9/11 Bombshell: Methodical Deception -- Rebekah Roth

a reply to: Zaphod58

Thanks!

According to NORAD’s timeline, those fighters received the scramble order at 9:24 a.m., 30 minutes after Flight 77 made an unauthorized turn. That suggests the FAA took an inexplicably long time to alert NORAD. But Jane Garvey, former head of the Federal Aviation Administration, said it had informed NORAD earlier in a telephone call.

www.nbcnews.com...

So they actually were in the known earlier and it was not just the FAA? We will never know I guess...
But I didn't mean the 14 scramble-ready jets:

As author Lynn Spencer will describe, Scoggins “knows that Atlantic City is no longer an alert facility, but he also knows that they launch F-16s for training flights every morning at nine. He figures that the pilots are probably already in their planes and ready to go. They’re unarmed, but they’re a lot closer to New York City than the Otis fighters on Cape Cod, and the military serves only a monitoring purpose in hijacking anyway.” [SPENCER, 2008, PP. 33-34] Two F-16s from the 177th Fighter Wing are in fact already airborne and performing their training mission, and are just a few minutes flying time from New York City (see 8:46 a.m.-9:03 a.m. September 11, 2001). [BERGEN RECORD, 12/5/2003] Scoggins will later recount: “I requested that we take from Atlantic City very early in the [morning], not launch from the ground but those already airborne in Warning Area 107 [a training area] if they were there, which I believe they were.” He will add that the 177th Fighter Wing does not “have an intercept mission; it was taken away a long time ago. [But] NEADS could have called them and asked them to cancel their [training] mission and divert.”

www.historycommons.org...

That's what I've meant, sounds like there were some folks already in the air and not that far away. Would be interesting to know how many took part in which trainings to get a picture, even if they didn't carry weapons.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

And those aircraft were irrelevant. For an actual hijacking the alert fighters are launched. If they lost radio contact and the aircraft continued on they might have sent those to investigate, but for a potential hijacking, or known hijacking, the alert fighters respond, not unarmed fighters, unless all the alert fighters are airborne and there's nothing left.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion


14 planes, that's interesting. Can you provide a source?

Sure can.

The Air National Guard exclusively performs the air sovereignty mission in the continental United States, and those units fall under the control of the 1st Air Force based at Tyndall. The Guard maintains seven alert sites with 14 fighters and pilots on call around the clock. Besides Homestead, alert birds also sit armed and ready at Tyndall; Langley AFB, Va.; Otis Air National Guard Base, Mass.; Portland International Airport, Ore.; March ARB, Calif.; and Ellington Field, Texas. www.af.mil..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Source

Several generals testified to this in the 9/11 commission hearings as well.

How many were taking part in trainings? (just asking again as additional craft in the air, due to trainings, could've been of help as well)

Again, this is irrelevant to the response on 9/11. Even if there were 0 planes gone for training missions, there still would've only been two on alert at Otis and two on alert at Langley. As I said in the other post, there were plenty of fighters at the Air Force bases, it's just that none of them were armed because there is no assignment for them to be armed for. NORAD is only allowed 14 fighters to be armed and on alert at one time.

I was referring to the time in advance, the time in which the FAA managed to mess things up. They were "in the known" but unable to pass that information.

Now we are getting somewhere. Most people blame NORAD for the lack of intercepts on 9/11 when it was not their fault. The FAA gave them next to no time to perform intercepts before the hijacked planes crashed. Why didn't they? I don't know. It seems they did not learn their lesson on September 11, 2001.

In 2009, a Northwest Airlines flight out of Colorado went silent without radio contact between itself and air traffic control for 78 minutes because the two pilots got distracted while using their laptops. The flight overshot its destination airport by 150 miles and the FAA didn't inform NORAD in time for them to get interceptors airborne before communication was reestablished. LINK

And yes, correct. 924 mph is the top speed with burner, sorry for that one. 30 sec's is close but still a miss then, if your timeline is correct. We have different accounts for the exact time of take-off if I'm not mistaken now. Another reason to scrutinize this topic further, thanks for the clarification!

Thank you for admitting this, it's very rare when someone admits to a mistake while discussing this issue.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

It's important to note that the NBC article you link to contains information that came from the first 9/11 commission hearing back in early 2003. This was before commission staffers had a chance to listen to the NORAD recordings and establish the real time NORAD had learned about Flight 77.

