My thoughts on the CIA Torture "revelations"

a reply to: Grovit


My thanks is not so much directed at *you* per se, but moreso at the idea that you spoke your mind. You spoke your mind rather than remaining quiet, knowing most "decent people" wouldn't agree with you.

What is the old saying, the stake that stands out gets hammered down?

That takes cajones, my friend.

I do realize you are not necessarily pro torture. Neither am I. I simply see it as an unfortunate tool that at times is a necessity. Just as you said, why is torture a big no-no, yet carpet bombing, drone strikes, and bunker-busters are acceptable?

In my humble opinion, there is no difference.

- NF

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

In a debate of opinions, you cannot "win". Neither can I.

I'm afraid your "point" doesn't "stand".4


-NF

a reply to: seeker1963

Hmmm. Yes, there are "alternative" methods such as drugs. However, what is truly the difference (besides violence either physical or psychological in use) between use of mind altering drugs (which Sodium Pentathol is a mind altering drug) or "torture" in the form of physical and or psychological alternatives?

Aren't mind altering drugs something as invasive as say, sexual assault? Something that would leave you feeling just as violated?

As for wishing anything, no, I do not wish that anyone ever again suffers from torture via interrogation. I truly wish that no more innocent lives are lost. But, it could be said, that any means which ends a conflict sooner than later is a good thing. Further innocent lives will be saved through such methods. Hell, the US Gov't used atomic weapons as a means to show the japanese that we meant business and a way of physically and mentally doing what it takes to end the war and the fighting as soon as possible. Millions of lives were lost in the few moments it took to drop bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Although I find all of this to be repulsive, which number of deaths would you chose in a means of ending the atrocities sooner ?



- NF

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

Yepp, vaping is fun I am actually in the process of creating my own premium lines of juice! I've got unique flavors and ideas. Honestly, it's terribly fun for me, and it's much like when I bartended ages ago and had the opportunity to create new concoctions in the name of a decent cocktail.

And yes, I'm a dripper, I use a box-mod, sub-ohm build with 22 gauge G-plat, and love it...my daughter likes to request what flavor I'm going to vape next as she loves the different scents!!!

So, back to the point.

I am unfortunately jaded. Whereas I agree, I'd love to see a day where such barbarism (and yes, it is barbaric in my eyes, merely unavoidable I am sad to say), I am not at all convinced that our species is elevated beyond a civilization built on a corner stone of atrocities. That being said, I have precious little to no faith in our species.

I took stock of my own instincts long ago. It has taken decades to learn to control them. But, I also realize that there is a time to fight.

And if you must fight, do what it takes to end it as soon as possible.



-NF

a reply to: nullafides

While I agree with your points wholeheartedly, Nagasaki and Hiroshima loses were in the thousands, not millions.

In the days before the bombing, US forces dropped leaflets all over the two cities warning citizens that a bombing was imminent and to flee the city. Thought the leaflets were considered largely ineffective, many citizen DID flee. Couple that with the fact that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mid-sized cities at the time of the bombings, the total death toll was just over 100,000 if I'm remembering my history correctly.

Still a horrific number, don't get me wrong. But I just wanted to clarify.

On the issue of torture---I fully support it with a few small provisions:
1. That it first be tested on members of Congress, the Supreme Court and the Executive Branch.
2. That the testing be televised after the networks are offered the chance to bid on broadcasting the events.

I can think of other provisions that I might request but it strikes me that if these provisions were met we just might not even need to go forward ....if torture is such a truth-producing behavior, let's get busy with the lying scumbags in government. And put it on TV for the whole world to see. Let the manufacturers of torture instruments explain to us in 30-60 minute segments about how this type of behavior makes us a far, far better society. (Of course, we'll have to figure out the legalese statements to include at the end of the programs, like "these methods may cause discomfort and death.")

PS. When we get through the three branches of government and their families, we can start on the quasi-governmental agencies like the Federal Reserve.
WE NEED THE TRUTH AND WE NEED IT NOW and if it takes ramming a broomstick up somebody's behind, then let the games begin---right here at home and in the public view beginning with the leaders of the Demopublican party, the Black Robed Tribe and the Executive Branch.

See, we've really not moved on from the witch trials have we?

a reply to: BobAthome

not any closer to grasping it
so, it ok to kill the body but not the spirit/mind?
yeah, that makes sense[/rolling my eyes]

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck


Please don't get me wrong. I am not one to pound my enflamed chest in the righteous glory of nationalism. I don't think you could point a stick at any one nation, group, or religion (most likely with the caveat of the buddhists) that is truly innocent in these matters.

I do smile whenever I see a Canadian pointing the foibles of Americans. It seems to be as much of a national past time of the citizens of the UK and drinking


-NF

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

In the days before the bombing, US forces dropped leaflets all over the two cities warning citizens that a bombing was imminent and to flee the city. Thought the leaflets were considered largely ineffective, many citizen DID flee. .

awesome

and in gitmo they say 'tell me what i want to know or this will happen'
kinda the same thing.

a reply to: recapitulated

You got my point.

