9/11 Bombshell: Methodical Deception -- Rebekah Roth

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yes, I'm aware of all that. It is an integral part of the official story.

Whether YOU consider it relevant or not, without the confusion sown amongst the ranks and the FAA/NEADS interface, VG was an essential part of what happened that day. The essential part, all things considered.

NORAD and USAF respond to the Payne Stewart incident within moments, but they cannot find their ass with both hands on that Tuesday morning because of VG and related activities.

a reply to: Salander

Payne Stewart's aircraft had the transponder active the entire flight, and was intercepted by aircraft that were already airborne flying nearby. It also wasn't intercepted "within minutes". The last known radio transmission was at 0927 EDT (1327 Zulu) as they were climbing through 23,000 feet. Six minutes later there was no answer. The first F-16 didn't intercept them until 0954 CDT (1454 Zulu). That's over an hour before it was intercepted.

There is a huge difference between that and losing a transponder in an area that doesn't have primary radar to see the aircraft. If the FAA radar doesn't see the aircraft NORAD doesn't, unless it's near a military base that has a primary radar. The FAA was telling NORAD where to look for the aircraft and they didn't have any more idea than NORAD. Unless you're going to claim they were affected by Vigilant Guardian too.

As for the alert aircraft, it's easily verified by multiple sources, regardless of whether they believe the official story or not.

a reply to: Salander

NORAD and USAF respond to the Payne Stewart incident within moments, but they cannot find their ass with both hands on that Tuesday morning because of VG and related activities.

It took well over an hour for an USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base to intercept Payne Stewart's aircraft. Notice that I said test pilot.

Let's take a look at another incident where a Lear Jet was stolen in Virginia and flown to Denver, Colorado.

Death Ends 1,600-Mile Flight Of Learjet Stolen by Mechanic

DENVER, May 25— A flight mechanic who did not have a pilot's license stole a private jet in Virginia early today and flew it 1,600 miles to Denver, where he shot himself to death as the authorities closed in, officials said.

www.nytimes.com...

Let's take a look at another incident.

Mind If I Borrow It?

The day an Air Force mechanic commandeered a North American F-86

And then there was Airman First Class George R. Johnson. A 20-year-old mechanic at Williams Air Force Base in Arizona, Johnson skipped the preliminaries; on the evening of September 20, 1956, he took a Sabrejet up for a ride. Up to then, Johnson’s piloting experience amounted to two hours with an instructor in a Piper Cub.

www.airspacemag.com...

We can also take a look here.

9-11 Fighter Pilot: We Wouldn't Have Shot Down Hijackers

The pilot of one of two U.S. military jets that were scrambled on 9-11 moments after kamikaze hijacker Mohamed Atta slammed American Airlines Flight 11 into Tower One of the World Trade Center said Wednesday that he wouldn't have been able to stop the attack even if he intercepted the plane.

"If we had intercepted American 11, we probably would have watched it crash," the pilot, identified only by his military codename "Nasty," told the Cape Cod Times. "We didn't have the authority to (shoot it down)."

As part of the 102nd Fighter Wing flying out of Otis Air National Guard Base on Cape Cod, "Nasty" and his partner, codenamed "Duff," were scrambled at 8:46 a.m. as news of Flight 11's hijacking reached the base.

Coincidentally, at the very moment, the plane slammed into Tower One.

"We didn't suspect they would use kamikaze tactics that morning," the pilot told the Times. "We weren't ready for that type of an attack, to quickly shoot down one of our own airplanes."

When United Airlines Flight 175, piloted by Atta's hijack-partner Marwan Al Shehhi, crashed into Tower Two at 9:02 a.m., the two F-15's were about 71 miles - eight minutes away - from Manhattan.

By the time "Nasty" got word of a second hijacked plane, it had already smashed into Tower Two, he told the paper. But the idea that the F-15's, had they been scrambled earlier, might have been able to shoot down the hijackers is pure conjecture, "Nasty" told the paper.

At the time, military pilots had no such standing orders. Absent a presidential directive they had no authority to blow a commercial airliner out of the sky.

www.freerepublic.com...


113th Wing, Andrews AFB

The F-16 pilots from Andrews AFB were not familiar with NORAD techniques and its protocols nor were they in the communication loop of NEADS and NORAD. To further underline that point, Lt. Colonel Phil Thompson said it best when he said:

"We've never been an air defense unit. We practice scrambles, we know how to do intercepts and other things, but there's a lot of protocol in the air defense business. We obviously didn't have that expertise..."He was the chief of safety for the 113th Wing, Andrews AFB.


