The Immorality Of Eating Meat When There Are Vegi Alternatives Do People Care?

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I made a very tasteful response with no name calling a long way back in this thread. You did not address it or the question I asked. It would seem that you may be ignoring answers you don't want to hear or missed my response.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Seems like you are defining/equating right and wrong in terms of necessary and unnecessary.

Do you apply that same standard to everything in your life? Is debating the issue online where you are squandering electricity really necessary?

Maybe morality isn't as simple as necessity and non necessity.

It would be interested to hear the "conversations" of other omnivores and carnivores on the planet.

In a world where death is sustenance and life, it seems absurd to discuss the morality of behaving in a way that your genus has spent tens of thosuands of years evolving into.

Pythagoras mused about this quite a bit, as have many of the other great minds throughout history.

I spent a majority of my life not feeling like i fit in with humanity. I know many others feel this way, and that is is common. THe way I learned to cope with this is to willfully accept that I am human, and that I have to learn how to "human" to make life easier for me. Thus, I laugh at jokes that are not funny. I smile at people I do not like. I do the things that humans do.

After a few years of this, practicing at it and getting better, it occurs to me: humans have not been feral for millenia. If ever. So it obviously would do no good to try to chase down prey and kill it with a bit to the throat. Humans are not predatory animals. At least, not feral humans. Humans are weak, slow, and delicate in comparison to the majority of the wild (although we could kill a sloth ina foot race)

I have mentioned many times in the past that I struggle with my own carnivorous leanings philosophically. But i hunt, too. Because hunting is what humans do.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Humans have one of the widest zones of distribution of any terrestrial species on the planet and have for a while. Not as fragile as you seem to think. Early humans were endurance and ambush hunters.

a reply to: ManBehindTheMask

Being Vegan doesnt give anyone any moral high ground for anything....its a food choice, not transcendence, nor does it make you on par with the Dali Lama or any other person whose actually done actual things that have a bearing on morality

What is morality for you I wonder?

It's not always just a food choice. For many vegans and vegetarians, this is about removing the abuse and not torturing animals. It's not just about killing animals, or even eating them

Not everyone is going to become a vegetarian. Why be cruel when there are ways to avoid it?

This is about how animals are treated their entire lives up until the moment they're killed. For many of these animals (if not most) death is the nicest thing that will ever happen to them

Why do people who are simply working for the humane treatment of animals make you so angry?

a reply to: Ksihkehe

by "fragile" i am talking about physical capabilities when compared to other animals of a similar dimension. A chimp can rip our arms off and beat us with them.

The playing field is leveled by our intellect, insight, and abstract thought capabilities. Which really is fascinating, when you ask what our ancestors did before the intellect was developed. Were we stronger and more robust (a la neandertal)? The physical fragility of humanity, IMO, is a piece of the puzzle.

Although i am drifting off topic.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

When you insinuate the normal and accepted human behavior is immoral, it tends to drive a little bit of anger.

Eating meat is not immoral.

And the attraction of eating meat is not about the taste; otherwise it would be easy to create synthetic meat that tastes exactly the same. But meat eaters would reject it claiming it is not satisfying. There is a reason for that.

Herbivores or creatures that eat a plant-based diet are not called predators. Creatures that eat meat are. Why is that? Yes of course plants are life forms as are animals and humans are but their nervous systems are not developed in the same way. Yes they have responses. They are living creatures, so of course they respond to having one of their leaves cut off or being attacked by a plague of locusts, that is why they have evolved particular defence mechanisms such as thorns, stings or chemical residues which are designed to be unpleasant to another creature’s taste.

The reason that people defend their desire for eating meat is due to the past history of the human beast itself. Humans are connected to their past by a river of bloodshed - a past of predation. Humanity’s past is a past of predating on other animals and upon each other – literally, as with the example of the cannibalism practiced by Maoris and South Pacific Islanders and figuratively by subjugation, enslavement, and murder of fellow humans through warfare.

Hunting animals required scheming, aggression and cunning and a pack mentality. Eating plants did not.

