Why Arming Ukraine could be a dangerous escalation......

a reply to: midicon

That is all fine and reads well but...what about those countries in the middle east that the US has invaded and destroyed did they not have sovereignty? Where is the justice for them?

Where is the justice for those countries Russia has invaded and decided to annex part of?

It seems you may have forgotten the brutality Russia has done to countries it invaded, where is the outrage over those since you seem to be discussing problems countries have caused as of late?

Or is this just bash the US while Russia does as they want without any outrage from the pro Russian crowd?

a reply to: Flatcoat

From Reuters. The prelim report just states high-energy objects, which still doesn't exclude AAM or cannon fire, so basically we still don't know what brought it down.

And what plane is it that would be responsible for the downing, but remember the plane in question is one that can't perform that feat, but feel free to provide something that can back the claim if of an air to air missile, or cannon fire which btw hasn't happened yet.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: midicon

That is all fine and reads well but...what about those countries in the middle east that the US has invaded and destroyed did they not have sovereignty? Where is the justice for them?

Where is the justice for those countries Russia has invaded and decided to annex part of?

It seems you may have forgotten the brutality Russia has done to countries it invaded, where is the outrage over those since you seem to be discussing problems countries have caused as of late?

Or is this just bash the US while Russia does as they want without any outrage from the pro Russian crowd?

There is probably no justice in these matters really. I only mention the middle east to point out the hypocrisy of the USA's stance in the matter of Ukraine. I have not forgotten anything. I am not pro Russia or Putin. I have said I can understand Russia's response, I haven't said anything more. The outrage is not aimed at Russia in this instance because it has the fingerprints of the American dream of regime change all over it. I would be happy to praise the USA if I could find something worthy of such. You will notice I haven't praised Russia.

We have to bash the USA in this instance, they have taken the idea of regime change to Russia's border. Not only that but to a place where Russia has so much history and strategic ties with. Do you really think for one minute that anyone buys the fake outrage that pours from the likes of Kerry..or you for that matter?

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Ukraine DIDN'T ASK to be apart of the EU, it was forced to.

www.kyivpost.com...
Hence invasion
definition :
Entrance as if to take possession or overrun
dictionary.reference.com...

a reply to: all2human

When Yanukovych back tracked on signing the agreement people started protesting. So yes, the Ukrainians did want it. The reason he did not sign the EU agreement was because of pressure from Russia.

The more I study this topic, the more I see Nuland as a rogue component in government. I don't believe that the US sanctioned it. Instead, I think Nuland and Pyatt conspired to take advantage of the rift in Ukraine over EU. I think Russia also capitalized on this instability by doing a land grab.

US government may be guilty of covering for the rogue Nuland, but its security concerns are valid. As is the UA government, which is entitled to its territorial sovereignty.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Flatcoat

From Reuters. The prelim report just states high-energy objects, which still doesn't exclude AAM or cannon fire, so basically we still don't know what brought it down.

And what plane is it that would be responsible for the downing, but remember the plane in question is one that can't perform that feat, but feel free to provide something that can back the claim if of an air to air missile, or cannon fire which btw hasn't happened yet.

Well, so far I've seen a number of eye witness testimonies for other aircraft very close to MH17 when it went down, but none for a BUK. In fact we've seen zero evidence for a SAM launch. And besides, I was responding to Xcathdra's claim that the prelim report stated damage was from a SAM, when in fact it didn't. It's quite telling how you mob have latched onto the Russians saying "maybe an SU-25" like that's all the Ukranians have. Fun fact: the Ukranians have many aircraft capable of bringing down an airliner. According to you all the radar data the Russians supplied was false, but somehow managed to correctly ID an aircraft that apparently wasn't there. So, was the radar data correct or not?

a reply to: Flatcoat

how can "eye witnesses" see through cloud cover?

People seem to forget there was a thunderstorm in the region.

This is some fine twisting from the media about Putin.

In 2008 Putin reportedly threatened Ukraine with nuclear missiles if the country joined NATO.

Source

But in reality he meant, it would be sad if he had to point them on the Ukraine because the Ukraine would become NATO (militarily wise a necessity).

"It is horrible to say and even horrible to think that, in response to the deployment of such facilities in Ukrainian territory, which cannot theoretically be ruled out, Russia could target its missile systems at Ukraine," Putin said at a joint news conference with Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, who was visiting the Kremlin. "Imagine this just for a second."

Source

And again...

Putin once famously said that the fall of the Soviet Union was a "genuine tragedy." This may sound like he's longing for his days in Communist Russia, but really what he's talking about is something different — a loss of an empire.

Source

He was actual saying that it was a tragedy because many from who he thought belonged to Russia became disconnected from Russia.

MOSCOW — Russian President Vladimir Putin told the nation Monday that the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century” and had fostered separatist movements inside Russia.

In his annual state of the nation address to parliament and the country’s top political leaders, Putin said the Soviet collapse also was a tragedy for Russians.

“First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said. “As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory.

“The epidemic of collapse has spilled over to Russia itself,” he said, referring to separatist movements such as those in Chechnya.

