Fear of Outcomes: UFOlogy vs Astrobiology Distrust Explained

a reply to: Scdfa

one of the brothers is a troll , I might have to get dis-attached

hey Jade , this threads not a response to my potential derailment in your other astro-biological related thread , my appologies if I bored you

funbox

a reply to: Scdfa

Budd Hopkin's assistant...forum troll....same difference.

originally posted by: Scdfa

I'm a MUFON field investigator and I have worked with Budd Hopkins.

If true this would validate my opinion of all three.

But it seems more like a convenient revelation, which would validate my opinion of you.

a reply to: draknoir2

come now brothers, why the mistrust ? is it not even probable that , many people from u.f.o agencys frequent this site , why so implausible ?

improbabilitybox

a reply to: JadeStar

As much as the two subjects have in common, ie: they are both looking for evidence of life beyond Earth

That's your problem right there. Astrobiology is a scientific discipline using the tools of science to look for evidence of life beyond Earth. Ufology grew out of a pressing need to understand why pilots under stress reported experiencing phenomena they interpreted as being unknown aircraft. The first examines actual physical phenomena, the latter interprets reports of subjective experiences. That pilots were actually seeing unknown aircraft was an early theory; it eventually morphed into "unknown craft from another planet" when the descriptions went beyond anything known technology could account for.

In the 1960s, ufology underwent a split. Some researchers realized that they were dealing with a mental phenomenon, others continued to look for physical explanations, not necessarily involving material aircraft. Into the void caused by this split, the new religion founded by the "Contactees" of the 1950s flooded. The overwhelming majority of people interested in "UFOs" these days actually seem to be members of the Contactee Cult.

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: draknoir2

come now brothers, why the mistrust ? is it not even probable that , many people from u.f.o agencys frequent this site , why so implausible ?

improbabilitybox

Its not improbable in and of itself. For one, its not that big of a deal but why after months of discussion about abductions where Hopkins was mentioned repeatedly is it now just revealed? And then the context of the disclosure is a "one up" response after he gets his butt handed to him by LostGirl? Quite frankly, its reminiscent of...

"a friggen 12 gauge wadda you think?"

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

I think that's a question only scdfa can answer , funny vid though , reminded me of the dn'der that got his wish and ended up being clubbed to death by a proper troll.. futurama ?

funbox

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Scdfa

one of the brothers is a troll , I might have to get dis-attached

hey Jade , this threads not a response to my potential derailment in your other astro-biological related thread , my appologies if I bored you

funbox

You didn't bore me I just haven't been around. My availability this weekend will be spotty at best. Working on something really cool but hella busy!

a reply to: JadeStar

I am not so sure there is any fear in the Astrobiology v Ufology race to find ET.

I have always been interested in both the ‘science’ and the ‘unexplained’ angles in the search for aliens. But it is often tricky to balance the two at the same time. Science has taken us out into the solar system and looked deep into the universe. We now know a lot more about our galactic neighbourhood than we did during the early post war years as well as how stars and planets are formed.

Whilst Ufology gave us the flying saucers of the 40s and 50s. Then human like aliens supposedly from the nearby planets landed in remote areas and spoke to completely random people. Once it became apparent that no one inhabited our planetary neighbours the aliens morphed into little spindly grey folk from further out in the galaxy. Saucers were upgraded into sleek black triangles. In the 1980s those grey aliens came to steal us in the night and use a medical technology decades behind what we now possess.

In the 1990s, just as the internet was becoming accessible to the public, trust in government probably hit an all time low and has never recovered. A long chain of scandals and conspiracies, starting with the JFK assassination, through MK Ultra, Watergate, Iran Contra and (later events in 2001) have left a nasty taste and a deep suspicion of those in power (and not just in the USA). So it is all too easy to believe there was, and still is, a deep cover-up of the UFO issue.

But ultimately all Ufology has given us are some fantastic stories, dubious photos and videos, quotes and misquotes from various prominent people and a stack of documents. Some of which are undoubtedly interesting, hint at serious concerns about UFOs, but tell us nothing about an alien presence on earth (unless you think the MJ12 and a few other unverifiable documents are real?). Ufology, like Ghost hunting has sadly become a form of entertainment rather than a serious pursuit of the truth in this day and age.

People like Dolan and Friedman may have once had noble intentions but are financially dependent on the UFO topic as well. So, yes, with a dearth of any really interesting 21st century cases to look into they are confined to trotting out the same old lines and perhaps adding a little new wrinkle every now and again.

But If science proves life exists beyond earth does this immediately legitimise every UFO case? Not at all. If we have already been subject to extraterrestrial visitation as some ufologists assert then surely any contamination problem from alien viruses has already began. Or it presents no problem.

