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The Immorality Of Eating Meat When There Are Vegi Alternatives Do People Care?

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posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 11:36 PM
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a reply to: Krakatoa

Exactly. They are grown in fields as far as the eye can see, planted in neat little rows. Sprayed with and fed numerous chemicals (although not in all cases), and doomed to be killed/harvested, processed and consumed. Repeat next season.




posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 11:42 PM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord

my sister eats vegan. Her health is atrocious. I could list out the vegans I have known with poor health, most of them overweight due to carb glut. Some people just don't process those kinds of foods efficiently.



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 11:43 PM
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originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod

a reply to: akushla99



I wouldn't call meat a drug, come on man that won't fly. It's not a drug, it's a type of food that we as humans have eaten for all of recorded history. Often we've needed the nutrients and it isn't until very recently we've even had the luxury of a cheap and readily available substitute.



Trying to wean humanity off meat by nagging is certainly a major undertaking.



Is this the next front in the war of political correctness?





I know...it's scurrilous in the extreme to call it a drug...nevertheless (and I have met many, many sickly looking vegetarians, who really shouldn't have gone down that path) the protein required is ultimately and adequately obtainable without killing an animal. All those who, across these 20 pages, have failed to address any credible reason (bar 'I love it') to account for their out of proportion replies that have attacked the OP from page 1.



If you love meat - great!

If you hunt for meat in the wild to eat - great!

If you buy your choice cuts in a foam tray covered in plastic or vacuum wrapped in plastic and don't know how it's raised, killed and presented before you in the supermarket aisle, and/or what it takes to finally reach your mouth (productionwise to satisfy)...then, so be it...



Does the massive scale production of meat contribute (like car/truck/factory emissions) to any deleterious effects?



Å99


Your one of the few posters to have actually even attempted to to discuss the issue of morality vs immorality of killing animals for food when we have alternatives, and like myself would like to see some intellectual reasoning rather than attack after attack from page one.

I think of it this way if we consider ourselves savages then we can be that if we consider ourselves godlike we can be like that too. If there is a better way as far as ethics and morals are concerned, would humanity accept such a way? If we ever developed technology similar to Star Trek I wonder if people would still want the real thing and if so why?


Then there is the other version of morality which is the golden rule to do onto others as we would have them do onto us.
If we slaughter animals without thinking of the morality of immorality of it when we have alternatives, how would we feel is aliens slaughtered us for food but didnt really need to?


edit on 31-1-2015 by FormOfTheLord because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 12:06 AM
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a reply to: nenothtu

How big is this spear? I keep getting this image of a guy going after a bear with a spear and can't stop laughing. Yes, I'm aware of having a weird sense of humor. Look at my name on here lol. Anywho, where would you stab it? Would you go for its eyes or try to get a lucky shot in its mouth or through the throat?



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 12:10 AM
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originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: FormOfTheLord









You bring up health yet you would actually put those things in your body? Not me! I care about my health.




Your one of the few posters to have actually even attempted to to discuss the issue of morality vs immorality of killing animals for food when we have alternatives,

So any one who agrees with you is discussing the issue, but anyone who disagrees, no mater how relevant to the matter at hand is off topic?

So I guess my discussion about CAFO's being immoral but eating meat in general is not attempting to discuss the issue? People discussing the whether we really have alternatives or not is not discussing the issue?
food industry as a whole is immoral.
Ok, morality, I think our current food industry as a whole is immoral and partakes of immoral practices. I choose not to eat meat from CAFOS' but I do eat meat, and guess what there are alternatives.

I think that it would be immoral for a parent, if they had children going hungry , yet they had back yard chickens or could hunt, not to feed them meat or eggs.

And for once please answer the question, do you believe people have different dietary needs or not.
edit on 31-1-2015 by calstorm because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 12:35 AM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Here's the thing, morality is a concept. A concept that was created by man to govern their own actions to try and separate them from the rest of the animal kingdom.

We are animals, plain and simple. Therefore, by the rules of morality, is morality itself even moral?



