animal/physical nature.

You are most certainly 'correct' in that eating meat is (can be seen as) unethical!
Eating meat is (can be seen as) ALSO quite ethical, depending on Perspective!
Heads and Tails = same One Coin! *__-

You have completely confused yourself with that hodgepodge of thoughts. You make so many mistakes, but let me address one glaring one: You can't respect an animal by killing and eating it. That's psychopathic. Try pulling that ridiculous logic with a sentient creature who can speak for itself, like a slave in the 1700s.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

Sorry, I prefer to get my B12 the way nature intended, by eating tasty animals.

Humans traditionally got their B12 from soil and water. It's our sterilized way of living nowadays which prevents us from getting it, the way nature "actually" intended.

Either way, remind me of that logic next time you drive to the supermarket and buy pre-slaughtered and cleaned meat. Yeah, real natural lifestyle there, buddy.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
I think hunters have more respect and empathy for animals than your average vegan.
They participate in the circle of life and are grateful for the animal that gives them sustenance.
They intimately know how animals live, what they eat, where they sleep and where they fit in the grand scheme of life.
I despise factory farming for it's cruelty make no mistake.
We take supermarket meat for granted and care nothing for the life it was taken from.
Every disconnect from nature that becomes routine distances us further from the source of life and the creator.
Same goes for farmed vegetables really - those you grown at home keep us connected to our Earth.

Do hunters need to kill other animals for survival?

No?

So that makes it a choice. They choose to destroy sentient life where no need existed.

Fundamentally unethical.

originally posted by: Necrobile
a reply to: Son of Will

We, as humans, are omnivorous. That means genetically we're meant to eat plant and animal. Animals eat each other in nature all the time. We as humans have the ability of higher thinking, but for some reason the one thing we keep forgetting is that in the end, we're still animals.

You can say it's unethical all you want, with any proof you want, but I feel it's unethical to think we're above nature. If you wish to believe that it's wrong to eat meat, then good for you. But I believe in balance, and prefer a diet of both. As for the suffering, yes, it sucks that meat is mass-produced in the ways that it is, but unfortunately we've got entirely too many people on this planet. If supply couldn't meet demand, well, we may know what happens there soon enough. XD

Omnivorous means we CAN get nutrition from both plants and animals. Not that we were "meant" to. It's basic nutrition science - every substance we need for survival can be found easily and abundantly from plant-based sources.

That's why we call diet a "choice". Vegans choose to not cause unnecessary suffering to other sentient creatures from their dietary choices.

You don't have to participate in the annual slaughter if billions of sentient creatures. Just leave them alone.

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: eNumbra

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: MrConspiracy
We're natural herbivores as a species, right?

No, we are naturally omnivores.

Humans have canine teeth.

Why is it even questioned?

I know.

Some people don't; I was just explaining that an ignorant question is based on an ignorant assumption.
Because they're not as big as a dogs... blah blah blah.

Carnivore vs omnivore.

I know, I was explaining that an ignorant question is based on an ignorant assumption.

I figured.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
Then why do our tongues have Glutimate flavor receptors? TO taste the meat we haven't evolved to eat?



About empathy. I say Empathy is what makes humans such great predators. Think about it rationally. Predators without an abundant tool set of natural weapons built into them like say a Tiger does with it's speed and claws has to use cunning to to outsmart their prey. A good cunning predator has to be able to think from the perspective of the prey. To be able to put themselves in their shoes and understand their behavior and emotions. It's how predators drive animals into ambushes by understanding their psychology. To understand their psychology you have to be able to empathize with said prey to first be able to put yourselves in their shoes. Ergo, empathy is more than just a tool to maintain social courtesy. It's one of our greatest killing tools!

I never said anything about evolution. But since you brought it up: primates are primarily herbivorous, and so the last 10,000,000 years of our evolution geared us towards that lifestyle. Humans did start eating meat more regularly, and so evolved mechanisms to deal with that, but nutrition science has painted a crystal clear picture over the last 70 years. It's associated with a long list of disease.

Check out this video: compilation of almost 100 studies, most of them new.


And it's simply our intelligence combined with a strong tribal-like mentality which made us such successful hunters. Empathy is terrible for hunting - maybe you're thinking of the ability to predict another's actions? That's creativity and intelligence. Empathy is the ability to feel the emotions of another; not read their thoughts.

a reply to: Son of Will

primates are primarily herbivorous, and so the last 10,000,000 years of our evolution geared us towards that lifestyle.

Wrong!

The primate evolved in tropical forests, their diet was mostly equivalent to a vegetarian; fruit, succulent leaf... Essentially carb but not "grain" based.

Then forest has been gradually loosing ground to grassland plains, monkey that evolved to survive in those plains evolved to become human. This period is a phase of adaptation to a hunter diet that lasted for millions of years. At the end, some have become hordsmen. This is a period of meat eating and massive brain development. Brain power permitted to create tool, like silex knife to cut meat and hunting accessories. Language have also helped group hunting. This is why human does not have dentition caracteristics of carnivor, and no claw, they used knife and tools, they used their brain.

