Phoenix Lights - UFO witness summary (11/3/2015)

a reply to: JimOberg
I have talked to one person (including his wife), that what they saw was a huge boomerang shaped craft with huge, but dimly lit orange lights. This couple are not part of the the public record. They only confided with me because they had to say something and let it go. I can't mention the venue.
This person and his wife are very sane and are VERY involved with Scottsdale issues. They are wealthy and have a lot to lose for making such statements.

Kratos

originally posted by: TeaAndStrumpets.....

Still don't believe in binocular vision, do you, Jim? Or the simple, move-my-head-a-foot-to-the-left kinds of triangulation we perform constantly every day?.....

This is getting delicious. Tell me, based on your expertise, the effective maximum range of two-eyeball binocular vision. Then to expand that range by convergent views three times wider apart, multiply by three, and what do you get?

a reply to: JimOberg

No doubt their estimations could be off, but observing something directly overhead travelling at slow speeds, its hard to come away with any other conclusion except they got a really good look at it. If nothing else, they should have at least been able to hear it if it was planes.. On the other hand, maybe these people are really dumb to be blunt, but thats the only way it makes any sense as far as A10s.

a reply to: Baddogma

Another thing that bothers me about the "it was all A-10s" explanation is the darned size of those amber lights... the people who told me they were under it and close said the individual lights were hundreds of yards wide .. or at least as big as a neighborhood block as triangulating something on the move and an indeterminate distance above is difficult ... and along with the silence, does that sound like a flight of A-10s?

There seems to be a number of legitimate issues with the A10s but I think its as simple as just pointing out that its not really a known thing that A10s can cause such a mass effect. If it was A10s, then what makes this particular fly over so unique? I would be absolutely fascinated if this could be demonstrated at an air show. Shouldn't be that difficult to fly some A10s around at night and see how many people see them as a single giant thing flying around.

originally posted by: Kratos40
a reply to: JimOberg
I have talked to one person (including his wife), that what they saw was a huge boomerang shaped craft with huge, but dimly lit orange lights. This couple are not part of the the public record. They only confided with me because they had to say something and let it go. I can't mention the venue.
This person and his wife are very sane and are VERY involved with Scottsdale issues. They are wealthy and have a lot to lose for making such statements.

Kratos

Thanks for sharing. How do such stories compare with p. 13, 14 and 17, from a spectacular French "giant mothership UFO" case exactly 25 years ago today, described [and explained] here: satobs.org...

The reason this sighting is significant is because of the duration and the number of witnesses. Imo, this rules out misidentification (a formation of planes), and meteor swarms as well. I also firmly don't believe it's any sort of black project, for a few reasons.

Also the Air Force did not help their case at all. They would have been better served to just play dumb and hope the thing didn't fly directly over Phoenix. Instead, two and a half hours after the first sighting.. which was by a (ex) cop in Nevada, they drop a triangular formation of flares in clear sight of Phoenix.

What odds are there are a supposed planned military drill, using flares and a location never used before, dropping flares in a triangular formation, would occur on the SAME night.. indeed, happening at the exact same time.. as hundreds of witnesses reported seeing a triangular UFO. A drill that had had never been done prior, nor since.

Would a formation of planes be mistaken for something else for 5 hours? Even to the point where people were watching it through binoculars as it disappeared over the horizon? I personally think I could recognize a formation of planes within moments. It fooled everyone, apparently. Astounding!

Meteor swarms? For 5 hours? Ridiculous. Even more so.. that they were seen in a linear progression both direction-wise and time-wise from north to south. That is almost as ridiculous as the opinion that planes chasing the UFO in Tehran in 1972 that had their electronics effected, were chasing Jupiter.. because they were just that stupid.

This case is amazing because of the duration of the sightings.. because of the number of sightings.. because of the close-up sightings.. because of the military involvement. The only explanation that imo that could be proposed that wasn't the above, is the good ol' standby argument, "it was a black project!" that is used when all other explanations are expended. But again, I think the type of craft (size, speed and silence), where it was flown (over public areas), and the distraction / diversion by the Air Force clearly points to it -not- being anything military. Social experiment? Please.. that is simply reaching for an explanation, so the alternative doesn't have to be considered.

a reply to: fleabit

But it was a black project...

originally posted by: JimOberg
This is getting delicious. Tell me, based on your expertise, the effective maximum range of two-eyeball binocular vision. Then to expand that range by convergent views three times wider apart, multiply by three, and what do you get?

Not delicious. Ridiculous. And a little sad to witness, actually.

How strong can your argument really be, Jim, if you find yourself having to argue that binocular vision, depth perception, natural parallax, etc., aren't relevant here?

Is it actually your position that at a few hundred feet or less, those things are untrustworthy and unreliable?

