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Why Arming Ukraine could be a dangerous escalation......

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posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 04:16 AM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien



You're welcome !

 


To get back to the topic, I wonder what the will be the outcome of the current discussion between the european and the russians ...
European Leaders Push New Peace Plan For Ukraine




posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 04:30 AM
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Here`s another good read about it, and in which the translator questions if there`s rift between US and Europe or if it`s a game of "good cop and bad cop."

"We are facing a total war"--Hollande



“We have two choices. We can adopt the logic that the participants ought to be armed. Since Russia is arming the separatists, we will do the same for Ukrainians so that they can defend themselves. But can you draw the line between defensive and offensive weaponry?”—asked Hollande. “The other option is to try and find a compromise and convince both sides to cease fire. Diplomacy, negotiations, but they ought not continue endlessly…Because we are dealing with a war—war which can become total.”


Source
edit on 6 2 2015 by BornAgainAlien because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 04:45 AM
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Let me put this simply. Don't create another Afghansitan in central Europe Xcathdra. Don't do it. If you nYanks start supplying tech to Kiev this is down the line. An Afghanistan type situation. Please don't do it. Ukraine means much more to Russia than it will ever do to you on the other side of Planet earth. Please Xcathdra don't support your government if it does start fuelling a proxy war with weapons. A proxy war in the Middle East or somewhere else please, not in the heart of Europe.

a reply to: Xcathdra



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 05:38 AM
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a reply to: stirling

But US wants escalation

US wants Ukraine and Russia bogged in war

Why else would US pay for revolution in Kiev in the first place,

Instead of attacking the weak, US this time wants to take out another major power



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 08:26 AM
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a reply to: mortex

Ah yes...yet another "I know best" out there.

Kissinger enjoys his sphere's of influence and unfettered dominion over a vast heard of countries so he's willing to sacrifice a few countries to others. Oddly the world is moving on from that power model and the EU is slowly evolving and attracting new countries with the way it is run. However Kissinger says people in a country don't get to choose who they align with, that is determined by proximity to a great power.

Kissinger has basically been involved in every war on the planet since he came of age. Following his advice might not be a good way forward to a better future.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 08:30 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: mortex

The purpose is to debate and discuss.. There is side A and there is side B. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

When the same accusations keep popping up time after time, even when its been disproved, it becomes problematic. When you have claims made with nothing to back it up it becomes problematic. When Russia media gets caught time and time again lying in their broadcasts it becomes problematic.

When claims are made in multiple threads that Ukraine used WMD's it must be followed with a source. After several attempts to get the link the op just ignored the request.

It seems that when a topic is posted and individuals in that thread lose out on the debate for whatever reason, they go into mode of raising issues already discussed, which in turns buries the valid information.

Its extremely frustrating.

These debates should be a crucible, where the back and forth burns off the outer coat of mis-information, omissions, lies, etc until we are left with a purer product that is close to the truth.




Except what people like you do, is not discuss and debate a topic. You virtually shout people down and berate them and belittle them with your comments.
You've done it to numerous people, most people just give up and stop wasting their time with people like you.
Others like that Agent USA Supporter or whatever his name is who is part of the pro-Russia group I was talking about in my post, just keep coming back for more arguments with people like you in the pro-USA group.

They need to create a USA vs Russia sub forum where you guys can go and duke it out and leave the rest of the forum in peace.

We aren't all angels, admittedly. But all you guys do is argue with each other about who is right and wrong.

You can't sit there and tell us you want the truth, in any form, when you basically deny anything the other side has to say, whether it's ridiculous like claiming that Ukraine uses WMD or other claims.

You want proof you say. You say the Russian media lies. Yet you rely on Western media, ie Western propaganda for your arguments. The pro-Russia group does the same, they rely on their sides propaganda for their arguments.

None of you are willing to compromise or find a middle ground.
edit on 6-2-2015 by mortex because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 09:05 AM
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originally posted by: mortex

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: mortex

The purpose is to debate and discuss.. There is side A and there is side B. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

When the same accusations keep popping up time after time, even when its been disproved, it becomes problematic. When you have claims made with nothing to back it up it becomes problematic. When Russia media gets caught time and time again lying in their broadcasts it becomes problematic.

When claims are made in multiple threads that Ukraine used WMD's it must be followed with a source. After several attempts to get the link the op just ignored the request.

It seems that when a topic is posted and individuals in that thread lose out on the debate for whatever reason, they go into mode of raising issues already discussed, which in turns buries the valid information.

Its extremely frustrating.

These debates should be a crucible, where the back and forth burns off the outer coat of mis-information, omissions, lies, etc until we are left with a purer product that is close to the truth.




Except what people like you do, is not discuss and debate a topic. You virtually shout people down and berate them and belittle them with your comments.
You've done it to numerous people, most people just give up and stop wasting their time with people like you.
Others like that Agent USA Supporter or whatever his name is who is part of the pro-Russia group I was talking about in my post, just keep coming back for more arguments with people like you in the pro-USA group.