NEADS personnel expressed considerable confusion over the nature and effect of the order

The NEADS commander told us he did not pass along the order because he was unaware of its ramifications. Both the mission commander and the senior weapons director indicated they did not pass the order to the fighters circling Washington and New York because they were unsure how the pilots would, or should, proceed with this guidance.

...the Langley pilots did not know the threat they were facing, did not know where United 93 was located, and did not have shoot-down authorization before United 93 crashed.

www.democracynow.org...

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Salander

Payne Stewart's aircraft had the transponder active the entire flight, and was intercepted by aircraft that were already airborne flying nearby. It also wasn't intercepted "within minutes". The last known radio transmission was at 0927 EDT (1327 Zulu) as they were climbing through 23,000 feet. Six minutes later there was no answer. The first F-16 didn't intercept them until 0954 CDT (1454 Zulu). That's over an hour before it was intercepted.

There is a huge difference between that and losing a transponder in an area that doesn't have primary radar to see the aircraft. If the FAA radar doesn't see the aircraft NORAD doesn't, unless it's near a military base that has a primary radar. The FAA was telling NORAD where to look for the aircraft and they didn't have any more idea than NORAD. Unless you're going to claim they were affected by Vigilant Guardian too.

As for the alert aircraft, it's easily verified by multiple sources, regardless of whether they believe the official story or not.

It is refreshing to encounter a poster that understands that the first intercept of Payne Stewart's airplane was accomplished by USAF aircraft already airborne. Kudos to you sir!

And so by that statement you hit the crucial point--NORAD and USAF responded so quickly that THE SYSTEM had "eyes on" the target before it was out of the state of Florida. The System responded within moments and had eyes on within moments. THAT is the relevant point.

That the main intercept by designated F-16s did not happen until midway up the Alabama-Georgia line does not diminish the fact that the system had eyes on quickly.

That the line upon which the main intercept was also the demarcation line between Central and Eastern time zones explains how numbers were confused in the translation.

Relative to 9/11, the important point the relevant point is that the system responded quickly when there were no TX going on. Conversely, when TX were being conducted, the system could not find its own ass with both hands.

a reply to: Salander

First, an hour is NOT quickly. Even if it was by an airborne aircraft an hour is an unacceptably long time for an aircraft to be flying comms out in busy airspace.

Secondly, there WAS an exercise going on in Florida that day. That's why the first aircraft involved was a test pilot. He was part of an ongoing exercise at the time.

a reply to: Salander

The transponder on Stewart's jet, was not shut off, so the FAA always had an identified target on a radar scope. Not so on 9/11.

a reply to: cardinalfan0596

True. The reasons for that are that on 911 the radar was spoofed with injects and false targets. On the day of the Payne Stewart incident it was not spoofed.

On 911 Vigilant Guardian was underway. In the Stewart incident there was no training exercise being conducted.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Salander

First, an hour is NOT quickly. Even if it was by an airborne aircraft an hour is an unacceptably long time for an aircraft to be flying comms out in busy airspace.

Secondly, there WAS an exercise going on in Florida that day. That's why the first aircraft involved was a test pilot. He was part of an ongoing exercise at the time.

There are several units stationed at Eglin, including the 33rd Tactical Fighter Wing.

One of Eglin's biggest functions is testing. So if you pay close attention when there, you will notice that many aircraft based there have ET on their tails as unit designation. ET stands for Eglin Test. The point is that on any given day in Eglin airspace tests are being conducted.

Yes, I've been there many times.

On that day of Stewart, there were no TRAINING EXERCISES being conducted, though there were probably several aircraft out flying off various test parameters. Clearly that was why the A-10 was up, and why he was past bingo fuel and had to RTB.

a reply to: Salander

I'm probably better aware of what Eglin does than you are. I know exactly why they have ET on the tail, and that doesn't mean that they aren't still flying regular missions as well as their testing missions.

The pilot of the F-16 was involved in a training exercise when he was told to intercept the Lear.

The pilot of the Eglin plane was Air Force Capt. Chris Hamilton, 32. He had spent the early morning practicing dog-fights over the Gulf of Mexico against a slower A-10 jet, also from Eglin. This was a normal training exercise—swoops and rolls, imaginary warfare—held two or three times a month. Hamilton was surprised by the order to chase a civilian plane and investigate. He never had done this.

www.golf.com...

You seem to be under the misconception that training exercises are only large scale. They're going on every day out of almost every base. There were a number of aircraft flying out of Eglin that day doing various exercises.

All of which is still irrelevant, because it still took an hour to intercept the aircraft. You can keep saying how fast it was, but it was still over an hour, and that was when they knew exactly where the aircraft was, exactly where it was going, etc.

a reply to: Salander

So you're saying that they were spoofing the FAA radar?

