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Fear of Outcomes: UFOlogy vs Astrobiology Distrust Explained

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posted on Apr, 30 2015 @ 07:56 PM
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originally posted by: BlueMule
a reply to: JadeStar

Naw, you haven't deduced it.

As you should be aware, the experience of being a ufo contactee/abductee is basically mystical/psychic. The artistic temperament is more psychic than the scientific temperament. That's why artists have higher scoring patterns in psi experiments, and that's why the scientific temperament is ill equipped to understand the ufo phenomena. Apples and oranges, Ellie.

We're talking about something that stretches back in history all the way to shamanic initiation, which takes new guises as culture evolves. Not exactly something that's taught in the hard sciences. Disadvantage: yours. Study more of the Humanities and parapsychology, or be ruled by the limitations of your temperament.

👣



You do realize a lot of scientists are also artists in their spare time right? I know many into music and the visual arts and I compose music as a hobby.

Many scientific conference often have performances as part of the evening's informal leisure activities.

Stereotypes suck don't they?
edit on 30-4-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 30 2015 @ 08:04 PM
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originally posted by: Scdfa
Don't make me go through this whole list.



You probably should. You might be surprised at what you find. I gave a list which covers the full spectrum.

Here are some tips, check out Peter A. Sturrock, Alan C. Holt and Paul Hill for starters....

Instead you saw a few names you recognized and threw out the whole list based on what you think is "disinformation" simply because it challenges and brings into question your belief system.

Don't worry, you'll find a few on that list who probably will impress you.
edit on 30-4-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2015 @ 08:09 PM
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originally posted by: Jonjonj

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Jonjonj

Added: I would love to read Kip Thorne's evidence, as probably one of my favourite physicists I was completely unaware of his work in this field.

When you have the time could you give me a link to that? This is not me being an ass, I truly want to read it.


Noted.

I will see about doing that sometime this weekend. Of course most of it revolves around wormholes as you might expect. The detectability of natural or artificial wormholes is a subject I am very interested in and have studied quite a lot about outside of my normal university coursework.


Indeed and thank you for taking the time to do that if you find the time. If not that is also ok but remember, the study of UFO's actually needs real study now, what with the belief that wormholes or warp fields are becoming quite the phenomenon to be researched...and this is only the beginning.


Indeed. If the whole "they can't get here from there in a reasonable amount of time" argument collapses then it makes it at least plausible that a UFO event at some point might represent technology from elsewhere. But there would still need to be a huge trail of evidence gathered to support that.

By the way...

Check out Hal Putoff's work as well, if you haven't already. You'll thank me later


This incidentally is why you seldom find theoretical physicists rule out something like a rare case of a UFOs as a potential detection of extraterrestrial visitation while we astronomers are like "nope, haven't seen anything that would indicate that."

Neither will say "oh yes, it's unidentified and there for ALIENZ!" but the theoretical physicists and people who work in that field are more favorable to the idea due to things like wormholes, m-theory, warp theory etc while astronomers are all about observation and data collection.
edit on 30-4-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2015 @ 08:24 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar




Astrobiology would probably both welcome but probably slightly fear any UFO report actually being due to extraterrestrial visitation


IMO I think even the Alien UFO believers and just about everyone in the planet would feel as such despite what they say.

First excitement, then realization that we might have dropped some level(s) on the food chain? Nature does not appear to favour prey over the Apex predator or the less intelligent life forms. Not to say they will be , but certainly a good possibility based on our nature patterns.

Contamination would probably be less likely if a more advance life form were to visit, but obviously its still a concern. Just like if we went to mars and found life we would certainly take extreme precautions to not contaminate their and our environment without research as we do with our rovers.

Perhaps that could be an indicator if they come in peace or not or level of intelligence . If they show up and don't take any precautions and we start getting contaminated and they are not having any ill effects.It might be time to get out of the planet. If we are aware of the contamination issue, you would have to assume a more advance civilization would likely as well.

Of course there is also the possibility that they are so so advanced and genetically modified via AI nano type tech which has made them immune for so many centuries they could have forgotten how primitive we are to even think of the contamination possibility?

So maybe its best to have visitors more advanced but not to advance, lol.



The moment this happens, they're out of a job because almost no one will be interested in fanciful stories about beautiful women from the Pleiades or Reptilians "from the constellation Draco"


Never underestimate the charlatans , according to Darwain they are a favoured race. They will likely evolve and take the role of speaking about REAL Alien agenda and such.




I think I have deduced why there seems to be so much friction between the people involved in UFOlogy and the people involved with the science of Astrobiology.


Its actually pretty simple IMO, people don't trust their gov't and corporations which are typically the fund providers for the science community.

