The Immorality Of Eating Meat When There Are Vegi Alternatives Do People Care?

a reply to: Pitou

I don't feel attacked. I do feel that the animals are being attacked. My fave when I ate meat was pressed duck. Weird to even think about that now, and have learned since that the good taste of all the meat that I loved and craved was from the salt and seasonings, not the poor animals themselves. Yummmm, pressed duck, save the last quack for me!

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
Were not talking about animals in the wild eating other animals, disease, hormones, here on this thread we are talking about the ethics and morality of killing animals for food when we dont need to because of our advances in technology.

Exactly. So are we. And the discussion is -

if it's immoral for us to kill animals, is it not immoral for animals to kill animals, and if so, is it immoral for us NOT to kill omnivores and carnivores?

and: if it's immoral for us to kill animals, then is it moral for us to be forced to eat food that's not what we evolved to eat? Just because you're not an obligate omnivore doesn't mean an all vegetable diet is natural for you.

A discussion, unless by "discussion" you mean "yes" or "no", has to address the ramifications of the root statement. That's what discussions are. I understand you have no answer and want to avoid the point, but you know, you don't own the thread.

Now, back to discussing the morality of eating meat, TRY to answer - is it immoral for animals of ANY sort to eat meat?

That is the crux of what you asked. Like it or no.

a reply to: Bedlam

ATS has a fondness for yes/no threads. STAY ON TOPIC & ONLY STATE YOUR OPINION ONCE.

a reply to: Eunuchorn

Well, by this time I imagine he has the idea that the real question is, is it "moral" for anything to eat meat.

If it is, why? If that answer is 'because it's natural for them to', then game over. It's natural for US to.

And if it's NOT moral for anything to eat meat, then it's immoral for us not to kill all the omnivores and carnivores.

So he won't answer. Doesn't want it addressed. But the answer is, no. No, it's not immoral. It's not immoral for Flipper to eat fish. It's not immoral for Shamu to eat seals and slow swimming Inuit. It's not immoral for the Lion King to eat deer.

And for the same reason, it's not immoral for ME to. Or unnatural. I evolved as a facultative omnivore. I can eat nothing but plants. I can eat nothing but meat. Either way, I can go a long time before I have deficiency diseases. But it's natural for me to be omnivorous.

And if not for a single point mutation, I could do without plants. It's actually an accident of evolution that I need plants at all. A bit of gene therapy, you might fix that.

Having read the entire thread, and finding it very entertaining, I would like to offer a different perspective.

This discussion is obviously only relevant to people in wealthy countries. Try discussing the morality of eating meat with someone struggling in a 3rd world country, trying to feed their family. It would be ludicrous to even think about not eating whatever was available (excluding other humans IMHO) to avoid starvation. In my opinion, this is a petty rich mans' dilemma, and a narcissistic judgement of other people's choices.

That being said, I am assuming most of us here are not living poverty stricken areas. Yet certainly, within 20 miles of where ANY of us live, people and children are poor and hungry. So, my question to the OP is this: Is it moral to spend so much energy on this thread while PEOPLE down the street are starving? Would your higher moral standard be better served passing out fake meat to the poor? Real meat would fill them up longer though.

Those poor, innocent, defenseless vegetables. They can't even run away let alone fight back.
There they are just growing around, enjoying the sun, when some person comes along and pulls parts of them off or worse, pulls them completely out of their home soil where they had planned to let their offspring sprout and enjoy the glorious golden rays also, silently screaming to be released back to their paradise....

People are omnivores, meant to eat both meat and plants. The teeth prove it. Flat teeth are for eating plants. Sharp teeth are for eating meat. Humans have both. Omnivore.

Strictly speaking, the creatures with the sharper teeth and generally smarter than the ones with flat teeth. Sharp teeth have to hunt to survive. You have to be smart to hunt. Flat teeth eat grass. You don't have to be smart to hunt grass.

Regarding the issue of morality. I don't think lions feel immoral when taking down a water buffalo. Their weapons are superior to the buffalo's defenses. I think it is no different for people. The Bible said man should have dominion over the animals and creatures of the earth. IMO the Bible would not incite immorality. So my conclusion must be that eating meat is natural, not immoral.

Well done Form of The Lord, you are clearly the only one talking sense as I've never heard such nonsense as that spouted by the pro meat eating brigade. Given the choice I'd much rather eat one of them than an animal.

I'm a vegetarian and have been for quite some time, I'd like to think I have a healthy balanced diet.

I don't think eating meat is wrong I just can't support the meat industry on how it treats animals, though I know one thing when I have my own place (I'm 21 currently and traveling) I'll have chickens and god knows I'll be enjoying one of those every now and again!

Eating fake lab meat though no thank you doesn't sound like anything anyone should be eating.

Just my 2 cents.

originally posted by: Heighingtonkate
Given the choice I'd much rather eat one of them than an animal.

That makes two of us.

Nom. Nom. Nom.

Plants are alive as well. How do you reconcile eating them? Get off your high-horse, this is nature, this is the natural order of things...

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
Ok I have been a healthy vegitarian my entire life and am still healthy at the age of 40, older folks in my family have been vegitarians for over 60 years and they are still healthy as ever.

No I am not on suppliments nor have I ever been.
Im not short im 6'1", nor am I skinny at all, if I dont diet and excercise I gain weight just like anyone else.

On to the point of the thread we dont need to eat meat to live a healthy life I am living proof of that.

There are various substitutes to eating meat would any of those stop you from eating meat?

What if they could make it taste the same or even 3d print meat for you would you eat it over the real thing then?

There are plenty of veggie meats that have fooled people into thinking they are real meat, would you eat these over real meat? I have tricked a few friends with vegi meat on multiple occasions just to see thier reactions.