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 12:40 AM
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originally posted by: TokiTheDestroyer
a reply to: FormOfTheLord



Here's the thing, morality is a concept. A concept that was created by man to govern their own actions to try and separate them from the rest of the animal kingdom.



We are animals, plain and simple. Therefore, by the rules of morality, is morality itself even moral?


So according to you there is no such thing as morality or ethics we are all savages?

I would disagree we can be whatever we wish to be, we have a choice to go the savage route or a more Jesus type of Buddha moral route.



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 12:44 AM
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originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

originally posted by: TokiTheDestroyer
a reply to: FormOfTheLord



Here's the thing, morality is a concept. A concept that was created by man to govern their own actions to try and separate them from the rest of the animal kingdom.



We are animals, plain and simple. Therefore, by the rules of morality, is morality itself even moral?


So according to you there is no such thing as morality or ethics we are all savages?

I would disagree we can be whatever we wish to be, we have a choice to go the savage route or a more Jesus type of Buddha moral route.


Nice twist there with the savage thing, but no, there is no such thing as morality. It is a purely man made concept.



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 12:59 AM
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originally posted by: calstorm

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord


originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

a reply to: FormOfTheLord










You bring up health yet you would actually put those things in your body? Not me! I care about my health.




Your one of the few posters to have actually even attempted to to discuss the issue of morality vs immorality of killing animals for food when we have alternatives,



So any one who agrees with you is discussing the issue, but anyone who disagrees, no mater how relevant to the matter at hand is off topic?



So I guess my discussion about CAFO's being immoral but eating meat in general is not attempting to discuss the issue? People discussing the whether we really have alternatives or not is not discussing the issue?

food industry as a whole is immoral.

Ok, morality, I think our current food industry as a whole is immoral and partakes of immoral practices. I choose not to eat meat from CAFOS' but I do eat meat, and guess what there are alternatives.



I think that it would be immoral for a parent, if they had children going hungry , yet they had back yard chickens or could hunt, not to feed them meat or eggs.



And for once please answer the question, do you believe people have different dietary needs or not.


The answer is people are pretty much all the same, of course some have food allergies, but I have never herd of someone who can only eat meat. I met some people that ate rat meat, I met a couple husband and wife that ate raw meat only, but never anyone that had too do it, they were doing it for fun. If you know of any evidence of anyone ever having to live on a diet of meat alone and not being able to eat things like vegis and fruits please do share, sounds ludicrous to me.

How this address morality of alternative foods I dunno?

We live in a society where mass slaughter of animals takes place to feed it, why anyone would feel the need to go out and hunt when there are plenty of already dead animals and plenty of other food coices available is also a question of morals and ethics, it seems a bit excessive to me.

Imagine if aliens had a human slave farm where they slaughtered humans for food, note they didnt need to they just liked doing it, then they went hunting to find some off the farm humans to ray gun blast for the sport of it, wouldnt that be considered excessive killing of humans just for the sport of doing it, of course they would cook the humans up afterward but there are still a virtually endless supply of humans on the farm, so they never really needed to hunt at all. If they didnt have alien currency the alien welfare agency would give them food bucks to purchase human meat or vegitables as needed if they ever needed so no one would ever go hungry.

So yes you can have a farm or hunt but you could also just go to the store as well, of course the animals you raise youself will be as healthy as you make them, or you could just buy organic meat. . . . .
edit on 31-1-2015 by FormOfTheLord because: (no reason given)

edit on 31-1-2015 by FormOfTheLord because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 01:36 AM
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Hi again form!

I'm not going to regurgitate any of the old arguments. It took me a loooonnnngggg time to read through this whole thread.

I have a new argument and I think everyone can get on board. Maybe, maybe not! Let's see.