No. Just no. The computer targets were on the NORAD screens. NORAD was getting their information as to where the aircraft were seen and courses directly from the ATC centers that had been tracking the aircraft.

The aircraft that were hijacked changed or turned off their transponders after they were hijacked.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Yes, it is irrelevant as you say.

But what is RELEVANT is that from GNV to EUF it is 200 nautical. Subtract about 40, because the Lear went NORDO about 40 NW of GNV, and you're down to about 160 nautical. Using 250 for the climbing Lear, that is about 37 minutes or less for the "formal" intercept by 2 ships near EUF.

And that means that the single A-10 and single F-16 had eyes on still in Florida airspace, at some point around 20 minutes after NORDO.

So in fact, the system had eyes on pretty darn quickly, and the "formal" intercept at EUF was about 37 minutes.

No Vigilant Guardian and the system worked pretty well. Factor in VG, and they were a whole different outfit.

Not strange IMO, but predictable.

a reply to: Salander

Look at the timeline. It was over 60 minutes from last contact to eyes on. Not 20 minutes. The last call from ATC that was acknowledged was at 1327 UTC. It wasn't intercepted until 1454 UTC. They changed timezones prior to being intercepted so looking at the local time you have to take that into account.

I'm what universe is that fast? Or 20 minutes?

Vigilant Guardian had nothing to do with the FAA control centers that were passing information to NORAD.

a reply to: Salander

And that means that the single A-10 and single F-16 had eyes on still in Florida airspace, at some point around 20 minutes after NORDO.

That is false. It took well over 1 hour to intercept Payne Stewart's Lear Jet. The problem began at 09:33 EDT, but Payne Stewart's Lear Jet wasn't intercepted until 09:54 CDT

You are confused because you failed to take the change in times zones (EDT and CDT) into consideration.

a reply to: skyeagle409

And the A-10 wasn't involved in the intercept.

a reply to: Zaphod58

And the A-10 wasn't involved in the intercept.

You've got that right. An A-10 is not the plane of choice to intercept a Lear Jet, but then again, an A-10 is not an interceptor.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Salander
Vigilant Guardian had nothing to do with the FAA control centers that were passing information to NORAD.

This is a very important point most people refuse to acknowledge about NORAD's reaction on 9/11. They were completely dependent on the FAA notifying them of any trouble happening within the interior of the United States because they did not monitor it. They were completely clueless until they were at notified by the FAA.

They had no prior warning on flight 175 before it crashed.
They had no prior warning on flight 93 before it crashed.
They only had two minutes warning on flight 77 before it crashed. They found it less than a minute before it impacted.
They only had seven minutes warning on flight 11 before it crashed. They never found it on radar.

The radar systems they used were based on the coast, and even those radars were tuned not to show the interior of the United States. Here's what NEADS personnel said about their mission and radars:



Robert Marr –

"Marr noted that on 9/11 NEADS was not directly connected to national interior radar systems. Those radar systems were and are monitored by the FAA."

"Looking out." posture:

1) the "looking out" mission:

"NEADS primary job is to identify aircraft crossing over the Air Defense Zone (ADZ). The second part of this, according to Marrs, is the "friendly by origin" issue within the ADZ. Anything that was beyond this military responsibility was "in the hands" of civil authorities."

2) physical capabilities:

"Marrs commented that NEADS was using 14 radar, and many radio sites. He noted that the sites are focused around the perimeter of the coast. He noted that the radar coverage varied by the sites themselves. He noted the sites were optimized for their off the coast vision."

Dawne Deskins –

"Previous to 9/11, the alert bases were based on the Air Defense mission of looking out over the water."

"Deskins states that since the mission prior to 9/11 was air defense NEADS trackers were actively looking to initiate "symbology" on unknown tracks. But prior to 9/11 this was not applied over the US."

"That location is now covered by radar, but on 9/11 there were not as many radar sites feeding into the sector. According to Deskins, the aircraft was both inland and low, and the NEADS radar did not pick it up at the location the FAA controller gave her."

James Fox –

"Fox understood NORAD's air defense mission as a task to survey and identify all aircraft entering United States airspace."

"By posse commatadus NORAD was not allowed to intercept aircraft internal to the United States. That mission was considered a law enforcement mission. Fox noted that he was trained to that point of understanding."


"On 9/11, the capability for the radars on the coast is to give information at most 150 miles, and the radar will not see below 10,000 feet. There was radar coverage for the Langley fighters on their way to Washington. There was no good low level picture."

Stacie Rountree

" Rountree noted that the radar that was in place on 9/11 did have some coverage on the interior, but did not receive low altitude feeds."