I am guessing that most would still want real meat reguardless of how advanced fake meat is or how real it tastes because its not the real thing.

Is it moral to eat animals when you dont need to?

It always shocked me that people become vegetarian and then eat fake meat. I reverse the question - why eat something that is made to be "like" meat when meat is readily available? The meat has already been killed and prepared - you being a veggie won't change that.

I understand the moral issue to an extent, and respect veggies and don't think it's a bad idea (probably a good one) But man has eaten meat since... FOREVER. It won't change - however good synthetic meat tastes (hopefully better than it sounds - yuck)

As evidenced by the physique and hard breathing of too many Americans, it is apparent that a diet too high in swine and cow carcass is not a healthy diet. Supplement that with cheese and french fries and you have a recipe for disaster.

Sometimes I dread venturing on road trips into parts of America because that is the typical diet, and there is not much variety.

I think those people can benefit from a little more variety.. like putting that beef into soups and stews with tubers and vegetables which may improve their health outlook. It would be an improvement over a bacon cheeseburger.

More fish in the diet would help too, and would add more variety. Unfortunately the western culture (for the most part) is not really a fish eating culture, and its not that easy to buy fresh fish for many. I think there is also a lack of knowledge in the preparation of fish so that it is tasty. Maybe they can take a page (in preparation techniques) from the Japanese who consume a good amount of fish.

---

Meat can also be dangerous in the way it spoils. Almost all food poisoning can be linked to the poor handling of raw flesh. I doubt that this can occur with vegetable products, since fermented vegetables are eaten regularly by many cultures. Meat has a way of incubating all sorts of vile and dangerous bacteria. Anybody who has driven by a slaughter house, knows the horrid smells that can protrude from it. It is produced from the bacteria that feeds on it. I doubt a vegetable slaughter house would smell the same or pose the same dangers. In this way, if it were possible for a culture to live content on a vegetable diet, it would eliminate all of these problems.

For anyone who has any doubts that an entire culture can live on a vegetable diet. When I was in India, in many parts of the country, most of the people live on dahl (lentils) and rice or bread. That is a large percentage of their diet and they eat that most of the time. They supplement that with bull or cow milk. Unfortunately for me, I could not go too long on that diet, not feeling too well, and once in a while I would get a meat dish. I felt like an evil cannibal eating meat amongst the large population of pure vegetarians. The Muslims there on the other hand, ate meat.

a reply to: MrConspiracy

MrConspiracy: "The meat has already been killed and prepared - you being a veggie won't change that."

Less people eating meat = less animals being born, bred and then slaughtered for that purpose.

So many pages of insecure vegitarian hatespeech is rather telling.

Can any of you discuss the OP of the thread which is the immorality of killing animals for food when we dont need to.

Its a moral vs immoral disussion leave the persaonal attacks and ignorant comments out of the conversation period.

This thread isnt about how much you love to eat meat.
This thread isnt about me at all.
This thread isnt about name calling.
This thread isnt about eating plants.
Its about morality or lack of it in our modern society dealing with the slaughter of animals, when we have other ways to survive.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

So many people here giving you an answer that you do not want to hear.

It is NOT immoral to kill animals for food!

Is that simple enough for you.

P

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: FormOfTheLord
So many people here giving you an answer that you do not want to hear.
It is NOT immoral to kill animals for food!
Is that simple enough for you.
P

You should be able to discuss the reasons you believe it isnt immoral to kill animals for food when it isnt necessary because we have other alternatives then shouldnt you. Its simple logic which should be simple enough for you as well.

Please look at the principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour when discussing why you feel justified in killing animals for food when it isnt necessary.

Im listening for your logical reaons why you believe its not immoral if you have any. . .

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Im listening for your logical reaons why you believe its not immoral if you have any. . .

I have them all through this thread. You however, don't want to answer questions on this subject, instead calling it all hate speech and then trying to limit the discussion to a one way narrow street.

Look at all of my posts here, my reasons are spelt out, but you refuse to engage in sensible discussion.

P

ETA. God designed us to eat meat and so we do.

To have an omnivore body doesn't mean you should eat everything but that you can choose.

There was a time I saw eating meat as kind of sexual perversion. Like drinking equine semen or animal milk because of nutrients just plus the pain and murder. What is more immoral?
Then I saw this apocryphal gospel of Thomas:

‘Blessed is the lion which man eats and the lion will become man; and cursed is the man whom the lion eats and the man will become lion.’

...and realized that I may still have no clue why is this place designed like this. Maybe it's not sick but rather perfect and I'm doing a favor to lower beings when I eat them.
Maybe it is a sick hell for sick souls released only after they can't eat others anymore. Plants' life would be higher in evolution then. They are designed as a food. It's crazy. One could find himself judging God by not eating meat.
They say you are more vulnerable to deamon possession when you don't eat meat.
Eating it only because it tastes good is not good enough.

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Im listening for your logical reaons why you believe its not immoral if you have any. . .

I have them all through this thread. You however, don't want to answer questions on this subject, instead calling it all hate speech and then trying to limit the discussion to a one way narrow street.
Look at all of my posts here, my reasons are spelt out, but you refuse to engage in sensible discussion.
P

Haha lol you cant list any reasons just like I thought. . . .
You should be able to discuss the reasons you believe it isnt immoral to kill animals for food if you have any, which you dont seem to be able to list. We kill animals when it isnt necessary because we have other alternatives why do you think that is a morally good decision list reasons?

Please look at the principles known as morality concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour when discussing why you feel justified in killing animals for food when it isnt necessary.
Heres a link for you to look over, as morality has many principals, you should be able to site them in your response if you can that is:
en.wikipedia.org...

Im still listening for your logical reaons why you believe its not immoral if you have any. . .