In reality in this aspect they actually have a pretty decent case to distrust both gov't and corporations who have their claws in the universities as well as the science community.

The part I have trouble with are the ones that throw logical thinking and common sense out the window. They automatically jump to Its Aliens theory and then ignore evidence or other possibilities they may or may not be unknown but human non the less .

Hence even though many ufo believers or even global warming deniers may not have a science background, I cut them SOME slack because they do have a valid reason to be skeptical of results touched by gov't and corporate interest.

Good thread nonetheless

edit on 00430America/ChicagoThu, 30 Apr 2015 21:00:30 -0500up3042 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2015 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: Scdfa

Vallee? Disinformation

Hyneck? Admitted to disinformation. In fact, Hyneck wrote in his book that he ENJOYED covering up valid UFO reports under orders from the Air Force!


I'm sorry, I just have to call you on these remarks -

- Please link the the source of your claims, I highly doubt Hyneck ever wrote such a thing...

...and having read all of Vallee's works as well as every interview I could find, I can say with absolutely certainty that Jacque Vallee is an exposer of disinformation, not a promoter of it.



posted on Apr, 30 2015 @ 09:49 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

I agree, and I would add that up to date theory should be reapplied to those cases that were dismissed as simply impossible because of the parameters admissible at the time of investigation.

And I shall check out Dr Hal Putoff too, thank you.



edit on 30-4-2015 by Jonjonj because: my own stupid fault


You still owe me the Kip Thorne research though.
edit on 30-4-2015 by Jonjonj because: cos i can



posted on Apr, 30 2015 @ 10:06 PM
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As an experiencer of ufology, think that the whole public eye, outspoken authors and big names in all those fields are black ops, or have compromised their positions, perhaps sometimes to stay alive. And tend to run with my own experiences.



posted on Apr, 30 2015 @ 10:51 PM
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originally posted by: BlueMule
a reply to: JadeStar

Naw, you haven't deduced it.

As you should be aware, the experience of being a ufo contactee/abductee is basically mystical/psychic. The artistic temperament is more psychic than the scientific temperament. That's why artists have higher scoring patterns in psi experiments, and that's why the scientific temperament is ill equipped to understand the ufo phenomena. Apples and oranges, Ellie.




Yeah, we science undergrads are just boring, uncreative, socially awkward people.

It's a great hollywood stereotype. But like most things from hollywood it's kinda b.s. tbh.

"We're up all night to get data..."
Though this was done by neurology students it is kinda an anthem for us astronomy ones as well.




Now, I could make a very logical counter argument that your "creative/artistic" people are fantasy prone and have active imaginations while also not being well versed in the mental tools with which to test what they think is real and what is not, but that would be way too easy and would be equally as silly a stereotype to the one you presented.

Very little is binary or black and white. Everyone has a little scientist and a little artist in them.


edit on 30-4-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2015 @ 11:13 PM
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originally posted by: game over man
I personally believe ufology has gone down the drain, and our regular space sciences have surpassed ufology on the hunt for ET.


That was basically one of the points I was trying to make. Most people my age, at the ones which I have encountered, feel the same way.



I still think the government has covered up UFO's and alien visitation on the other hand. It's threads like these along with hoax threads that make it extremely hard to research on your own, so you might as well give up and wait for a Ufologist to present something, right? What can we do? Nothing. It's a battle that goes no where due to official denial. Now they deny UFO's completely when before they said UFO's pose no threat. Interesting...


And this was my point kind of in responding to Scdfa.

I said, "Ok, so you want scientists to take your story of alien abduction seriously. Fine, then what?" There's nothing really to test in these cases other than the veracity of the witness. The aliens don't hang around long or they are sitting under ice in some super secret facility which might as well not exist.

Those clamoring for mainstream science to take the UFO thing seriously have to understand that if there is nothing to test, and all anyone has is a story, no matter how deliciously good it sounds, there is nothing anyone in the sciences can do unless there is something testable. And by "UFO thing" I'm not talking about people who like yourself realize UFO simply means unidentified flying object which could be anything. I'm instead talking about people like Scdfa who "just knows that UFOs are due to extraterrestrial aliens" due to their experiences)

What those people want is typically is a sympathetic ear from someone who will add validity to their story.

They want instant validation, not confirmation through investigation. Because if they wanted the latter they'd realize that with nothing to test other than a story, any investigation would be pretty much a waste of time.



I was kinda hoping Jade Star would make a pro-ufo thread


Did you see the one I did on "the Greys"?



and maybe debunk or qualify the claims of UFO's on radar or seen by pilots moving at un-earthly speeds. That would be cool.


