9/11 Bombshell: Methodical Deception -- Rebekah Roth

a reply to: PublicOpinion

They were getting their data from the FAA. They knew what the FAA knew. If you think differently then feel free to find all the military radars NORAD was using.
The FAA informed them of an unknown aircraft heading towards Washington, so they sent the Langley jets there. They didn't know what the target was and didn't find it until too late.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Never said they didn't use FAA data. But thanks for clarification anyway!

They didn't know what the target was and didn't find it until too late.

And why did Nasypany send them to DC just in time?
Langleys detour over the ocean is another part of the bigger puzzle conspiracy-wise, sadly those Giant Killer tapes got "lost". Probably in the same ocean.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: Boone 870

Bollocks. Utter rubbish, to be more precise.

Bollocks you say? Below is a link to the JSS radars NORAD had access to on 9/11:

s256.photobucket.com...

Feel free to provide evidence that NORAD had access to more radars than that on September 11, 2001.

Thanks for linking the NORAD transcript. It proves that NEADS knew six minutes after American 11 impacted that it was real world. You should've linked to the part where in the very first call to NEADS one of the members on the operations floor asked if it was real world only to have it clarified that it was, in fact, real-world and not an exercise. They knew from the very first notification that it was not an exercise.

Nasypany/ NORAD was even fast enough to scramble Langley before the Pentagon got hit,

And where did Nasypany get his information from that led to the decision to launch fighters out of Langley? I'll answer that, from the FAA.

they only lost their window of opportunity due to the "coincidental" detour through Giant Killers airspace.

There was nothing "coincidental" about it. NEADS issued a scramble order that sent Langley fighters to the north. Instead of waiting for clearance approval from the FAA to send the fighters to the north, Langley Tower sent them to the east to get the F-16s airborne as fast as possible, just like they always trained to do. It all went wrong when Langley Tower didn't tell anyone and assumed that Giant Killer/NEADS would get them going in the right direction once in their airspace. Giant Killer assumed they were heading east because of updated flight strip put in the system that sent them to the East to get them airborne faster. They were allowed to fly that way until NEADS noticed the error and corrected it.

So... now you guys even dare to deny adequate radar-data at NORADs disposal? You think Nasypany used a fancy cristal ball in conjunction with some Tarot-cards for his decisions or what? Kinda lovely bummer.

Nope, I'm not denying anything, the quotes I posted earlier is what the members of NORAD said about their own radar coverage. Why do you choose to ignore what they have to say?

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Flight 77 had their transponder turned off, so most radars wouldn't see it. By the time it got near a primary radar, with the confusion over Flight 11 there was no time for Langley to get there.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

And why did Nasypany send them to DC just in time?

Because Colin Scoggins from Boston Center called NEADS and said that they believed American 11 was still airborne and heading towards Washington, D.C. It had nothing to do with what NEADS could see on their radars.

Langleys detour over the ocean is another part of the bigger puzzle conspiracy-wise, sadly those Giant Killer tapes got "lost". Probably in the same ocean.

I would recommend brushing up on the subject at the below link. It's kind of a long read, but you could use the help.
www.oredigger61.org...

a reply to: Zaphod58

They would've been in DC well within the time-window if there would've been no detour. That's the point. Prove me wrong please! I'm too lazy to look into the exact timing right now.



a reply to: Boone 870

There was nothing "coincidental" about it. NEADS issued a scramble order that sent Langley fighters to the north. Instead of waiting for clearance approval from the FAA to send the fighters to the north, Langley Tower sent them to the east to get the F-16s airborne as fast as possible, just like they always trained to do. It all went wrong when Langley Tower didn't tell anyone and assumed that Giant Killer/NEADS would get them going in the right direction once in their airspace. Giant Killer assumed they were heading east because of updated flight strip put in the system that sent them to the East to get them airborne faster. They were allowed to fly that way until NEADS noticed the error and corrected it.

That's one version of the story. I saw an interview with one of the pilots in which he states something entirely different. I'll try to dig into that at times if you haven't already done so.

but you could use the help.

Thanks, but I already know what Miles Kara is talking about. And he is with me on that one, with regards to "Perfect World Scenario".

a reply to: PublicOpinion

At the time the "known" threat the FAA was watching was what they believed was American 11, which they thought was still airborne and heading to Washington. They had no idea that 77 was inbound at the time Langley launched, as they didn't have it on radar yet. It wasn't detected until they were airborne and heading the wrong way.

Even if they were over Washington before it hit there would have been very little they could do. The authorization to shoot down hijacked aircraft wasn't given until well after the Pentagon was hit. They could have tried to force them off course by getting close, but they couldn't have stopped it.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

That's one version of the story. I saw an interview with one of the pilots in which he states something entirely different. I'll try to dig into that at times if you haven't already done so.