I spoke with a marine since earlier today regarding his opinion on the topic. I wasn't the slightest bit surprised to see that their viewpoint was on par with my own. One Marine, one viewpoint. Not representative of all viewpoints from veterans, but a viewpoint from someone who has proverbially stood on that wall, and can truthfully speak to the situation. One who's opinion I trust.


- NF

a reply to: nullafides

Cool! I use a Sigelei 100W Box mod, and right now I'm vaping a coil at .3 ohms with 24 gauge Kanthal. I use a dripper right now, but I waiting for a Lemo RTA tank to come in. All the benefits of a tank with the nice, airy draws from drippers.

I wanna get a mod with the new DNA40 chipset. If you use those with Nickel wire you can actually control the wire TEMPURATURE. Which means no more dry hits! I saw a guy dry-fire his mod with the cotton IN the coil, and it didn't even discolor. I was blown away.

On topic:

I know I still have a lot of growing to do as a human. I'm what some would consider still quite young, though I feel old as heck. I want to believe we can rise above the barbarism and inhumanity, I know it's a childish belief to hang onto, but I still have faith that humanity has the potential to be truly peaceful one day.

originally posted by: nullafides

My thanks is not so much directed at *you* per se, but moreso at the idea that you spoke your mind. You spoke your mind rather than remaining quiet, knowing most "decent people" wouldn't agree with you.
people should always speak their mind. i know i do

That takes cajones, my friend.
maybe. or just not caring what people think

I do realize you are not necessarily pro torture. Neither am I. I simply see it as an unfortunate tool that at times is a necessity. Just as you said, why is torture a big no-no, yet carpet bombing, drone strikes, and bunker-busters are acceptable?

yeah, it just dont make sense to me..
none o it does he rules of war and rules of engagement. makes no sense to me.

i guess it is about civilized killing?? hell i dont know

im also not positive about these rules but something like this scenario

youre in the thick of it. bullets spraying everywhere. youre tying to kill the man across from you. but when that man lays down his weapon and gives up youre supposed to stop trying to kill him and take him prisoner?
like the thousand bullets he just fired at your head never happened.


and railgun, check out the provari line

provari3.com...
those are nice rigs

a reply to: jlafleur02


Americans have the moral high ground?

That is a convenient belief. And one based off of perspective. I'm not saying the Nazi's or the Taliban are right in their convictions. Simply that to believe we are standing on the pinnacle of moral high ground is a myopic one.


- NF

originally posted by: amicktd
a reply to: [post=18754404]JohnnyCanuck

What you do in your country has nothing to do with mine so I'm failing to see your point! Good on ya though, but yea I'll boast online as you say!

The point is that I live in a democracy as well. There are things that can be done from the inside. I'm sure the grass roots of the party structure works in a similar manner in the good ol' US of A.

All that being said, my Conservative member of parliament is going to hear from me for an explanation of Canada's apparent role in this monumental cock-up.

We truly do live in a totally artificial culture.

A Few Good Men is a movie. Colonel Jessup is a fictional character. His speech was written in the Hollywood hills.

I am reminded of GW Bush watching the show "24" to see how the war on terror was going.

Some folks are completely out of touch with reality.

a reply to: XP100


An emotional, but good point to posit.

Are the points you are making truly that different from the use of nuclear weapons? Depleted uranium coated ammunition, which has an almost everlasting effect on generations to come? Land-mines left behind from a forgotten act of aggression?

It boils down, in my opinion, to the needs of the few versus the needs of the many.

A difficult choice, but one that sometimes needs to be made.



- NF

a reply to: Ceeker63

A question. Are we not on the same page, or are you thinking I was somehow against the methods used?


-NF

a reply to: nullafides


Yes and to many, the way that some are stepping and fetching about moral high ground over this issues is seen for the dope show that it is. Rather a puking event really. Looks disgusting. Political and self aggrandizing.

Sweet Madam Blue gaze in the looking glass your not a child anymore.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

Albeit I was not quoting scripture and verse, when you look at the future impact of the detonation of atomic weaponry against a society, is it all that improbably that millions of lives were not lost and or impacted by the actions of the US Military?

Loss of life is deplorable. Personally, I would never initiate a fight unless it was 100% necessary. I am not a violent person by any means.

That being said, were I to initiate or even participate in a fight, I would fight with the intention to be on the side that won. I would do it for my family and loved ones.


In my point of view, there is never an option off of the table in these circumstances.


- NF

-NF

a reply to: ScientificRailgun



We should probably continue the vaping discussion offline, or even start a new thread for it


Illusions are painfully shattered when discovery starts.

With regards to the potentials of humanity, there is no impossibility or improbability. But as they say, hope for the best and prepare for the worst.


- NF