Ufology is just entertaining us these days.Science is now on the brink of confirming ET exists.

I don't think the current state of Ufology would be given a new lease of life by any such confirmation being made. Astrobiology has nothing to fear. In fact it might actually lead to a more serious look at the UFO topic and a more robust form of Ufology. Bolstered by people who would now have a clearer picture of what we are looking for and where to look for it.

a reply to: JadeStar

*beams*

still learning the finer arts of procrastination eh , ah well , I know how it can pile up ...something cool ? pertaining to the recent exo-planetary studies ?

sneek *peek*?*

funbox

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Scdfa

I'm a MUFON field investigator and I have worked with Budd Hopkins.

You pulled that out of your butt just now after months of rants?

If he is a MUFON investigator two things jump out:

1) Their standards are incredibly low (but I already knew that).
2) He must have been trained by someone.

At the risk of making yet another thread about him I wonder who trained him and what they think of him?

I noticed he got really quiet when I showed him the signed books Stanton Friedman and Kathleen Marden sent me. I could have showed him the signed SETI 2020 and Confessions of an Alien Hunter books from Seth Shostak but my point was already made. I can have a conversation with either of them and not be out of my depth. I somehow doubt Scdfa could say the same.

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa

I'm a MUFON field investigator and I have worked with Budd Hopkins.

If true this would validate my opinion of all three.

But it seems more like a convenient revelation, which would validate my opinion of you.

dreknoir2, I'm not here to say things that are untrue, I will leave that in your more capable hands.

originally posted by: mirageman
a reply to: JadeStar

I am not so sure there is any fear in the Astrobiology v Ufology race to find ET.

Yeah, I wouldn't really call it a race.

I was more or less trying to explain the reasons why two annoy each other.

I have always been interested in both the ‘science’ and the ‘unexplained’ angles in the search for aliens. But it is often tricky to balance the two at the same time.

Yes, in both circles.

The middle is a tough place to be.

Science has taken us out into the solar system and looked deep into the universe. We now know a lot more about our galactic neighbourhood than we did during the early post war years as well as how stars and planets are formed.

Yes. And so much of that work has been inspired by a desire to know what else might be out there and fundamental questions like "are we alone?", "if we're not, where else might life exist", etc.

Whilst Ufology gave us the flying saucers of the 40s and 50s. Then human like aliens supposedly from the nearby planets landed in remote areas and spoke to completely random people. Once it became apparent that no one inhabited our planetary neighbours the aliens morphed into little spindly grey folk from further out in the galaxy. Saucers were upgraded into sleek black triangles. In the 1980s those grey aliens came to steal us in the night and use a medical technology decades behind what we now possess.

And now they supposedly shop late nights at Walmart with "hybrid children"....

How disappointing. No one would have imagined First Contact could be that mundane hahahaha

In the 1990s, just as the internet was becoming accessible to the public, trust in government probably hit an all time low and has never recovered. A long chain of scandals and conspiracies, starting with the JFK assassination, through MK Ultra, Watergate, Iran Contra and (later events in 2001) have left a nasty taste and a deep suspicion of those in power (and not just in the USA). So it is all too easy to believe there was, and still is, a deep cover-up of the UFO issue.

True, but as you well know there are perception vs reality issues. A government could both cover up UFO reports in the Cold War (say to protect a classified aircraft) and still not know anything about "aliens", etc.

But ultimately all Ufology has given us are some fantastic stories, dubious photos and videos, quotes and misquotes from various prominent people and a stack of documents. Some of which are undoubtedly interesting, hint at serious concerns about UFOs, but tell us nothing about an alien presence on earth (unless you think the MJ12 and a few other unverifiable documents are real?). Ufology, like Ghost hunting has sadly become a form of entertainment rather than a serious pursuit of the truth in this day and age.

Exactly.

I am wondering when people will start to think zombies are real and there are zombie hunters and forums and tv shows devoted to "real zombie stories".

After all, anyone can sequence DNA and there are homemade wetlabs all across the country. It's only a matter of time before fear of a new technology (genetic engineering by your neighbor down the street), coupled with distrust of same technology, coupled with Hollywood dramatizations of "what can go wrong", will lead to "Zombie" sightings.

I'm going predict it, somewhere between 2020-2030 when genetically engineered pets become more common.

Then we might have tabloid stories like, "Is Your GM Cat Trying to Kill You!", "California genetic engineer in a garage produces zombie virus!" etc

People like Dolan and Friedman may have once had noble intentions but are financially dependent on the UFO topic as well.