For example, that article says the fighters were scrambled at 9:24 to intercept 77. That's not true, the 9:24 report was for the thought-to-still-be-airborne American 11 and NORAD was not informed about American 77 until 9:33. This is why the commissions work is so important, the FAA and NORAD made several errors in their timelines early on.

Once the commission staffers got their hands on the NORAD recordings and radar data, most of these discrepancies were found and then accurately reported on.

a reply to: Boone 870
a reply to: Zaphod58

Interesting that you guys mention radio contact, now that we know how messed up that actually was. Damnd tapes in the ocean, I think we all would love to listen to Giant Killer for a while...

And thanks for the good info, Boone! You are correct with that update regarding the Nist-report, pretty good informed on that front as well I see. Had the honour of not finding old entries myself a few times as I realized that my favorite exercise, which took the WTC7-fire-sprinkler offline and opened all fire-doors, got whitewashed in later versions to "sprinkler-outage and open fire-doors" only.
That's why I would tend to prefer older versions of that Nist-coverup, to be frank.

It's fun discussing this with you guys! The good sort of fun without all that irony iron stuff. Why not being honest then, mistakes are only human. Stars and Flags for you!

a reply to: Boone 870

Well...

But Jane Garvey, former head of the Federal Aviation Administration, said it had informed NORAD earlier in a telephone call.

Don't trust the military! You cought Arnold with another disinfo recently, be proud and stay frosty!



edit: the link regarding those 14 planes is broken, can you fix it? Yes you can?

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Sorry, I didn't catch the broken link I posted. Try this one:
web.archive.org...

I think you have mistaken me with someone else regarding WTC 7, that is a subject I never post about.

As far as the GIANTKILLER tapes you are referring to being lost, do you have a link for that? I don't remember ever hearing that the Navy lost those recordings. The only two issues regarding missing recordings is the two positions at NEADS that should've recorded the Otis scramble and the recordings at Langley Tower. The latter of which were recorded but since no one requested them they were never pulled for storage and stayed in the rotation then recorded over.

GIANTKILLER didn't play much of a factor on 9/11. Langley Tower sent the F-16s to the east, then Norfork TRACON kept them going to the East into GIANTKILLER's airspace. GIANTKILLER let them continue to the east until contacted by NEADS. You can hear this in the NEADS recordings when they called GIANTKILLER and asked them to turn the F-16s toward Baltimore. The phone operator at GIANTKILLER said something to the effect of "you sent him into whiskey 386 and now you want me to turn him to the North?" This indicates that GIANTKILLER was under the assumption that NEADS had sent them eastbound.

Here's a transcript with some of GIANTKILLER's phone calls:
www.scribd.com...

originally posted by: jude11
a reply to: AnteBellum


7 was pulled either to cover up, take advantage of a huge insurance pay out or both. But the issue is...That it was rigged BEFORE the 11th in order to do so so there was advance knowledge of events to come.

So a Conspiricy in the True meaning of the Word with the outcome as Conspired by the Conspirators!!!

I am waiting for another Conspiracy to unfold. The one where we, or some here, want to have the True culprits put on Trial, Found Guilty, and Punished to the FULL extent for Their Crimes!!!!!! Syx...

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Salander

You still have to explain how it was intercepted within minutes when it was 27 minutes between loss of contact, and requesting an interception. And somewhere in there the F-16 had to refuel to have enough fuel to intercept them.

Unless they have "edited" the report after all these years, the plane went NORDO about 40 NW of Gainesville.

Do you agree with that?

If you do, then the approximate distance from that point to Eufala, where the intercept took place (if you agree on that) is about 160 miles. At 250knots, that takes 37 minutes.

Forget the already airborne aircraft you and I agreed on a few days ago. Let's disregard the informal intercepts, eyes on while still within state of Florida.

Let's also disregard any local time references, Eastern time v. Central time.

From NORDO to Eufala was 160 miles. High school calculations show that to be 37 minutes or less.

Doesn't anybody do any independent thinking anymore? It's amazing to me that people still throw that one hour figure out just because it was written in some report. Clearly, it cannot be accurate, and the most obvious reason for the error is the confusion between Eastern Time and Central time.

a reply to: Salander

So the F-16 got the radio call over the Gulf, flew to the tanker and took on fuel, and flew to where the Lear was in less than an hour.

There was no confusion in the pilot statement because he used Zulu. He wasn't changing time zones in his statement. Zulu to EDT is -4. So 1350Z, the time they were getting ready to head back to base was 0950 EDT. That's already over 20 minutes. There's no way in hell he took on fuel and flew to them as fast as you claim.