Scheming, aggression and cunning enabled humans to successfully kill animals, beginning with small birds and mammals progressing to being able to ambush and kill larger and larger animals such as elephants. This had remarked effects on their developing psychologies. One notable effect was that the same strategies that were employed to be able to hunt, ambush and kill large animals could also be modified to hunt, ambush and kill other human beings – those that belonged to competing family groups or tribes.

Eating a sole diet of plant-based foods would not have accomplished this I don’t think.

A meatless diet is unsatisfying for the majority of people because meat has an almost sacred connotation for them. It is traditionally the food of the winner. Killing animals, especially mammals, provides some sort of exhilaration in the brain. Is it the result of chemicals in the meat produced by the animal’s hormones when it is running and fighting for its life? I suspect that is so. People say never run from a vicious dog because it will stimulate their killer instinct.

The taste of the flesh of the animal that lost drives carnivores into a bloodlust-crazed euphoria. “I am alive – YOU are dead!” Me and mine prosper – yours do not! -The survival of the fittest.

This psychological aspect has defined human civilizations up to now. Look at your own nation – how much GNP is spent on weapons of mass destruction and the gradual shaping of boys into competitive dumbed down killing machines.

One response so far has been something to the effect of: “It’s a dog eat dog world. If the animal could, it would eat me. So it is only fair I do what they would only do themselves”

Yes, but the difference is other carnivorous animals driven by their predatory instincts are not able to destroy their home planet as humans can. Other animals are not able to modify or subjugate their primitive instincts.

Eating meat creates a psychological connection back to a time of barbarism on the African plains – an awful bloody fight for survival. Those circumstances no longer exist. But the ritual still exists. Flesh for fantasy.

The ritual of eating the slaughtered beast recreates the drama of ancient times. The digestion of it produces a sleepy reverie – that which is seen on the faces of a pride of lions after their kill. It is a drug-like euphoria, producing a sleepy false sense of satisfaction and security. The world may be on the edge of extinction but boy, you can prise that greasy bacon rind from my cold dead paws.

Evolution of humanity at some stage involves overcoming the kill or be killed predatory instinct. That is humanity's final challenge. If we don’t find a way to graduate to that next level then humanity reaches extinction level.

Until then, I have just two words for all you Jonus brothers out there: “PREDATOR DRONES!”

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Humans evolve - in their thinking as much as anything else

Factory farming didn't used to be a thing

I'll risk pissing people off if it at least gets people thinking

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: FormOfTheLord



Seems like you are defining/equating right and wrong in terms of necessary and unnecessary.



Do you apply that same standard to everything in your life? Is debating the issue online where you are squandering electricity really necessary?



Maybe morality isn't as simple as necessity and non necessity.

What I do in my life and talking about eletricity has zero to do with the OP.
Can you answer to morality and immorality of killing animals when it isnt the least bit necessary.

Can you state moral reasons of right and wrong to back your stance on meat eating?
Morality deals with various principlas of ethics and is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good or right and those that are bad, evil or wrong.

An example of ethical philosophy is the Golden Rule which states that, "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself." Shouldnt this apply to our treatment animals as well especially when it isnt necessary to kill them for our survival.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Yeah, i am not a fan of corporate farming/ranching. For all the obvious reasons.

But in the context of your question to MBTM....the tenor of the OP is that eating meat is immoral because there are a whole slew of chemical, er....vegan alternatives. That seems to be what agitates people: being told that their behavior is immoral.

That said....if we can improve the quality of life for any creature, be they food or not, I am all for it

ETA: that avatar you are rocking is very nice. My wife is a huge fan of sunflowers. And I obviously have an affinity for our simian cousins.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I said clearly

I have them all through this thread. You however, don't want to answer questions on this subject, instead calling it all hate speech and then trying to limit the discussion to a one way narrow street. Look at all of my posts here, my reasons are spelt out, but you refuse to engage in sensible discussion.

You then replied with a rendition of Dr. Evil's Laughing scene and said,

Haha lol you cant list any reasons just like I thought. . . .

Then you repeated yet again for the umpteenth time in this thread,

Im still listening for your logical reaons why you believe its not immoral if you have any. . .

And that shows quite clearly that you do not want to engage in any serious discussion.

To comment further, I would cross the T&C boundaries on decorum.