After that, human have developed agriculture, since only at max in the last 10kyears.

Monkey that stayed in the forrest did not evolve due to unchanging habitat and stayed the same.

originally posted by: DarmokAndJalad
Vegans who remove themselves from the ecology are no different than oil company CEOs who destroy for power. Two sides, one coin. Better to live in harmony with the environment than to project our own morality on the world.

What the hell are you talking about?

And how are you not projecting your own morality on the world by arguing for cruelty to animals?

And lastly, is the human species living in harmony with the environment? Does eating meat make you more in tune with the world?

Try thinking a bit more before responding. Your arguments are foolish.

a reply to: Son of Will


Empathy is terrible for hunting?

Tell that to any native tribe.....

How can you be so obviously, glaringly wrong about so much and still maintain course?

This is bordering in delusional/cult vegetarianism mentality

Sorry for taking a while to respond. More replies than I anticipated, and I got a bit busy with Star Wars stuff =)

I'll try to respond in order over the next day.

Thanks for following me down this very uncomfortable road, I know it pisses off a lot of people. But try to see the other side, is all I ask. There is no need for so much death and suffering. And you CAN make a difference from changing dietary choices. It's really a massive impact. Especially on one's own psyche.

Feeling cognitive dissonance fading away is one of the best feelings imaginable. It's like looking at the world, and finally seeing it the way it is, and not the way you've been trained to see it.

On that note, happy holidays everyone =)

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
a reply to: Son of Will


Empathy is terrible for hunting?

Tell that to any native tribe.....

How can you be so obviously, glaringly wrong about so much and still maintain course?

This is bordering in delusional/cult vegetarianism mentality

If you have an argument to make, or are able to respond to mine, feel free.

But it seems all you have are insults. They don't even make any sense.

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

My first job was a fishmonger and you can't take all the worms out.
cod has the most in my opinion.

originally posted by: PeterMcFly
a reply to: Son of Will

primates are primarily herbivorous, and so the last 10,000,000 years of our evolution geared us towards that lifestyle.

Wrong!

The primate evolved in tropical forests, their diet was mostly equivalent to a vegetarian; fruit, succulent leaf... Essentially carb but not "grain" based.

Then forest has been gradually loosing ground to grassland plains, monkey that evolved to survive in those plains evolved to become human. This period is a phase of adaptation to a hunter diet that lasted for millions of years. At the end, some have become hordsmen. This is a period of meat eating and massive brain development. Brain power permitted to create tool, like silex knife to cut meat and hunting accessories. Language have also helped group hunting. This is why human does not have dentition caracteristics of carnivor, and no claw, they used knife and tools, they used their brain.

After that, human have developed agriculture, since only at max in the last 10kyears.

Monkey that stayed in the forrest did not evolve due to unchanging habitat and stayed the same.

You didn't refute a single thing I typed.

Are primates primarily herbivorous? Yes.

Are we descended from primates? Yes.

Are we better adapted to eat plants because of 10,000,000 years of that diet, compared to 30-50,000 years of regular meat eating? Yes.

So, what exactly are you refuting?

So far every criticism has been either emotional or irrational. Please try to think more clearly before responding.

a reply to: Son of Will

Look agree to disagree.
you are not winning any arguments because there is no argument.
We are animals who like meat.
I noticed you skipped my comment on the fact if we did not eat them there populace would be in the thousands and not billions.

Just to add I think it disgusting that people care more for animals than kids.
rspca gets five times more then the nspcc....

Insects wrong also op?
Will feed the world one day insects.
or is that bad and unethical?.

a reply to: Son of Will

And you didn't understand a single thing I typed.

Then forest has been gradually loosing ground to grassland plains, monkey that evolved to survive in those plains evolved to become human. This period is a phase of adaptation to a hunter diet that lasted for millions of years. At the end, some have become hordsmen. This is a period of meat eating and massive brain development. Brain power permitted to create tool, like silex knife to cut meat and hunting accessories. Language have also helped group hunting. This is why human does not have dentition caracteristics of carnivor, and no claw, they used knife and tools, they used their brain.

Is it not clear enough? Herbivorous monkey EVOLVED to human by ADAPTING to eat MEAT.

It is the EVOLUTIONARY PRESSURE that FORCED brain development due to HUNTING.

Are we better adapted to eat plants because of 10,000,000 years of that diet, compared to 30-50,000 years of regular meat eating?

I'll say it AGAIN:

Then forest has been gradually loosing ground to grassland plains, monkey that evolved to survive in those plains evolved to become human. This period is a phase of adaptation to a hunter diet that lasted for millions of years.

REPEAT ==> " ... lasted for millions of years"




ETA:

Direct from Wiki: Human evolution

... the Hominini tribe (humans, Australopithecines and other extinct biped genera, and chimpanzees) parted from the Gorillini tribe (gorillas) about 8 million years ago; and, in turn, the subtribes Hominina (humans and biped ancestors) and Panina (chimps) separated about 7.5 million years ago.