This is the first I've ever heard of one of the pilots disagreeing with this version of the story. I'll be looking forward to a link.

Thanks, but I already know what Miles Kara is talking about. And he is with me on that one, with regards to "Perfect World Scenario".

Obviously not. He gave a detailed reason why the Langley fighters were sent the way they were.

You said it was "coincidental." This is the definition of coincidence: "a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection." There is nothing remarkable nor without apparent causal connection as to why the Langley fighters were sent to the east.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Point taken. And again, they could've been there in time, hypothetically. Nasypany was pretty clear about that.

09:38:50

NASYPANY: We need to get those back up there—I don't care how many windows you break!… Goddammit! O.K. Push 'em back!
...
On the ops floor, everyone is staring at CNN on the overhead screen. Seeing the first pictures of the Pentagon in flames is gut-wrenching. Nasypany's voice can be heard cursing in frustration: "Goddammit! I can't even protect my N.C.A. [National Capital Area].

Norad-Tapes

Just 17 min's earlier he ordered Langley to scramble straight towards DC, who wouldn't be frustrated then?

Even if they were over Washington before it hit there would have been very little they could do. The authorization to shoot down hijacked aircraft wasn't given until well after the Pentagon was hit. They could have tried to force them off course by getting close, but they couldn't have stopped it.

True. But I can also imagine a pilot saying "screw orders" to himself, taking things into his own hands with his sacrifice to reduce casualties etc. pp. I usually tend to think that some folks in the military, especially pilots, cultivated highly decent morale standarts.
We speculate at this point, fact is they would've been there with an option to actually do something. It's kinda frustrating that we didn't see one fighter reaching it's target and it gets even more fishy due to the "lost" Giant Killer tapes.
Time for a good tinfoil hat, me thinks!

a reply to: PublicOpinion

The Air Force didn't train for an event like 9/11. You can't expect there to not be mistakes when reacting to something you didn't prepare for. Not a conspiracy just people thrown into a situation they weren't mentally ready for, and making mistakes.

As for the tapes, at that level politics are huge. If the tapes showed someone had his head shoved up his ass, and was screwing things up, or in a state of panic, his chances of promotion and a nice retirement are destroyed. It's disgusting and pisses me off, but it's the reality. They were most likely buried to protect someone, or the entire command.

a reply to: Boone 870
a reply to: Zaphod58

Interview with Borgstrom, found it.

... We would talk to each other on our inner flight frequency but yet getting different orders from a lot of different sectors. I was by far the most inexperienced to of the guys in the flight...

de.scribd.com...

First he was asked "how many jets" he could provide and then we learn about this total confusion during the flight. He didn't only leave the battle-cab but somebody at NEADS also managed to not communicate the correct coordinates. Also, we ought to believe what he said with good faith only, as there are no tapes left to further scrutinize this subject. Fun-fact would be, that Nobody knows who from NEADS called Borgstrom in the first place. Yeah... sure shot. Good thing is... I'm King of Persia, Mr. Nobody's next of kin. He says they are just a bunch of liars and thus want's to hear the tapes first. Which is perfectly understandable if you ask me.

It's disgusting and pisses me off, but it's the reality. They were most likely buried to protect someone, or the entire command.

Agreed, thanks for your reply!

a reply to: PublicOpinion

One of the things I've found over the years is that people were expecting a perfect response by the military, and since it wasn't how they think it should have been, there has to have been a conspiracy.

The fact of the matter is that they exploited a vulnerability in the system. There hadn't been a hijacking of a flight in the US in almost 30 years, so the controllers reacted with shock, and were having trouble with the response.

Then when they did contact the military, their reaction was not what people think it should have been because they didn't train for anything close to this. In previous incidents, a single plane was hijacked, landed, and either negotiated an end to it, or the plane was stormed. Rarely did they crash, and when they did, it wasn't deliberate.

There hadn't been an event where multiple aircraft were taken simultaneously in the past. So the military was faced not only with a situation they didn't train for, but a situation that had never been seen before., along with bad or confusing information from the FAA controllers.

There was no way that the response could have been anything but chaotic and screwed up. It just wasn't possible for it to be unless everyone reacted absolutely perfectly every step of the way, and everything went absolutely right. That only happens in the movies.

a reply to: Zaphod58

There hadn't been an event where multiple aircraft were taken simultaneously in the past

One quibble - it had happened in the past

September 1970 - The Dawson Field hijackings where members of the PFLP (Popular Front Liberation Palestine)
hijacked 5 a/c - 4 on September 6, 1 on September 9 to pressure British government to release captured
terrorist

en.wikipedia.org...