Radar is a funny thing. People like to think of it like a sort of camera but it's not. And those who understand how radar works can tell you of all sorts of phantoms which appear on radar as a result of various atmospheric and other phenomena.

So a radar UFO alone is not that interesting. A radar report correlated with a visual report is a bit more interesting but in the end what we're left with is at best something like "there was an object, it was tracked on radar, it remains unidentified".

And I'm fine with that. I have no problem accepting that. There was data collected and logged somewhere, it can presumably be re-examined, etc.

I DO however have a problem with people who then conclude that data indicates ET is here, abducting people in the middle of the night, signing treaties with the US government, taking "hybrid children" on late night shopping trips for strawberry ice cream and rocking out to Tibetan music.

Or bringing "love and light" from the Pleiades.... :facepalm:
edit on 30-4-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 30 2015 @ 11:20 PM
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originally posted by: Jonjonj
a reply to: JadeStar

I agree, and I would add that up to date theory should be reapplied to those cases that were dismissed as simply impossible because of the parameters admissible at the time of investigation.

And I shall check out Dr Hal Putoff too, thank you.




You still owe me the Kip Thorne research though.


You might be interested in the EM drive work at NASA as well....

www.nasaspaceflight.com...


A group at NASA’s Johnson Space Center has successfully tested an electromagnetic (EM) propulsion drive in a vacuum – a major breakthrough for a multi-year international effort comprising several competing research teams. Thrust measurements of the EM Drive defy classical physics’ expectations that such a closed (microwave) cavity should be unusable for space propulsion because of the law of conservation of momentum.


For me, I'm inclined to say "NO FREAKIN WAY!!!!" but then again, I'm just an undergrad and apparently there's a lot we still need to learn about physics and research such as that at NASA could open up a speedy pathway to other planets. So who is to say "they can't get here from there?"

Stuff like this thrills science because it gives us a glimpse into things we did not know were possible. I know that people who work at NASA are very sound minds and very careful about their work. They are downplaying a lot of this cutting edge research because no one wants to look stupid if it all turned out to be a problem with the testbed but you might just be seeing the beginnings of something which could lead to a warp drive there....

Of course if "someone else" out there has developed warp drives as a result of microwave based EM drive research the microwaves produced by such a craft could be detectable.

And guess who happens to have equipment which routinely scans the skies in the microwave spectrum.... Yep... radio astronomers and SETI....
edit on 30-4-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 04:08 AM
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a reply to: JadeStar





Instead you saw a few names you recognized and threw out the whole list based on what you think is "disinformation" simply because it challenges and brings into question your belief system.


Not quite, but thank you for the colorful characterization. I had five minutes before I had to leave and ran out of time on your list of underachievers.



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 04:19 AM
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originally posted by: lostgirl

originally posted by: Scdfa

Vallee? Disinformation

Hyneck? Admitted to disinformation. In fact, Hyneck wrote in his book that he ENJOYED covering up valid UFO reports under orders from the Air Force!


I'm sorry, I just have to call you on these remarks -

- Please link the the source of your claims, I highly doubt Hyneck ever wrote such a thing...

...and having read all of Vallee's works as well as every interview I could find, I can say with absolutely certainty that Jacque Vallee is an exposer of disinformation, not a promoter of it.






In his 1977 book, Hynek admitted that he enjoyed his role as a debunker for the Air Force. He also noted that debunking was what the Air Force expected of him.

The Hynek UFO Report (1977)
en.wikipedia.org...

Vallee is disinformation.
After forty years of study, all he can say is he doesn't know anything. He insists we ignore the ET hypothesis, then suggests it may be weather related? Absurd. Disinfo.



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 06:32 AM
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a reply to: Scdfa




What a joke.
Mendel? Disinformation
Sagan? Disinformation
Vallee? Disinformation

You missed the Aviaries Owl Dr Hal Puthoff , definitely a strange bird.



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 03:12 PM
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originally posted by: Scdfa
The Hynek UFO Report (1977)
en.wikipedia.org...

Vallee is disinformation.
After forty years of study, all he can say is he doesn't know anything. He insists we ignore the ET hypothesis, then suggests it may be weather related? Absurd. Disinfo.


You know, the more I read of your posts, the more I see your failure to base your claims on genuine research...

Wikipedia should only be sourced when you have checked that whoever wrote the page did proper research by checking the references in their bibliographies...

The Hynek quote you base your claim on was taken out of the context of his book by the author of the Wikipedia page you linked!

If you had done true research by actually reading Hynek's book for yourself, you would know that he was talking about his past as a debunker - before he became convinced that UFOs are real and that there is government cover-up of them.

Here's a link to a free online copy of the book: The Hynek UFO Report

You also have obviously never read any of Vallee's books or you would know that he actually wrote a whole book exposing government disinformation!!