So again, you're saying he's lying or too incompetent to look at a clock. Or they changed everything to look better on 9/11, right? It's all propaganda.

a reply to: Zaphod58

Thank you Zaphod, for addressing my point. I will respond in kind.

Time and distance calculations can be done without the testimony of F-16 pilots, and I have never claimed, and do not now claim, that he was lying. You brought that up.

If you want to pass on the time and distance calculations, I do certainly understand.

a reply to: Salander

So you're just going to ignore his testimony to make it fit your timeline. That means that you're going to ignore him taking on fuel, taking time to discuss things with controllers, etc so you can make it fit your timeline.

a reply to: Boone 870

Thanks!

“It’s a mission that hits close to home,” Herring said. “We’ll do whatever it takes to stop a cruise missile or a Bear bomber from crossing the border — from shooting it down to ramming it. We’re the only line of defense. We’re it. We’re fired up about what we do, and we’re the best at what we do.”

Airman

That's what I meant when we were talking about the lack of shoot-down orders.
Those guys actually wouldn't even dare to care at all.

With regards to GIANT KILLER this could be of use:

There was still a problem with the missing channels from DRM2. The manufacturer, Dictaphone, took control of the tapes and was able to recover “most of the tracks,” as the Under Secretary reported in a November 25, 2003, memo. Working with our DoD point-of-contact we were able to obtain digitized files from Dictaphone for all of the recorded channels from all three digital recording machines at NEADS.
...
Two Channels not recorded

www.oredigger61.org...

The other point is, that we have no source for the initial order to scramble them into said training area. It was most def not Langleys decision but rather an unknown caller from NEADS, we know that by now.
Borgstrom mentioned this call as he mentioned very confusing radio transmissions, your transscript doesn't cover the whole process. And this could be part of a methodical deception, information only gets out in tiny fragments while some channels weren't even recorded.

The NEADS-call for the initial scramble would be number one on my priority-list then, but (all) conversations with regards to Giant Killers airspace would be interesting as well. Even if they didn't play that big role as you suggested. Some parts were never recorded in the first place, we will never know what exactly has been said.

a reply to: Salander
What would the F-16's have done if they intercepted American 77?

a reply to: PublicOpinion

That's what I meant when we were talking about the lack of shoot-down orders. Those guys actually wouldn't even dare to care at all.

Let's take a look.

9-11 Fighter Pilot: We Wouldn't Have Shot Down Hijackers

The pilot of one of two U.S. military jets that were scrambled on 9-11 moments after kamikaze hijacker Mohamed Atta slammed American Airlines Flight 11 into Tower One of the World Trade Center said Wednesday that he wouldn't have been able to stop the attack even if he intercepted the plane.

"If we had intercepted American 11, we probably would have watched it crash," the pilot, identified only by his military codename "Nasty," told the Cape Cod Times. "We didn't have the authority to (shoot it down)."

As part of the 102nd Fighter Wing flying out of Otis Air National Guard Base on Cape Cod, "Nasty" and his partner, codenamed "Duff," were scrambled at 8:46 a.m. as news of Flight 11's hijacking reached the base.

"We didn't suspect they would use kamikaze tactics that morning," the pilot told the Times. "We weren't ready for that type of an attack, to quickly shoot down one of our own airplanes."

At the time, military pilots had no such standing orders. Absent a presidential directive they had no authority to blow a commercial airliner out of the sky.

www.freerepublic.com...

originally posted by: PublicOpinion


With regards to GIANT KILLER this could be of use:

Again, the two channels not recorded in your link are the channels that were supposed to record the weapons controllers who handled the Otis scramble, not Langley nor GIANTKILLER. If they had been recorded, they would provide 0 information regarding the Langley scramble.

The other point is, that we have no source for the initial order to scramble them into said training area.

You are conflating the NEADS scramble order with the Langley Tower personnel's decision to send them on the heading of 090° for 60 miles.

First. There absolutely is a source for the initial scramble order. The order can be overheard in the NEADS recordings. They can be overheard saying, "010° at 290." This is undeniable. NEADS gave a heading to the north and not the east. Here's what NEADS and GIANTKILLER said when asked why the fighters went to the east instead of the north when they were interviewed by the 9/11 commission staffers:

MCC Tech Steve Bianchi

He noted that the Langley flights were scrambled and directed to hold over Washington, DC. He noted that either the FAA or Giant Killer sent the flights over the coast on a standard departure course. He noted that Nasypany was aggravated by this, and upon discovery ordered the flights to be immediately be placed on course directly towards Washington, D.C.