They need to create a USA vs Russia sub forum where you guys can go and duke it out and leave the rest of the forum in peace.

We aren't all angels, admittedly. But all you guys do is argue with each other about who is right and wrong.

You can't sit there and tell us you want the truth, in any form, when you basically deny anything the other side has to say, whether it's ridiculous like claiming that Ukraine uses WMD or other claims.

You want proof you say. You say the Russian media lies. Yet you rely on Western media, ie Western propaganda for your arguments. The pro-Russia group does the same, they rely on their sides propaganda for their arguments.

None of you are willing to compromise or find a middle ground.
I cautiously speak in my own defense regarding this, knowing that you are likely to dismiss it as just another "pro-west Hawk" trying to rationalize my radical ideals. I lean pro-west because while most of the UN and NATO agree Putin is being aggressive with his conquest of Eastern Ukraine, the only government body that seems to have the opposing view is the accused aggressor.

I'm more inclined to believe a group of nations united in one view rather than one nation fiercely denying said same view.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 09:25 AM
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a reply to: mortex

Most people come here wanting to find out what goes on, "the things that aren`t being told in Western media."

Western media makes a story, and let`s say there are 10 important facts to tell, they leave out about 3 of them and portray a whole different story with the rest of them. But those 3 facts are actual really important because it gives a whole different light on things. People in the alternative media are trying to figure out what those left out pieces of information are and what the consequences are of it.

And it`s simply natural to react when you read crap to wanting to correct it.

It`s a load of crap that the truth lies in the middle, because the truth is just there and not to be subjected to anything if it`s the actual truth...it just his way to make the impression there`s some truth in what he claims and by so to confuse people.

But in the long run truth always wins.

More and more facts are emerging about what went and goes on, and by so to try and confuse people doesn`t work anymore.

He becomes frustrated (his own words) when the old trick to confuse people isn`t working anymore because simply ignoring too many facts exposes too quickly an agenda. That`s why politicians are also now attacking RT openly.

Anyone spending sometime on the internet learns over time very quickly to spot who`s agenda driven and who`s not. When as an example you look at #MH17 at Twitter you can see in almost a blink of an eye which feeds you just can ignore because they get paid to post scripts.

Long story short, it`s not working anymore and people have genuine concerns about there jobs...it`s a dramatic event that dwarfs everything which has ever happened in our history and no one is talking about it.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 09:59 AM
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originally posted by: stirling

I see Joe Bidens son as CEO of a Ukrainian fracking venture in what has been termed promising Ukrainian resource....
It makes me believe that the Ukraine was hornswoggled into the current predicament by corporate interests more than nationalistic furor....


Respectfully this is exactly what I am talking about.

Burisma - An energy company that is based out of Cyprus who has private operations in Ukraine in the energy sector.

* - Biden was not nor ever was named as CEO. Biden is a lawyer and is taking a position as the head lawyer for their legal unit which mainly deals with other organizations.


USAToday - Biden's son joins board of Ukraine gas company

Vice President Biden's son Hunter is joining the board of a gas company that operates in Ukraine.

Burisma Holdings, Ukraine's largest private gas producer, said Hunter Biden -- an attorney -- will be in charge of its legal unit and help the company with other international organizations.




"I believe that my assistance in consulting the Company on matters of transparency, corporate governance and responsibility, international expansion and other priorities will contribute to the economy and benefit the people of Ukraine," the younger Biden said in a statement.

The Biden appointment comes as the United States and allied nations try to help Ukraine reduce its dependence on Russian energy by developing other sources.



YahooNews - Ukrainian energy firm hires Biden son as lawyer

WASHINGTON (AP) — U.S. Vice President Joe Biden's visit Saturday to support Ukraine's fragile democracy came soon after his youngest son was hired by a private Ukrainian company that promotes energy independence from Moscow.

Yet that company leases natural gas fields in the breakaway Russian-backed state of Crimea and is owned by a former government minister with ties to Ukraine's ousted pro-Russian president.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 10:06 AM
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a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Ok.. then don't let the Russia government destabilize Europe with its 1th hour land grabs. Stop the individuals on this site from arguing that Ukraine is not a country nor is it sovereign and that its rightful place is under Russian occupation. Stop Putin from taking more Ukrainian lands in the name of the pro Russian rebels.

Prior to WWII Hitler did the same land grabs and Europe appeased him because Hitler kept telling them - this is the last border change. When Neville Chamberlain proclaimed peace in our times he could not have been farther from the truth.

it is the 21st century and the conquering of nations and annexation of those countries has no place in todays world. I don't care about historical arguments - it has NO place in todays world.

I advocate the use of military force to stop Russian aggression and occupation of sovereign nations. I reject the bs argument about spheres of influence and Russia's near abroad.

We either stop Putin now or we pay with more gallons of blood down the road. The US did its best to remain neutral and out of WWI. The US did its best to remain neutral and out of WWII. We got dragged into both world wars. We then had the cold war. Regardless of what you think of the US if a war breaks out in Europe the US will be forced to become involved.

Its easier to block Russia now than waste lives pushing Russian forces back across their own borders.

