Why Arming Ukraine could be a dangerous escalation......

a reply to: JBurns

If you're talking about the recent rocket attack in Mariupol then the source was the OSCE itself. You can rea the report that was filed on their website.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: Xcathdra

MH17 was downed by a BUK.

So the results of the investigation are out then? Must have missed it. Got a link?

sure.. do a search for MH17 and you will find several threads on the matter, including the one where the dutch investigation prelim results stated it was a high velocity projectile caused by a sam.

The report on fault should be out around August of this year.

The report said MH17 crashed due to a "large number of high-energy objects" penetrating the fuselage.

Although the report did not mention a missile, impact with a large number of fragments would be consistent with a "proximity" warhead, designed to explode in the air and hurl shrapnel at its target, said Tim Ripley, a defense analyst with Jane's Defense Weekly magazine.

From Reuters. The prelim report just states high-energy objects, which still doesn't exclude AAM or cannon fire, so basically we still don't know what brought it down.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: PizzaAnyday505
a reply to: Xcathdra

Hasn't been debunked. Proven on ATS again and again

You keep failing to disprove it

Please pay attention to the conversations before you answer. That way you will know what's being talked about so when you reply your response will make sense.

There was no coup in Ukraine.
MH17 was downed by a BUK.
Russia invaded Ukraine.

All proven and a lot of pro Russians in denial.

Its that very denial that supports the argument as to why we should arm Ukraine.

And now some things which are actually true...

- You have a country which had plans to attack 3 of your allies

- You have a country which plants military hardware on your border

- You have a country which tries to bring even more military at your border

- You warn that country not to go and try again to put more military on your doorstep or else you`re forced for your own protection to do something against it resulting in territorial loss of the given country

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin allegedly declared at a NATO-Russia summit in 2008 that if Ukraine joined NATO his country could contend to annex the Ukrainian East and Crimea.

- You have a country which starts to attack you with the military brought next to you

- You have a country which starts to attack one of your allies

- You have a country which attacks another one of your allies

- You have a country which ignores the previous warning about not trying again to put more military on your doorstep and who`s able to act really surprised about what happened when they still did it while they were fully aware what would happen

...but all of this didn`t happen and are lies of course.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

and yet Russia stands alone.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Doesn't make it so regardless how many time you repeat it

Your facts are MSA facts which stands for mainstream media of the west

So you can keep posting till cows come home, and they never will because there are no cows lol

originally posted by: Xcathdra
and yet Russia stands alone.

Your opinion is worthless because you don't even know the biggest economy of the world China is with Russia

And so is the entire East

If you don't know the basics, why engage in discussion

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

You parrot anything western mainstream media parrots

Not worth my time to go into deep discussion with you, sorry

a reply to: PizzaAnyday505

Considering you just joined on the 5th you have not been here long enough for me to care about your opinion.

Feel free to support your claims on the largest economy and please point out where Russia is included with China.
Same goes for your middle east claim.

If you cant support your claims why bother posting?

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

and yet Russia stands alone.

itar-tass.com...

BRICs are always with Russia and will always be.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

and yet Russia stands alone.

The mindset is, if you are not with us you are against us. Why in the name of all that's decent would anyone support the USA's foreign policy? We have seen the recent history in the middle east and that debacle has been exposed for what it is. Why would anyone believe anything you say? The 5 billion in aid spent in the Ukraine paints it's own picture.
I have no love for Russia or Putin but in the case of Ukraine the USA has been involved since day one.

The only nation beating the drum of war is the USA. I have asked repeatedly since the beginning of this conflict, why is Ukraine any of the USA's business? Of course we know the real motivations but justification is always, sovereign nation, annexation etc. As if the USA cares about any of that nonsense but you have to spin it. What else...ah yes, demonise Putin and how dangerous he is with his KGB background and how he plans to rebuild the old USSR.

The MSM stance that you endorse and support is bought only by those who would accept blindly anything presented by the government etc. It would be nice if the USA was a force for good in the world but every action is always driven by a subversive agenda. Perhaps that is just human nature and the way of the world but it is important that if nothing else we call it for what it is and maintain our own integrity.

The EU leaders have all pushed for dialogue and have no desire to escalate the conflict, at least publicly. The only nation pushing for escalation is the USA.

originally posted by: victor7

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

and yet Russia stands alone.

itar-tass.com...

BRICs are always with Russia and will always be.