MCC Maj. Kevin Nasypany

Nasypany commented that the fighters were given a 010 heading even though they scrambled to a 090 for 60 heading. He continued and stated that Commission staff would have to speak with Langley and Giant Killer for an explanation of why the fighters flew on a different heading than that in the scramble order.


He commented that the traffic at Norfolk Approach would explain the initial trajectory, but once it became clear the fighters were out of Norfolk Approach air traffic the NEADS Weapons desk noticed the fighters were not turning per the scramble order, and became immediately involved.


Maj. James Fox. (Senior director of weapons section)

Fox continued and noted that "whenever" the data was noticed that the fighters from Langely AFB were tracking east as opposed to north was when Fox and the Weapons section knew the fighters were not on the north heading. That deviation from the optimal heading came through the FAA in order to put the fighters in the clear airspace corridor off the coast.


Chief Defeo. Giant Killer.

He thought the vector and DME were entered to get the flight out there so someone could head them where they needed to go. Chief Defeo opined that the flight strip data was such because Langley Tower wanted to get the flight out and up quickly so that HUNTRESS could control them.

Second. The ATC controllers at Langley Tower admitted to 9/11 commission staffers that they are the ones who changed the heading to the East to get the fighters airborne. You really need to read this article if you want to understand what happened instead of repeating debunked nonsense. Scroll down to the bottom and read the first entry, it's very short.

NEADS said Langley was responsible for the eastbound direction. Langley said Langley was responsible for the eastbound direction. There is no doubt that Langley sent them eastbound.
www.oredigger61.org...

It was most def not Langleys decision but rather an unknown caller from NEADS, we know that by now.

The link to Borgstrom's interview earlier proves that this is false. Borgstrom himself said he's the one who decided to go flying, not some conspiratorial puppetmaster at NEADS.

a reply to: Boone 870

To clear up a few things: Borgstrom didn't get coordinates and thought he would be provided with them soon after lift-off and he changed from 2 to a 3-ship flight, due to the strange request "how many do you have". It might have been Langleys decision, but it only occurred due to some incompetence or stand-down order (as Nasypanys orders were not communicated).
Also we have this FAA-statement with regards to the earlier call and we have Borgstroms account regarding different orders from different authorities to all three pilots later during the flight. I don't know if you were able to reconstruct that mission with the tapes, but I failed miserably. They couldn't even figure out who at NEADS made that call in the first place, do you really need more to have both eyebrows raised by now?
Miles Kara's work actually raises more eyebrows in a row and more questions than it was able to answer. Who the heck names some records "Freedom Tapes" when they are not open for public use? What is this, some kinda elitist slap into our faces?

...However, most of the deleted information on the damaged tape is apparently later restored. In November 2003, it will be reported that Dictaphone “has recovered most of the tracks.”

www.historycommons.org...

...“just how much evidence the FAA had held back.

www.historycommons.org...

...the Commission does not make the same effort with all day of 9/11 recordings. For example, it does not even find out which person(s) from the Department of Defense participated in a White House video conference chaired by counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke during the attacks (see (9:10 a.m.) September 11, 2001).

www.historycommons.org...

You don't find that on Kara's oredigger, do you? All tapes got tampered with, 'some' parts got lost. No need to play that down, which he did to some extent.

a reply to: skyeagle409


That comment obviously refers to AA 11. Did he say what he would've done after he knew that they use planes to attack buildings? It's a crappy source, so I didn't really bother and suggest you would quote the part with context if we could find any.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

That comment obviously refers to AA 11. Did he say what he would've done after he knew that they use planes to attack buildings? It's a crappy source, so I didn't really bother and suggest you would quote the part with context if we could find any.

What would pilots a have done? Shoot down an airliner over New York City without a Presidential Order?

If the airliners were shot down, what would the effects have been as those B-767's slammed into a crowded 5th Avenue, Broadway or Times Square at 500 mph while spreading burning jet fuel like napalm and finding out later the pilots shot down the wrong aircraft among the mass confusion within ATC that day?

Confusion is why two Black Hawk helicopters were accidentally shot down by two F-15 Eagles in Iraq.

1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident

The 1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident, sometimes referred to as the Black Hawk Incident, was a friendly fire incident over northern Iraq that occurred on 14 April 1994 during Operation Provide Comfort (OPC). The pilots of two United States Air Force (USAF) F-15 fighter aircraft, operating under the control of a USAF airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft, misidentified two United States Army UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters as Iraqi Mil Mi-24 "Hind" helicopters.