Yep. But neither of them will admit it nor the huge amounts speakers on the UFO lecture circuit are paid.

Its a show PT Barnum would be impressed by.

So, yes, with a dearth of any really interesting 21st century cases to look into they are confined to trotting out the same old lines and perhaps adding a little new wrinkle every now and again.

Exactly.

But If science proves life exists beyond earth does this immediately legitimise every UFO case? Not at all.

You and I know this but a lot of people in UFO circles think it would. That's the perception I got when I went to a MUFON convention and the reaction of the people who I talked with who found out what my field of study was.

If we have already been subject to extraterrestrial visitation as some ufologists assert then surely any contamination problem from alien viruses has already began. Or it presents no problem.

It's an issue I seldom have seen ufologists address. All of this contact going on, in some cases with extremely human looking beings (who presumably have human-like micro-biomes (bacteria, virii, etc) but there's no threat of an "Andromeda Strain?"

Ufology is just entertaining us these days.Science is now on the brink of confirming ET exists.

Bingo! Nail hit squarely on head.

I don't think the current state of Ufology would be given a new lease of life by any such confirmation being made.

Don't tell that to people at MUFON conventions or Mr. Dolan.

Astrobiology has nothing to fear.

Astrobiology is always going to fear that droves of people who believe all the UFO entertainment as true will lump the new discovery up with their entertainment or worse, try to hijack it to start a new UFO group, or alien cult.

In short, the fear is the subject would be over run at least in the media (not scientific circles) by tinfoil hat people the day after the real aliens are detected, found, etc.

In fact it might actually lead to a more serious look at the UFO topic and a more robust form of Ufology. Bolstered by people who would now have a clearer picture of what we are looking for and where to look for it.

I've made this point on ATS but I have had to be careful about it because it sounds "elitist" to a lot of the MUFON and "UFOs as Aliens" crowd.

Great post mirageman! Star for you!

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: JadeStar

*beams*

still learning the finer arts of procrastination eh , ah well , I know how it can pile up ...

You know what else can pile up? Coursework.... So like, balancing things like school, job, social life and ATS can be tricky.

something cool ? pertaining to the recent exo-planetary studies ?

Yep....

sneek *peek*?*

funbox

Not yet.

three phrases come to mind:
1...multiple people of one sighting
2...instant change of direction or stop/start
3...unreal speed
all three of these have for decades been reported, by thousands of people all over the world...from "goobers" to "rocket scientists"

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: draknoir2

come now brothers, why the mistrust ? is it not even probable that , many people from u.f.o agencys frequent this site , why so implausible ?

improbabilitybox

[quote/]

I'm sure I'm not the only MUFON field investigator on ATS.
I started working with MUFON back in the year 2000, when most of these trolls were still just disappointing their parents.

Don't take them seriously, funbox, no one does.

edit on 2-5-2015 by Scdfa because: (no reason given)

a reply to: JadeStar

And now they supposedly shop late nights at Walmart with "hybrid children"....

can I just pick up on this a sec, as to me it makes sense

a hybridised race ? for what ? maybe as a bridge race , exposure to two sides of a coin would be a learning experience for both parties wouldn't it ? everyday activity's like shopping could be baffler ling to far advanced species , arnt their such examples here on earth , where we're not quite sure how a few of our ancient monoliths were created?.

wouldn't a bridge race be a suitable vessel for experiencing first hand ,such informational gaps between civilisations ?

funbox

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: JadeStar

And now they supposedly shop late nights at Walmart with "hybrid children"....

can I just pick up on this a sec, as to me it makes sense

a hybridised race ? for what ? maybe as a bridge race , exposure to two sides of a coin would be a learning experience for both parties wouldn't it ? everyday activity's like shopping could be baffler ling to far advanced species , arnt their such examples here on earth , where we're not quite sure how a few of our ancient monoliths were created?.

wouldn't a bridge race be a suitable vessel for experiencing first hand ,such informational gaps between civilisations ?

funbox

Sure. Anything is possible... But really, walmart?

Aliens come light years to get here and all they do is look for low prices for their "'brid kids"? Sounds more like lack of human imagination than presence of extraterrestrials on Earth in reality.

Now if you want a much more sophisticated take on what alien hybridization might look like check out the Science Channel's 3 season series "Alien Encounters". You can stream it at their site here

a reply to: Scdfa

your not the monkey in hanger one are you ...ooook?

funbox

originally posted by: jimmyx
three phrases come to mind:
1...multiple people of one sighting
2...instant change of direction or stop/start
3...unreal speed
all three of these have for decades been reported, by thousands of people all over the world...from "goobers" to "rocket scientists"

And therefore what?