Then why did they not support Russia in the UN reference Crimea?
The Russian economy is getting hit hard yet I don't see other BRICS nations helping them out.


BRICS is an economic alliance and even then it wont come into its own until the 2030's to 2050's and that is provided no major wars break out.

The kicker is all members of BRICS are also embers of the G series, IMF, etc.


When it comes to Crimea and Ukraine Russia stands alone. I would ager that behind closed doors China is pretty pissed with Russia's actions. It effectively shot down the ability of China to pull that maneuver with Taiwan.

a reply to: midicon

The US is not beating the drums of war Russia is. Not only in their rhetoric but in their threats towards other European nations.

Secondly it has nothing to do with the your either with us or your against us. Those nations that chose not to support Russia in the UN, specifically BRICS nations, did so of their own free will. You also ignored the fact that nations came forward and started they were threatened by Russia in an effort to force their support for Russian actions.

There are several European countries who are supplying lethal aid to Ukraine. The US is currently not selling anything but defensive items.

Russia is the one who invaded Ukraine - they are the aggressors.

a reply to: Xcathdra

The Eu invaded Ukraine
Russia is/has/will respond

a reply to: Xcathdra

You are not the world police. Russia and Ukraine are none of your business. I am sure we all understand Russia's actions in Ukraine, that does not mean we approve of them. At some point you may realise that you do not have the moral high ground. We know from recent history how the USA operates. It may be that the USA likes to camouflage it's behaviour and give it an altruistic spin, I suppose we should be grateful for that.

If another conflict were to arise tomorrow, I might be grateful that we have the USA to intervene but I am under no illusions as to what they ultimately stand for. My own country is no better, I am from the UK. Our own government and surrounding institutions are just as corrupt as yours.

So is Moscow just as corrupt.. it is a country run by the intelligence services and the Mafia....with little differentiation between the two......Russia is a failed state in waiting.....It will be broken up from its own internal divisions....

originally posted by: stirling
So is Moscow just as corrupt.. it is a country run by the intelligence services and the Mafia....with little differentiation between the two......Russia is a failed state in waiting.....It will be broken up from its own internal divisions....

The USA is exactly the same. Run by the intelligence services and the mafia, with little differentiation between the two. The mafia of course not guised in that old early 20th century costume. I don't think Russia is a failed state that's just rhetoric and nonsense, mixed in with a little wishful thinking and spin. If it breaks up in the future from internal division then what of it?

At least Moscow isn't in your back yard beating the war drum. It would be nice if just for once the USA could get a taste of it's own medicine. All the countries in the world should get together and sanction the # out of them.

originally posted by: all2human
a reply to: Xcathdra

The Eu invaded Ukraine
Russia is/has/will respond

Russia invaded Ukraine... For some reason Putin and his followers cant seem to comprehend that. No amount of spin will change that fact and the bulk of the world agrees.

a reply to: midicon

Ukraine is a sovereign nation whose borders were recognized via the Budapest agreement.
Russia invaded Ukraine.
Ukraine, as a sovereign nation can ask for assistance and they have.

The ability to determine a foreign policy and who they will and wont be friends with is completely up to Ukraine.

Not the US, the EU, NATO or RUSSIA.

the west will butt out the moment Putin withdraws his occupation forces (which includes the pro Russian rebels).

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: midicon

Ukraine is a sovereign nation whose borders were recognized via the Budapest agreement.
Russia invaded Ukraine.
Ukraine, as a sovereign nation can ask for assistance and they have.

The ability to determine a foreign policy and who they will and wont be friends with is completely up to Ukraine.

Not the US, the EU, NATO or RUSSIA.

the west will butt out the moment Putin withdraws his occupation forces (which includes the pro Russian rebels).

That is all fine and reads well but...what about those countries in the middle east that the US has invaded and destroyed did they not have sovereignty? Where is the justice for them?

Ukraine as a sovereign country can ask for assistance but we know the game the USA has played. Now that I think of it all of the blood that has been spilled so far has come about as a direct result of the USA's dubious machinations. People like Kerry have some nerve. One would think that his role would be one of apology and humility and some sort recognition of the death and destruction meted out by his country in recent years. It is the exact opposite, and Americans bold as brass would somehow support him. Shame on all of you.

a reply to: all2human

The Eu invaded Ukraine
Russia is/has/will respond

No Russia did, and Russia has done it with their military.

Also you do know that a country asks to be part of the EU the EU doesn't invade countries.