You are an ethical Vegan against killing animals while moral alternatives exist. Is that a fair assumption? Assuming it is, let me give you my stance. Then my resolution.
I have a wife, 5 kids, and a cat. My wife INSISTS on feeding us a healthy, organic, balanced diet from the 5 major food groups. We have high moral standards and only purchase free range, non caged, animal products when and if we can.
Food is yummy. If it wasn't we wouldn't eat and we would starve and die and we wouldn't understand why. But I digress. It doesn't matter what we consume, food is yummy. I LOVE potato's! I have eaten at the table of a Vegan gladly and thought the food was fine. But that person wouldn't eat at mine. (well he would but food had to be cooked separate) If the people you had tricked into eating fake meat were STRICTLY NO VEGGIES would you have tried to trick them? And if you would, would you be so quick to tell them? I doubt it. I think out in the real world where you actually have to look at people when you speak to them, you probably aren't as hyper about your views. Is that a fair assumption? Assuming it is, how do we solve this moral dilemma?

I feel that you need to change your stance and fight for the REAL reason you want people to be Vegan. You want them to be like you. That's not a bad thing. We ALL want people to be like us. After all, birds of a feather flock together. Morally it is not wrong to eat meat. Anymore than it is to eat plants. It is not the taste of murder, as you so eloquently put it in another thread. Some people just prefer to eat of ALL the food groups available.
I have sensed that you have a MAJOR problem with the WAY animals are treated, and therein lies your fight. Throughout this thread you have had a majority of oppositional commentary on your views but so far I only read one comment from someone saying that they don't care how animals are treated. You should stop trying to get people to be Vegan and instead get them to be more conscientious produce buyers. eg. Free range, Non caged, Organic etc.
I think you will have a much more positive response.

Just to address the Cannibal question. No I would not eat another human for the simple fact that they are the same species as I. I wouldn't feed a cow beef or a deer venison. If aliens came to eat me, obviously I wouldn't like it and I would fight for my life, but I wouldn't find it immoral. I hope that you see I am trying to be positive and not trying to insult you or your views. I just think you are going about it the wrong way.

P.s. I tasted Foie Gras once and I thought it was awesome until I heard how it was made and it made me sick to my stomach. I haven't had since.
edit on 31-1-2015 by Kusinjo because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 01:41 AM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Do you grow your own vegetables or by the Monsanto brand? I eat vegetarian meals sometimes, but most of the time I eat whatever I want, and that includes meat, chicken, fish, seafood and dairy.

What makes eating meat immoral?

Plants Know When They're Being Eaten and They Don't Appreciate it


Vegetarians and vegans pay heed, new research shows plants know when they’re being eaten. And they don’t like it. That plants possess an intelligence is not new knowledge, but according to Modern Farmer, a new study from the University of Missouri shows plants can sense when they are being eaten and send out defense mechanisms to try and stop it from happening. The study was carried out on thale cress or Arabidopsis as it’s known scientifically – that is closely related to broccoli, kale, mustard greens and other siblings of the brassica family and popular for science experiments. It’s commonly used in experiments because it was the first plant to have its genome sequenced, and scientists are intimately familiar with how it works.


Thoughts?

inhabitat.com...



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 01:41 AM
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Animals were put on this Earth by God for us to exploit and eat as much as possible. One whole chicken a day at least is a great life for me. Some roast beef and onions. Ahi Tune and shrimp with some scallop o the side anyone?? For anyone that does not eat animals, I will eat three or fours more to balance the difference. Eat your animals today or God will burden our world with bugs and stuff.



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 01:42 AM
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So we all have the same hereditary tendencies? I don't think so, some people have a genetic predisposition to certain illnesses. People have different needs concerning sunlight exposure based on inherited traits. Why is it that people would also not have different dietary needs based on the geographical regions their ancestors came from and the food availability of that region?

Sorry, but I do not believe in a one size fits all diet. What does it have to do with morality? Well your OP is based on a faulty premiss and these things need to be discussed to be able in order to effectively discuss the morality of meat alternative. It is not a back and white, cut and dry subject. A persons ability to consume the alternatives and the implications that the alternatives have are important aspects to look at when determining said morality or immorality. You wrongly made the assumption that the alternatives have no moral issues themselves, which I believe they do, and you made a blanket assumption that everyone could consume the alternatives, which simply isn't true.