Putin and no one else is responsible for how this thing turns out.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 10:07 AM
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originally posted by: PizzaAnyday505


Why else would US pay for revolution in Kiev in the first place,



This has been debunked many times now so I am assuming you have new and compelling evidence to support your claim - link please.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 10:12 AM
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a reply to: mortex

What is interesting about what you stated is the fact that your post in this thread has absolutely nothing to do with the topic but is nothing more than bitching. How is your post not in contradiction with what you typed in it?

You added nothing to the conversation.


When a person constantly reports lies after lies, regardless of the amount of information put in front of them, then yes I guess you could say its a shout down. The difference as I see it is if we don't "shout" them down then they get away with posting the lie.


When they post propaganda from media sources who have been caught time and again lying in their news stories then they should not be used as a source. When the media outlet is controlled by the government they cease being a news media outlet and become an extension of public affairs.

Not challenging the lies that people post is nothing more than appeasement with the hope that by ignoring the lies they will just go away.

Appeasement does not work and it is people like you who always learn that lesson the hard way and always too late.


edit on 6-2-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 10:24 AM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Pot meet kettle...

How many topics have you authored that have been proven false and how many of your sources have been caught lying? How many times have you been called out for omitting information or changing titles of threads? Or outright lying about the information??

* - Russian claims of ethnic Russians being attacked.
* - Russian armed invasion of Ukraine.
* - Shoot down of MH17 with a BUK.
* - Shelling of civilian areas.
* - 5 billion in aid to Ukraine since the collapse of the soviet Union.
* - US mercenaries in Ukraine.

I can keep going but these are just a few areas where you and your sources have been discredited and debunked yet you continue to post the false information in other threads where they don't belong simply because you lost the argument in the said thread.

The truth does in fact meet somewhere in the middle and to argue otherwise makes you exactly what you accuse the other side of being. There are 2 sides to every story and each side will have their justifications although it does not mean either side is right based on those justifications.

I get the impression that some people are not accustomed to a free speech country where a government can be challenged by its people. This is not a site where one side can demand the other side be quiet so false facts can be posted without challenge (something certain people need to understand).

This is not a site where you make claims and don't support the claims with sources and people just have to accept that.

Every time you come into a thread and scream at the top of your lungs on an issue I will be right there screaming at the top of mine the counter argument with supporting evidence and sources to debunk the claim.


The theme of this site is deny ignorance. It is not post ignorance and then demand everyone who feels differently to be quiet and not challenge the claims.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 10:35 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra



I advocate the use of military force to stop Russian aggression and occupation of sovereign nations. I reject the bs argument about spheres of influence and Russia's near abroad.


I think you need your head examined. The USA should piss off out of Ukraine's business. I reject the bs argument that the US is the world's policeman. You would pursue and support the MSM narrative to the 9th. Hey, here I was thinking this is a conspiracy website and what do we have...Jen Saki and Marie Harf.
The Ukrainian affair has played out in the public eye, we know why the Russians have reacted as they have...no big secret there. The only conspiracy is the USA's involvement from beginning till present. Doesn't matter how you dress it up, I am sure it will be fully exposed in a few decades like all these things are.

Should the USA give arms to Ukraine? You people are nuts.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 10:37 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra




Every time you come into a thread and scream at the top of your lungs on an issue I will be right there screaming at the top of mine the counter argument with supporting evidence and sources to debunk the claim.


I have another, simpler strategy, whenever I see a post with you name attached I feel safe to skip it.
Unless I'm very bored and want to see another masterpiece of demagoguery.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 10:41 AM
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a reply to: midicon

no more nuts than those who think appeasement will stop Putin.


When European appeasement fails it will be the US who is dragged into a war.

You want the Us out of Ukraine.. no problem.. We will leave when Russia removes itself and its forces from Ukraine, including Crimea.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 10:42 AM
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originally posted by: kitzik

I have another, simpler strategy, whenever I see a post with you name attached I feel safe to skip it.
Unless I'm very bored and want to see another masterpiece of demagoguery.


Whatever works for you...

it helps me out with certain members.

Now, can we please return to the topic?



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 10:55 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
When European appeasement fails it will be the US who is dragged into a war.

Ain't that the Truth!!!

I love EU diplomacy but they really don't understand Putin and Russians in general. If they applied any serious sanctions or backed up their talk with any ounce of force the current mess in Ukraine wouldn't be where it is now.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 11:33 AM
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Xc brings up a good point regarding free press and speech. I feel they omit a lot of information from MSM. To me, they're the true culprit.

But yes, as someone said, I'm more than willing to find a moderate stance. Its been getting quite moderate. I just hope for any solution not bringing out WW3. Its not worth a nuclear war.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 11:34 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra



How many topics have you authored that have been proven false and how many of your sources have been caught lying? How many times have you been called out for omitting information or changing titles of threads? Or outright lying about the information??


I dunno, I don`t read every post you make because I don`t learn anything from it.

Have you kept the score about how many times you have called me or the sources I have quoted liars ?



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