How are we all driving around in cars? Especially at night? Why are we all not constantly walking into walls? The answer is that we are all, each of us, walking trigonometry machines. And when eyeball separation alone doesn't give us the info we need, we instinctively move our head a little, or move our whole body, until we can get a gauge on how close something is to us. Our survival has depended on that skill, so it's no surprise that we're pretty darn good at it.

So again... all those Close Encounter cases. Sightings from a mere few hundred feet or less... with there being surprisingly many from under 50 feet.

No reasonable person thinks that misperception/misidentification remains a valid go-to argument at those short, 10's-of-feet distances. Especially during daylight. Especially when the object has a large angular size.

So it seems to me that you're being intentionally obtuse here. But I guess you have no choice. You seem to realize that once you admit that there do exist some UFO cases where misperception / misidentification can almost certainly be entirely ruled out, the game changes completely....

Obviously, misperception / misidentification is a potential issue in most all UFO cases. I'll give you that. But "most all" is not "every," and the distinction there is HUGE.

originally posted by: TeaAndStrumpets

Unless we want to just throw out 95% of all witness testimony, that is... in which case, why are we even bothering?

Go back and take another look at the witness testimony - try the NUFORC site for that night and particularly the reports submitted within a reasonable timeframe.

You will find that a high majority of reports are very consistent with a formation of planes. Jet engines were heard in one instance and planes were identified ny telescope and binocular on at least 3 occasions. Then we have the video of what looks like planes.

Therefore, beyond reasonable doubt in my eyes we have a formation of 5 planes in a chevron pattern, speed, heading, timing all match. Then we have the later flare drop.

To believe the minority reports as accurate you need to accept that a massive chevron craft with 5 lights was seen heading in the same direction at the same time as the planes were seen.

To me it seems more likely that perspective, with the planes in a wide formation and passing overhead, caused the minority of witnesses to misinterpret what they were seeing.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

There seems to be a number of legitimate issues with the A10s but I think its as simple as just pointing out that its not really a known thing that A10s can cause such a mass effect. If it was A10s, then what makes this particular fly over so unique? I would be absolutely fascinated if this could be demonstrated at an air show. Shouldn't be that difficult to fly some A10s around at night and see how many people see them as a single giant thing flying around.

It may not be that unique as how many other reports of chevron craft could be attributed to the same thing - not saying they are just that we don't know.

What was fairly unique was flying in formation with that lighting on such a clear night when more than usual were skygazing due to Hale Bopp.

Don't forget that, after word spread of that sighting later that evening many would attribute the flare drop to a solid craft as well.

a reply to: fleabit

Where do you get 5 hrs from ?

There were two events, the first lasting a max of 20 mins for any one observer and the second around 5 mins !

a reply to: TeaAndStrumpets

How are we all driving around in cars? Especially at night? Why are we all not constantly walking into walls? The answer is that we are all, each of us, walking trigonometry machines. And when eyeball separation alone doesn't give us the info we need, we instinctively move our head a little, or move our whole body, until we can get a gauge on how close something is to us. Our survival has depended on that skill, so it's no surprise that we're pretty darn good at it.

So in reality, we have no need for car insurance?

You really need to bring up your findings to people in psychology, get published and stop wasting your time arguing here.

What you are describing is something completely different and completely unrelated to the type of perceptions described in UFO sightings. Moving "instinctively" is a pretty common thing amongst most animals. Describing UFOs is a trait that is unique to humans.

Consciously perceiving and consciously recalling something is vastly different than instinctively being able move through space which is mostly a subconscious activity. Consider sleep walking where people walk around while sleeping AND dreaming.
consider blindsight.

Blindsight is the en.wikipedia.org... of people who are cortically blind due to lesions in their striate cortex, also known as primary visual cortex or V1, to respond to visual stimuli that they do not consciously see.[1] The majority of studies on blindsight are conducted on patients who have the "blindness" on only one side of their visual field. Following the destruction of the striate cortex, patients are asked to detect, localize, and discriminate amongst visual stimuli that are presented to their blind side, often in a forced-response or guessing situation, even though they don't consciously recognise the visual stimulus. Research shows that blind patients achieve a higher accuracy than would be expected from chance alone.

By the time someone describes a UFO to their favorite UFO researcher, that perception has been altered and revised and we are no longer talking about perception only, we are now talking about memory and recall as well.

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
a reply to: [post=19998205]chunder....you were doing ok till ya said the witnesses must have seen the reported super close slow fly-over....were mistaken as it could have been high altitude formation of Air Force jets......
OH, please somebody....quit being metro and go outside and get a clue on the difference......for the love of Pete......before I croak from all the posts by good persons....but they may have lost all the good sense God gave them.......

I would have agreed with you a coupel of days ago but even the slow fly over fits with a formation of planes at high altitude - were the high majority (and video) mistaken or the minority - or do you suggest both accounts are true ?