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 01:47 AM
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a reply to: Kusinjo
You and your wife sound very much like my husband and I. I strongly agree with your post, especially



You should stop trying to get people to be Vegan and instead get them to be more conscientious produce buyers. eg. Free range, Non caged, Organic etc. I think you will have a much more positive response.



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 02:11 AM
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originally posted by: Kusinjo
Hi again form!



I'm not going to regurgitate any of the old arguments. It took me a loooonnnngggg time to read through this whole thread.



I have a new argument and I think everyone can get on board. Maybe, maybe not! Let's see.



You are an ethical Vegan against killing animals while moral alternatives exist. Is that a fair assumption? Assuming it is, let me give you my stance. Then my resolution.

I have a wife, 5 kids, and a cat. My wife INSISTS on feeding us a healthy, organic, balanced diet from the 5 major food groups. We have high moral standards and only purchase free range, non caged, animal products when and if we can.

Food is yummy. If it wasn't we wouldn't eat and we would starve and die and we wouldn't understand why. But I digress. It doesn't matter what we consume, food is yummy. I LOVE potato's! I have eaten at the table of a Vegan gladly and thought the food was fine. But that person wouldn't eat at mine. (well he would but food had to be cooked separate) If the people you had tricked into eating fake meat were STRICTLY NO VEGGIES would you have tried to trick them? And if you would, would you be so quick to tell them? I doubt it. I think out in the real world where you actually have to look at people when you speak to them, you probably aren't as hyper about your views. Is that a fair assumption? Assuming it is, how do we solve this moral dilemma?



I feel that you need to change your stance and fight for the REAL reason you want people to be Vegan. You want them to be like you. That's not a bad thing. We ALL want people to be like us. After all, birds of a feather flock together. Morally it is not wrong to eat meat. Anymore than it is to eat plants. It is not the taste of murder, as you so eloquently put it in another thread. Some people just prefer to eat of ALL the food groups available.

I have sensed that you have a MAJOR problem with the WAY animals are treated, and therein lies your fight. Throughout this thread you have had a majority of oppositional commentary on your views but so far I only read one comment from someone saying that they don't care how animals are treated. You should stop trying to get people to be Vegan and instead get them to be more conscientious produce buyers. eg. Free range, Non caged, Organic etc.

I think you will have a much more positive response.



Just to address the Cannibal question. No I would not eat another human for the simple fact that they are the same species as I. I wouldn't feed a cow beef or a deer venison. If aliens came to eat me, obviously I wouldn't like it and I would fight for my life, but I wouldn't find it immoral. I hope that you see I am trying to be positive and not trying to insult you or your views. I just think you are going about it the wrong way.



P.s. I tasted Foie Gras once and I thought it was awesome until I heard how it was made and it made me sick to my stomach. I haven't had since.



Nice post dude, just so you know I am not a vegan nor am I trying to get anyone to change thier eating habits, I have mentioned this multiple times.

I say follow your bliss, do what feels right for you, what you eat and want to eat is a personal thing who am I to tell you to change your ways?

I am just pressing the moral discussion on killing animals for food when there are other alternatives available button.

However people have decided to get offended for questioning thier morality, if its moral or not people should be able to talk about why they think its moral or immoral to kill and eat animals when there are other available food sources.

edit on 31-1-2015 by FormOfTheLord because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 03:20 AM
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originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
I am just pressing the moral discussion on killing animals for food when there are other alternatives available button.


Why eat poor innocent plants when there is meat available?



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 05:03 AM
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People should be aware that changing your diet to anything that is not a "standard balanced diet" is not a decision that should be taken lightly.

You should be aware of your apolipoprotein genotype for example. Some people should be consuming animal fats as it protects them from not only cardiovascular disease and stresses but Alzheimers disease. People of other genotypes should avoid animal fats altogether.

If you are going to make a decision, you owe it to yourself to make an informed one and dare I say, not one based on morality and idealism.