Source

And that`s how you get fooled by the media.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien


and yet Putin invaded Ukraine and is illegally occupying Crimea. They are in the process of annexing land in Georgia and are attempting the same in Moldova.

To top it off the Russian government is trying to pass a bill that would nullify the legislation that handed Crimea to Ukraine in the 1950's.

There is also the Budapest agreement where the Russian government recognized all borders of Ukraine.

Hypothetical -
If, as Putin claims, the vote in crimea was valid why would they need to draft legislation changing the original legislation. Even then there is still the Budapest agreement, which Russia signed which recognizes Ukraine's borders, including that of Crimea.


Its coming across as trying to get around the illegal referendum vote.

a reply to: Xcathdra

...and yet Ukraine lost first territory to Romania so they could be profited by Americans and when that wasn`t enough the rest of the Ukraine had to be taken in whole to be profited from also...Ukraine has more gas fields and other stuff which the American Oligarchs desperately wanted.

a reply to: Xcathdra

So you agree then,due process was not followed to remove the president to secure an EU deal
Unless the violent civil unrest resulting in the storming of the presidents home and offices, chasing him and his family out of town under threat of death follows constitutional protocol in the removal of a president.
The reason The president did not sign was because Russia offered Ukraine a better deal
www.rferl.org...

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

You guys constantly use the same false excuses time and time again. When in doubt invoke oil and hope people don't notice. You guys tried using the same excuse in Iraq, even though the bulk of the oil contracts when to non US businesses, including China.

Are you suggesting Russia is annexing these territories for their own resource interest?

Poroshenko and his friends in power are truly idiots and monsters on their own people.

Putin did recognize Porky as the President. It was also known that Ukraine was not yet ready by 2-3 to even 5 years before it gets to join the EU. This was mainly due to internal financial crisis and also industrial and business standards not upto the par with EU.

To avoid the war, Ukraine could have joined the Customs Union with Russia and brought its business and economic house in order. Later on Kiev could have always walked out to join the EU. It might also have been possible that whole Customs Union would have joined EU and that would have been a welcome note as CU would have comprised of more than 200 million consumers.

There would not have been any war and gory bloodshed that we have witnessed with no end seen presently.

Either Porky and team are idiots or they are being compelled by outside interests. They seem to have no regard for the good of the common people.

I don't think anyone but Ukrainians give a # about the people there.....

a reply to: victor7


Considering Russia's response to ukraine wanting nothing to do with russia I doubt we would have seen russia letting them go without invading them.

Russia cannot compete with the EU and they know this. Their only option, aside from coming into the 21st century with their economy, is to latch onto surrounding former ssr's and force their dependence on russian items.

Russia already screwed Belarus by taking action prohibited in their economic pact.

They just screwed India over on their joint development of a 5th generation stealth fighter. Russia is refusing to share the required technical data and pushed back delivery to india to a decade from now.

originally posted by: victor7
Poroshenko and his friends in power are truly idiots and monsters on their own people.

Putin did recognize Porky as the President. It was also known that Ukraine was not yet ready by 2-3 to even 5 years before it gets to join the EU. This was mainly due to internal financial crisis and also industrial and business standards not upto the par with EU.

To avoid the war, Ukraine could have joined the Customs Union with Russia and brought its business and economic house in order. Later on Kiev could have always walked out to join the EU. It might also have been possible that whole Customs Union would have joined EU and that would have been a welcome note as CU would have comprised of more than 200 million consumers.

There would not have been any war and gory bloodshed that we have witnessed with no end seen presently.

Either Porky and team are idiots or they are being compelled by outside interests. They seem to have no regard for the good of the common people.

So Your admitting Russia invaded Ukraine because they didn't want to deal with Russia anymore. Talk about not being able to handle rejection Putin should get some help.

By the way business works that way there are always people compelling others to do business with them. I know In Russia it's all about force and bribes but in the real world you simply make a better offer.

Russia couldn't compete on the business world so they went with using force only problem is Ukraine is tired of playing the game.

Funniest part is people like you who say we'll Ukraine should just give in to Russian demands to save there people. Think about that give in do what Russia wants and they will allow you to remain a country. No wonder Russians are losing friends fast in the world.

originally posted by: dragonridr

So Your admitting Russia invaded Ukraine because they didn't want to deal with Russia anymore. Talk about not being able to handle rejection Putin should get some help.

Well the Russian Duma is trying to pass legislation nullifying the hand over of Crimea to Ukraine from back in the 1950's. I always find it interesting when Russia can not only violate treaties, but try to rewrite history in an effort to make their actions "look" lawful when they are anything but.

I refuse to believe the Russian people are this stupid.

Just announced on BBC British army sending 75 military personnel to Ukraine

My stupid flippin government

If it's not killing people with brown faces in the ME it's playing with fire in Eastern Europe. Sorry Russia not all of us agree with what our government does regarding its policy on Ukraine

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The start of the proxy war.
The UK would not have done it with out the USA go ahead.
So expect arming soon.

Then sit back and watch the escalation.