I was watching a documentary about the phoenix lights on Netflix. Why do all the witnesses have to have pony tails? It's like with the ancient aliens guy with crazy hair. If you want to be taken seriously, get a hair cut, shave, put on a suit. I have to suspect it is done on purpose tho to discredit ufologists and make them all look liked burnt out hippies.

originally posted by: HorusChrist
I was watching a documentary about the phoenix lights on Netflix. Why do all the witnesses have to have pony tails? It's like with the ancient aliens guy with crazy hair. If you want to be taken seriously, get a hair cut, shave, put on a suit. I have to suspect it is done on purpose tho to discredit ufologists and make them all look liked burnt out hippies.

I think it's an AZ thang.

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: HorusChrist
I was watching a documentary about the phoenix lights on Netflix. Why do all the witnesses have to have pony tails? It's like with the ancient aliens guy with crazy hair. If you want to be taken seriously, get a hair cut, shave, put on a suit. I have to suspect it is done on purpose tho to discredit ufologists and make them all look liked burnt out hippies.

I think it's an AZ thang.

that's another problematic thing, it may be unfair and politically incorrect, but it's so hot in Arizona, people get their mind fried and see things. Just makes them a little less trustworthy. This is no offense to anyone in Arizona. If I get proven wrong because pure proof of that v shaped craft comes out, I'd be glad to admit it.

originally posted by: TeaAndStrumpets

How are we all driving around in cars? Especially at night? Why are we all not constantly walking into walls? The answer is that we are all, each of us, walking trigonometry machines.

My son is a walking calculus machine. Never studies or does homework, but get's A's.

He drove my wife's car directly into a mailbox at night and said it was a flying rock from the road that did the damage.

I'm constantly banging my head into low hanging [under 6' 6"] objects. Hit a bolt on an I-beam once at a full gallop... so hard it stopped my body completely. I woke up in a pool of blood. I have to believe that I'd have been better in calculus if I hadn't sustained so many head traumas.

originally posted by: chunder

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

There seems to be a number of legitimate issues with the A10s but I think its as simple as just pointing out that its not really a known thing that A10s can cause such a mass effect. If it was A10s, then what makes this particular fly over so unique? I would be absolutely fascinated if this could be demonstrated at an air show. Shouldn't be that difficult to fly some A10s around at night and see how many people see them as a single giant thing flying around.

It may not be that unique as how many other reports of chevron craft could be attributed to the same thing - not saying they are just that we don't know.

What was fairly unique was flying in formation with that lighting on such a clear night when more than usual were skygazing due to Hale Bopp.

Don't forget that, after word spread of that sighting later that evening many would attribute the flare drop to a solid craft as well.

I'm not opposed to the idea of planes causing this to happen, I'm opposed to people thinking that they have shown this to be the case. Put simply, we don't really know if a formation of A10s could cause these types of perceptions. I am all for speculating and drawing from other cases and all that....but just show where there is one documented case of planes in formation causing people to see things in the details described. Or is there another phenomenon here? like an inordinate amount of burned out hippies living in AZ?

originally posted by: TeaAndStrumpets

originally posted by: JimOberg

This is getting delicious. Tell me, based on your expertise, the effective maximum range of two-eyeball binocular vision. Then to expand that range by convergent views three times wider apart, multiply by three, and what do you get?

Not delicious. Ridiculous. And a little sad to witness, actually.



How strong can your argument really be, Jim, if you find yourself having to argue that binocular vision, depth perception, natural parallax, etc., aren't relevant here?



Is it actually your position that at a few hundred feet or less, those things are untrustworthy and unreliable?.....

I had interpreted the comment to mean that human binocular vision showed that the lights in question were close.

The range for accurate depth perception via that method is between 40-60 feet in all the sources I've seen, and with a wider separation [moving head around] maybe a few hundred feet at most.

People judge greater distances while driving cars by estimation based on KNOWN SIZE of more distant objects.

All these factors are absent when judging unknown lights against a dark sky.

So any estimation of the range to the object[s] will be based on guesses and assumptions.

Don't you agree?

originally posted by: HorusChrist

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: HorusChrist
I was watching a documentary about the phoenix lights on Netflix. Why do all the witnesses have to have pony tails? It's like with the ancient aliens guy with crazy hair. If you want to be taken seriously, get a hair cut, shave, put on a suit. I have to suspect it is done on purpose tho to discredit ufologists and make them all look liked burnt out hippies.

I think it's an AZ thang.

that's another problematic thing, it may be unfair and politically incorrect, but it's so hot in Arizona, people get their mind fried and see things. Just makes them a little less trustworthy. This is no offense to anyone in Arizona. If I get proven wrong because pure proof of that v shaped craft comes out, I'd be glad to admit it.

I started working here the year after the Phoenix lights event. I did a lot of business with a subcontractor in Phoenix. During one phone conversation I mentioned it to the head of engineering there and his response was pretty level-headed and matter of fact. There was no doubt in his mind something weird was going on. This was not something that was reported regularly, or at all on this scale. Whatever the explanation(s) I wouldn't chalk it up to Arizonan wackiness.