My diet would probably kill some of you. I am apoe 4-4, I am basically a carnivore. On a vegetable/carb based diet I waste away, no matter how much I eat. The body converts the carbs to sugars and they burn through me faster than the world uses oil. I couldn't maintain an acceptable weight, my BMI was under 18 for decades. I switched to a meat diet and fruit diet for a few months, my weight went up and I actually became healthy. I was eating mostly meat, kilograms a week. Now I have stepped back to a more acceptable amount and eat probably 2 servings a day, most days.

My bmi is 21-22, I never get sick and my health has never been better.

OP, before you go and pass judgment on other people as to whether they are "morally right" or not you may wish to consider what choices they have available to them. I eat what I have to eat to survive and be healthy. If there was an alternative, I may well take it. But so far there isn't.
edit on 31/1/2015 by LilFox because: Added personal experience/s



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 06:36 AM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord

It irritates me when some one such as yourself puts on airs and takes up a superior and sanctimonious holier than thou attitude just because you seem to think that your way is best without even once considering others will basically take the other stance. As far as I am concerned, Soy, Tofu and many other alternative protein sources will never touch my plate again.

I've tried veggie meals in order to be polite to my vegan friends and sister and frankly, I found that much of it tasted quite nasty or bland. As for meat grown from a culture, every review I've read says it tastes nasty. But you automatically discount that.

You attack others for believing other than you and then get annoyed when they attack back and you use the tired Alinsky argument of trying to discredit others by saying they are off topic? That's too funny just by itself.

I will always fight the enemy that I perceive to be leading mankind down the wrong path. Be they militant vegans, religious fundamentalists, corrupt government, narcissists, etc, etc.

OK, cool, your a Vegan, I don't care and if you would have kept it to yourself I bet we may even get along. But I find your militant views on this matter immoral, unethical and dangerous to others.



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 07:02 AM
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Haven't read the entire thread, but of course, if you know it's immoral to eat corpses then it's immoral. Before I quit meat long ago I didn't give it a second thought. Now I know.

Aside from me, you, and Junior over there, the human race has to get off the corpse diet as soon as possible. I'd look favorably on the New World Order if it got around to this, but nope, TPTB still do not fight meat-eating with all they've got. The result? The ocean (it's one ocean), lakes, and rivers are being depopulated of fish and other life, forests are still being cut down to make way for meat-farming and to create food to feed cows and pigs, and the desertification of the planet goes forward inch by inch (actually acre by acre) because people think it's normal to put a corpse in their mouth and actually bite down on it. The human race is immature on this issue, and the other lifeforms on the planet pay for it.

To the biblically religious amongst us, did you know God directed people to eat vegan? Where in the bible? It's on the first page! The first thing God said to man! Ole Genesis 1:29, which the New World Order should read and disseminate daily.



posted on Jan, 31 2015 @ 07:23 AM
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Why do meat eaters in this thread feel so attacked? This whole forum is ridden with ethical discussions, 'is this moral, is that moral', it's just another opinion. Personally thinking an act is immoral or not doing something because it feels immoral to your personal values doesn't necessarily imply that you harshly judge individuals for their choices, and besides, one can say ''I think that's an immoral act'' without saying ''you're a bad/immoral person without ethics''. Usually that's not really a problem and many moralistic discussions are being held without such an amount of butthurtedness. It's as if people feel attacked by you when you only said you're vegetarian/vegan and for what reasons.

Some of the replies here are hostile without any reason to justify that. Think of it this way: some of us choose not to eat meat, not because we are so judgemental or because we want to ruin your meal, but because for whatever reason we ethically prefer not to eat it anymore. Just like everyone vegetarians act as well as they can. A different opinion doesn't mean the person is bad or immoral, it just means that the equation of ''what is the best thing to do in the best of my knowledge'' ends up differently than someone else's.

And yes, I do hope people start eating less meat. I still believe there's no point in factory farming on this ridiculous, out of control scale. There's no need for a hamburger to be a 1$ snack, that's a dead animal that has suffered a miserable life. To me at least that's out of balance, not worth it, and actually perhaps its own kind of madness.



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