In one attempted hijacking - air marshals on EL AL flight (EL AL 219) killed one hijacker and captured other terrorist

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: Boone 870


Interview with Borgstrom, found it.

Thanks for the link. That interview does not provide an alternative story to why the Langley F-16s were sent to the east as you said it did. It still stands that they were sent to the East because Langley Tower wanted to get them airborne as fast as possible, just like they always trained to do. This is no big secret, they admitted to what they did and why they did it. Nothing nefarious.

First he was asked "how many jets" he could provide and then we learn about this total confusion during the flight.

Ahhh, now I see, you are working the old "NEADS ordered the SOF to fly in order to cause confusion and prevent an intercept" angle. Sorry, but that's not going to fly (pardon the pun). NEADS told Borgstrom to launch as many F-16s as they could. When NEADS did this, they had no idea they were asking the SOF to go flying, leaving that position unfilled. Borgstrom himself says he is the one who made the decision to go flying.

He didn't only leave the battle-cab but somebody at NEADS also managed to not communicate the correct coordinates.

Well now you know at least two of the conspirators. 1) the SOF who made the decision to leave his position in order to fly and 2) a NEADS controller who accidentally transposed two digits in a set of coordinates.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion


Point taken. And again, they could've been there in time, hypothetically. Nasypany was pretty clear about that.

Highly unlikely. The Langley F-16s did not get airborne until 9:30. And this is only because they were sent to the east, it could've been longer if they would have had to wait for FAA approval to go north.

As noted earlier, they were wheels up at 9:30 and they would've been flying at Max subsonic because at this point, they had no reason to fly supersonic as ordered later by Nasypany. NEADS and the pilots have said that it would've been a 10-12 minute flight to DC. Flight 77 crashed shortly before 9:38. You can do the math from there.

One other thing to consider, NEADS was sending the F-16s to Baltimore (hence the 010° heading on the scramble order) to cut off what they believed to be American 11 coming from New York before it reached Washington DC. Even if there was no confusion that sent them to the east, they would not have been near Washington DC. Also, they would've been at 29,000 feet when NEADS finally picked up the track of flight 77 at 9:36:45, leaving them one minute to turn towards Washington, descend to around 2000 feet and pick the target out all the other air traffic in the area before it crashed into the Pentagon.

a reply to: firerescue

Oh yeah, forgot that one. So it happened once in history.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Salander

Look at the timeline. It was over 60 minutes from last contact to eyes on. Not 20 minutes. The last call from ATC that was acknowledged was at 1327 UTC. It wasn't intercepted until 1454 UTC. They changed timezones prior to being intercepted so looking at the local time you have to take that into account.

I'm what universe is that fast? Or 20 minutes?

Vigilant Guardian had nothing to do with the FAA control centers that were passing information to NORAD.

I have flown that airspace many times, in Learjets and Falcons. They had eyes on before the plane was out of Florida. From 40 NW of Gainesville it does not take an hour to get out of Florida airspace, and as I've shown by simple calculations, it only takes 37 minutes to where the formal intercept took place.

Believe what you want.

The Dallas paper and others wrote about the A-10 intercept and others did too.

Believe what you will sir, it's no problem for me.

originally posted by: skyeagle409
a reply to: Zaphod58

And the A-10 wasn't involved in the intercept.

You've got that right. An A-10 is not the plane of choice to intercept a Lear Jet, but then again, an A-10 is not an interceptor.

If you've been following the thread, Zaphod pointed out correctly that the first aircraft to get eyes on Stewart's airplane were already airborne. That is the key. And as he mentioned, Eglin has a big test facility, with numerous aircraft airborne at any given time flying test missions. It was 2 of those who first saw the Lear.

a reply to: Salander

If you've been following the thread, Zaphod pointed out correctly that the first aircraft to get eyes on Stewart's airplane were already airborne.

And, it has been pointed out that it took over an hour before the first intercept was made despite the fact the F-16 was already airborne.

a reply to: Salander

I believe the NTSB timeline. It was an hour before the FAA even notified the Air Force of it. That's verified in multiple places. They lost contact at 0933 EDT. The first F-16 (again no mention of an A-10) was alongside about 0952 CDT.

According to the pilot of the F-16, in his official statement, they were preparing to return to base at 1350Z, which is 0850 CDT, 0950 EDT. He didn't contact Jacksonville Center until 1417Z, 0917 CDT, 1017 EDT. He didn't make visual contact until 1452Z, 0952 CDT, 1052 EDT.

According to his statement, the Eglin controller asked his fuel state, which was about one hour before he was forced to return, then directed him to a tanker in the area, at which time he cleared his wingman, which was the A-10, to return single ship to Eglin.

But of course they're lying about all this too, right?