Perhaps you could learn how to discuss and debate in an adult like fashion. Then come back and I would love to debate the serious questions you raise.

P

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I don't know why you keep posting that video everywhere. It is in your OP isn't that enough for one thread?



Maybe you should define what you base your morality off of because the post I replied to you about had you equating moral and immoral with necessary and unnecessary. If you continually move the goalposts on how morality is defined you will find very few will ever agree with you on what is moral.

a reply to: Grimpachi

I just want his definition of an animal to start with.

Mammals, Birds, Fish, Reptiles, Insects, Arachnids, Crustacean ...

Where do you draw the magical line? Wherever it is drawn, why there?

P

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
It would be interested to hear the "conversations" of other omnivores and carnivores on the planet.
In a world where death is sustenance and life, it seems absurd to discuss the morality of behaving in a way that your genus has spent tens of thosuands of years evolving into.

Pythagoras mused about this quite a bit, as have many of the other great minds throughout history.

I spent a majority of my life not feeling like i fit in with humanity. I know many others feel this way, and that is is common. THe way I learned to cope with this is to willfully accept that I am human, and that I have to learn how to "human" to make life easier for me. Thus, I laugh at jokes that are not funny. I smile at people I do not like. I do the things that humans do.
After a few years of this, practicing at it and getting better, it occurs to me: humans have not been feral for millenia. If ever. So it obviously would do no good to try to chase down prey and kill it with a bit to the throat. Humans are not predatory animals. At least, not feral humans. Humans are weak, slow, and delicate in comparison to the majority of the wild (although we could kill a sloth ina foot race)
I have mentioned many times in the past that I struggle with my own carnivorous leanings philosophically. But i hunt, too. Because hunting is what humans do.

Looking at the past is one thing back when humans were more savage they had to hunt because they didnt know how to farm, however now that our modern society can create pretty much anything we want I think the whole hunting need for meat morality goes out the door.

Please address the moral or immoral reasons for killing animals in our modern age where we dont need to at all if there are any.

Its not addressing the moral good and bad, right and wrong, of killing animals for food when we have various alternatives.
We are still evolving, and 3d printed meat may be the next big thing, however I doubt many will want to eat it due to thier own bias and lack of morals when it comes to an animals right to life.


Yes your according to many even your dog has a right to life, and if someone came along and killed it for food you would be like dude your a savage, you dont need to kill my dog for food, go to the store and buy some mac and cheese.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

i have spent several posts pointing out that there are NOT alternatives. You address that first, then i'll take another turn.

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

Yes your according to many even your dog has a right to life, and if someone came along and killed it for food you would be like dude your a savage, you dont need to kill my dog for food, go to the store and buy some mac and cheese.

Do you realize that buying food isn't something that can always be easily done by people? When i managed a call center in Wyoming, we had several employees that would take 2 weeks to go hunting. IT was how they could afford to eat. Even the lady who was blind would go with her family. She had a role, too.

Not everyone lives in a city, and has access to funding. You should travel to the frontier, see what its like to live in the wild a little bit.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: FormOfTheLord



I don't know why you keep posting that video everywhere. It is in your OP isn't that enough for one thread?


Maybe you should define what you base your morality off of because the post I replied to you about had you equating moral and immoral with necessary and unnecessary. If you continually move the goalposts on how morality is defined you will find very few will ever agree with you on what is moral.

The moral questions stated in the video aid in keeping the topic focused on moraliy of right and wrong and not on me. No one is moving the goal posts its been a I love eat so its moral conversation from most, and that has zero to do with an intelligent discussion. Address the issue of morality of killing animals for food when there is no need, that is the only topic on this thread that needs discussing. List some reasons and draw them from the classical principals based on morality in your answers if you can.

Im listening. . . .

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
Address the issue of morality of killing animals for food when there is no need,

How about you address the morality of killing plants for food when there in no need.... that is why we have tasty meat!

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I did that in my first post by asserting that your premise is flawed. You have not addressed it. Eating vegetarian results in animal deaths too. If you want the premise to be "would it be immoral to kill animals if a magic method to produce alternatives existed?" then I could answer yes. No such situation exists. Loss of habitat to agriculture has eliminated countless generations of animals.