The F-15 pilots fired on and destroyed both helicopters, killing all 26 military personnel aboard, along with civilians from the United States, United Kingdom, France, Turkey, and the Kurdish community.

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: PublicOpinion

To clear up a few things: Borgstrom didn't get coordinates and thought he would be provided with them soon after lift-off and he changed from 2 to a 3-ship flight, due to the strange request "how many do you have". It might have been Langleys decision, but it only occurred due to some incompetence or stand-down order (as Nasypanys orders were not communicated).

You are correct when you say they didn't receive coordinates, but they did have a heading. There is no "might" regarding the change in direction from the original scramble order. NEADS, GIANT KILLER and Langley Tower all three acknowledge that it was Langley Tower. As I said earlier, Langley done this to get them airborne faster. Dean Ekman corroborates this after the fighters were held due to an "air traffic delay."

After having to wait two minutes, Eckmann complains: “We’re an active air scramble. We need to go now!” Finally, the tower controller tells him, “Roger, Quit flight is cleared for takeoff, 090 for 60,” meaning the fighters are to fly due east for 60 miles.

www.historycommons.org... scriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=Go

Instead of Langley Tower waiting for air traffic to be cleared to the north, they gave them the standard heading of 090° that did not require FAA approval.

While I believe that it is very likely that Borgstrom would've caught the error if he would've stayed on the ground, that doesn't mean whoever it was from NEADS asked him how many planes they could get airborne had any idea that Langley Tower would change the heading. I don't understand why you're grasping on to do so tightly. Even if Borgstrom had stayed on the ground and made sure the fighters flew on the heading of 010, they would not have been heading to Washington DC. The NEADS tapes confirm that they wanted them headed toward Baltimore/Washington Airport to cut off American 11. Even if they were headed to Washington DC, American 77 would have crashed before they could've possibly made it there.

Also we have this FAA-statement with regards to the earlier call and we have Borgstroms account regarding different orders from different authorities to all three pilots later during the flight. I don't know if you were able to reconstruct that mission with the tapes, but I failed miserably. They couldn't even figure out who at NEADS made that call in the first place, do you really need more to have both eyebrows raised by now?

It doesn't matter who made the call. Borgstrom says he made the decision to fly. His boss in North Dakota approved:

Borgstrom is uncomfortable with the unprecedented situation he is in and feels compelled to notify his immediate higher-ups. He tells the commander: “Sir, they’re launching all three of us. I don’t know what’s going on, but there’s no ops supervision here at all!” The commander knows what has happened in New York from news reports, and so is aware of the situation. He tells Borgstrom: “Go! Our thoughts are with you. Godspeed.” Borgstrom then hangs up the phone and runs to his jet.

www.historycommons.org... scriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=Go

But, again, and I can't stress this enough, it doesn't matter if Borgstrom would've stayed on the ground. All he would've done is made sure they went toward Baltimore and not Washington. They would not have reached Washington before American 77 impacted.

Miles Kara's work actually raises more eyebrows in a row and more questions than it was able to answer. Who the heck names some records "Freedom Tapes" when they are not open for public use? What is this, some kinda elitist slap into our faces?

I'm not sure which tapes you are referring to, can you clarify?

...However, most of the deleted information on the damaged tape is apparently later restored. In November 2003, it will be reported that Dictaphone “has recovered most of the tracks.”

The commission's timeline is based on the tapes that weren't damaged. Mainly the MCC position, which we know wasn't damaged because there's no time gaps missing from the recordings.

...“just how much evidence the FAA had held back.

But they eventually got all the information they were looking for. Just like how they didn't have the NEADS recordings before the first hearing.

...the Commission does not make the same effort with all day of 9/11 recordings. For example, it does not even find out which person(s) from the Department of Defense participated in a White House video conference chaired by counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke during the attacks (see (9:10 a.m.) September 11, 2001).

Irrelevant to the Langley scramble.

You don't find that on Kara's oredigger, do you? All tapes got tampered with, 'some' parts got lost. No need to play that down, which he did to some extent.

It appears to me he's been very forthcoming with any apparent indiscretions made by NEADS or the FAA.



ETA: I'm not sure what's going on with the links, sorry. If you enter "Borgstrom" into the search engine at history commons, the page I'm linking from will come up.