And although his investigations indicate that UFO phenomena are paranormal/other dimensional rather than ET, he certainly does not ever suggest 'ignoring' any hypothesis!

Vallee is a scientist to the core - and the fact is: there are many UFO sightings which can be attributed to the weather; this does not mean that anyone (least of all Jacque Vallee) is saying that 'all' sightings are weather related...


Scdfa -
You are doing yourself no favor here at ATS by insisting on your absolute knowledge of UFO 'answers' while offering no legitimate sources for your supposed 'information'...

I believe you when you say you've had experiences of UFO phenomena, but you totally discredit yourself when you base all your beliefs about UFOs/Aliens on 'only' your experience and other people's hearsay...

Just because your experience was real, doesn't mean that all the ones in the books were real. And just because someone's blog or Wikipedia page quotes an investigator, doesn't mean they are quoting correctly...

This is why you need to look to doing your own research with original source materials rather than relying on what other people have 'said' is in those materials...


In closing: I highly recommend that you refrain from commenting on Jacque Vallee until you have read (at the very least) his books, "Forbidden Science 1" and "Forbidden Science 2" (sorry I don't have time to link those)...

...Those books are publications of personal journals from the decades when he was most active in UFO research and will give you a clear picture of how honorable a scientist and UFO investigator Vallee is.

You also might enjoy reading his UFO investigation 'trilogy' books, "Dimensions: A Casebook of Alien Contact", "Confrontations", and "Revelations"...

Those three offer more in depth write-ups of his research than the journals...


edit on 1-5-2015 by lostgirl because: addendum



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 07:13 PM
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The Hynek quote you base your claim on was taken out of the context of his book by the author of the Wikipedia page you linked!
a reply to: lostgirl

Out of context my butt. You do realize that Hyneck was disinformation for decades before his late-in-life conversion, right? Admittedly so?



If you had done true research by actually reading Hynek's book for yourself, you would know that he was talking about his past as a debunker - before he became convinced that UFOs are real and that there is government cover-up of them


I'm well aware of that, kitten, and I never indicated otherwise. So save your corrections until I'm incorrect. I was completely correct in calling Hyneck disinformation, he admits it, and the quote was accurate.

I'm not certain what credentials you have that justify your demeanor of assumed superiority, But it is apparently quite unfounded.

How did you come by your information on aliens?

I paid a great price for my knowledge, first hand alien contact throughout my life.

You read books? So have I. Plus the actual experiences, that is.





This is why you need to look to doing your own research with original source materials rather than relying on what other people have 'said' is in those materials...



I'm a MUFON field investigator and I have worked with Budd Hopkins.
What exactly have you done in terms of "doing your own research"?



In closing: I highly recommend that you refrain from commenting on Jacque Vallee until you have read (at the very least) his books, "Forbidden Science 1" and "Forbidden Science 2" (sorry I don't have time to link those)...


In closing, I highly recommend you refrain from acting as if you know more than you actually do.

I've read plenty of Vallee's published work, I have an extensive library of out of print and limited edition UFO books by hundreds of authors. I've seen Vallee speak, and read his interviews.
I'm as qualified as you are to voice my opinion on Vallee, and I am of the opinion he is disinformation.
Disagree if you want to, but he has really added nothing to a very serious, real life situation that borders on crisis.

Vallee has added nothing of substance, that's why he is so popular with the debunker crowd as well.

Have you ever considered that you are simply not as smart as you think you are? It might bear looking into. I highly recommend it.





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posted on May, 1 2015 @ 09:13 PM
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a reply to: Scdfa


I'm a MUFON field investigator and I have worked with Budd Hopkins.

You pulled that out of your butt just now after months of rants?



posted on May, 1 2015 @ 11:57 PM
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a reply to: lostgirl





And although his investigations indicate that UFO phenomena are paranormal/other dimensional rather than ET, he certainly does not ever suggest 'ignoring' any hypothesis!


www.youtube.com...

Here is a video of Vallee from 2014, in which he urges us to research UFOs "without using the Extraterrestrial hypothesis as the dominant hypothesis to be tested".

edit on 2-5-2015 by Scdfa because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 12:04 AM
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a reply to: ZetaRediculian

You have no idea of the extent of my work in this field. Now you know a little.


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posted on May, 2 2015 @ 01:41 AM
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originally posted by: Scdfa
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

You have no idea of the extent of my work in this field.


No I don't.


Now you know a little.


No I don't.



posted on May, 2 2015 @ 02:43 AM
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originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: Scdfa
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

You have no idea of the extent of my work in this field.


No I don't.


Now you know a little.


No I don't.



That's right. Now troll along.







 
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