On the advice of a friend - It was this article that prompted me to join ATS.

At first glance it occurs to me that its possible that this Rebecka Roth material is nothing more nor less than a "limited deceptive hangout," and because of that I'll go on to label her 'Sayanim' as well by virtue of her very strong Jewish - some say Zionist - connections. This could also lead one to suspect a Mossad connection with her as well. My recent research would indicate that she has actually purloined most of her "bombshell" material from other hard working conspiracy researchers like myself. None of its new as far as I can determine and most of it is speculative in nature as opposed to 'factual'.

Her outright stealing of material from other researchers on the internet can be said especially of the Gelatin - B information. Do not ever trust what a person like her - a person with such suspicious connections - has to say, particularly if it implicates another Jewish person, which is the case here.

To my thinking this is a false narrative -- seductive as all get out -- with just enough of those delicious tidbits - of those kernels of truth in it to allow the seduction to seem believable.

Sayanim -
A sayanim (sing. Sayan; Hebrew: helpers, assistants) is a Jew living outside Israel who volunteers to provide assistance to Israel and/or the Israeli Mossad utilising the capacity of their own nationality to procure assistance. This assistance includes facilitating medical care, money, logistics, and even overt intelligence gathering. Estimates put the number of sayanims in the hundreds of thousand.
While not official Mossad agents and sometimes acting without explicit knowledge, they may work in the capacity of unregistered representatives of the government of Israel in their respective nations.
Generally-speaking, these non-Israeli Jewish volunteers are asked to engage in legal activities that will not bring them into trouble with the authorities, such as using Wikipedia to spread propaganda. There are exceptions, however, as for example in the case of Jonathan Pollard, the U.S. Naval intelligence employee who engaged in espionage on behalf of Israel's intelligence agencies and whose exposure by the FBI strained relations between the U.S. and Israel.

Limited hangout:
A limited hangout, or partial hangout, is a public relations or propaganda technique that involves the release of previously hidden information in order to prevent a greater exposure of more important details. It takes the form of deception, misdirection, or cover-up often associated with intelligence agencies involving a release or "mea culpa" type of confession of only part of a set of previously hidden sensitive information, that establishes credibility for the one releasing the information who by the very act of confession appears to be "coming clean" and acting with integrity; but in actuality, by withholding key facts, is protecting a deeper operation and those who could be exposed if the whole truth came out. In effect, if an array of offenses or misdeeds is suspected, this confession admits to a lesser offense while covering up the greater ones.

a reply to: Boone 870

I have stated in the past that our air defenses were geared to watch for aircraft outside the borders of the United States, not for intercepting civilian aircraft within the borders before 9/11.

a reply to: skyeagle409
Yeah, you would think that be a pretty simple concept to grasp, but I guess it's rather difficult for some. As Col. Marr said, anything from within the United States is considered "friendly by origin." It's not like NORAD was set up with radar feeds inside the United States because they were expecting Russian Bears and Migs to be launching attacks out of Iowa.

a reply to: Boone 870

Bollocks. Utter rubbish, to be more precise.

08:52:40

NASYPANY: Send 'em to New York City still. Continue! Go!

NASYPANY: This is what I got. Possible news that a 737 just hit the World Trade Center. This is a real-world. And we're trying to confirm this. Okay. Continue taking the fighters down to the New York City area, J.F.K. area, if you can. Make sure that the F.A.A. clears it— your route all the way through. Do what we gotta do, okay? Let's press with this. It looks like this guy could have hit the World Trade Center.
...

08:57:11

NASYPANY: Think we put the exercise on the hold. What do you think? [Laughter.]
...

09:04:50

—Is this explosion part of that that we're lookin' at now on TV?

—Yes.

—Jesus …

—And there's a possible second hijack also—a United Airlines …

—Two planes?…

—Get the # out …

—I think this is a damn input, to be honest.
...

09:21:50

NASYPANY: O.K. American Airlines is still airborne—11, the first guy. He's heading towards Washington. O.K., I think we need to scramble Langley right now. And I'm—I'm gonna take the fighters from Otis and try to chase this guy down if I can find him.

NORAD-tapes

Nasypany/ NORAD was even fast enough to scramble Langley before the Pentagon got hit, they only lost their window of opportunity due to the "coincidental" detour through Giant Killers airspace.

So... now you guys even dare to deny adequate radar-data at NORADs disposal? You think Nasypany used a fancy cristal ball in conjunction with some Tarot-cards for his decisions or what? Kinda lovely bummer.

Well. Methodical deception it is, you must be spot on then. Carry on, please!