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My thoughts on the CIA Torture "revelations"

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posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 01:11 PM
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originally posted by: seeker1963
a reply to: nullafides



The "War on Terror" has done nothing more than create more terrorists!


that is as unsubstantiated statement as "torture does not extract any useful information"




posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 01:32 PM
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originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

You say I can't handle the truth? I say you don't know the truth.


The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

I believe I know what the truth isn't - that somehow the Big Bad USA needs to torture people on the other side of the world -or anywhere else- to somehow make us all safer. That's a wall we don't need anybody on. If you're on it and think it's for my benefit, get down off it.

Start operating more and more like a South American drug cartel and see how much support that gets.

(This post isn't directed towards ScientificRaligun, just using the quoted comment as segue).


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 01:43 PM
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a reply to: yeahright

the drug cartel is a criminal organization,
last time i checked reality.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 01:58 PM
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a reply to: recapitulated

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Good, I'm glad the analogy wasn't lost on you.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:02 PM
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a reply to: yeahright
sarcasm is appreciated.
irrational to compare drug cartel to US army.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:05 PM
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a reply to: recapitulated
Is it really?

Lately, the US military has acted on the whims and desires of corporations.

A drug cartel is a corporation. (albeit an illegal one)

Soldiers fight for the cartels, which are corporations.
Our soldiers fight for politicians bought body and soul by corporations,

So I don't see much of a distinction beyond budget.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:07 PM
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a reply to: ScientificRailgun

good for you.

i see the distinction clearly



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:10 PM
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a reply to: ScientificRailgun

You forgot to add in there that the voters hire the politicians.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:11 PM
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a reply to: yeahright

Locations of tunnels of the North Vietnamese, that were able to hide in them, and decimate troops on patrols, either laying traps for them, coming at them from all sides, or from behind rather than being spotted by a point man.

Just saying. In the short run, the info prob saved a lot of lives.
However, overall I agree that the negatives incurred in the long run, may outweigh the outcome then.

It is a difficult question, indeed, OP, and an important one.

The bigger question is why are we at war, and is that the sane approach at all, to begin with. Why again, were we in Viet Nam, in other words. And indeed, why are we in Iraq?



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:11 PM
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originally posted by: nullafides



I feel that Jack Nicholson's idea here is correct, but not in regards to the PFC Santiago the movie focuses on.

How in the world do people actually expect information to be gained? What, are we supposed to be English LEO's who have to quote Monty Python by saying "STOP, or I'll say STOP again!!!!" ?

Pure pain and torture will not work at the same levels, or for the same duration, for every potential source of information. This is where I feel the CIA has gone wrong. They failed to assess the level of what would work vs what was beyond the point of being effective.

I worked with a man who served in Vietnam as an intelligence specialist. He said that when he strongly suspected that four or fewer people knew something, but they suspected one in particular, they'd gather all four of them up. They load them onto a huey, and take off to about 400 feet. Starting with the least likely to know or speak the truth, they'd clearly state their question. If they didn't answer, out the door. The man I worked with said that by the time they got to the one they felt strongest about knowing the truth, that person would always talk. And that over 90% of the time, spill the truth.

Is this violent? Yes. Is this horrible? Yes. War is not pretty. Neither is gathering information from people as desperate as to strap bombs to themselves and take as many lives as they could, not to mention their own. These are the same types of people who would strap the bomb to a child.

I know that almost everyone here will cry out about how peace is the way. Humanity shouldn't stoop to such lows. Torture is wrong.


Sorry, if it's time for war, chivalry and knighthood is antiquated. How can you adhere to rules that others will not?


Flame on.


-NF


Your citing the effectiveness of torture in a war we lost? see my point. A main front was winning the hearts and minds of the population. This doesn't help. As Americans we are the moral high ground. We don't act like the Taliban or Nazi's. We don't torture what ever the cost. If we do then I give up and don't want to be associated with it. Unfortunately we are represented by a bunch of crap dicks.
edit on 10-12-2014 by jlafleur02 because: edit



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:17 PM
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My take is that torture is inevitable. Do I think its effective? Most likely, because if not why would it be used. I believe torture is a necessary tool at times. ISIS is cutting heads off of reporters. Do I feel sorry for them when they get beaten to within an inch of their life...Hell No! Do what you gotta do to get rid of the scum.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:19 PM
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a reply to: amicktd

yeah, in the end some useful info must come out or else torture wouldnt be happening



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:23 PM
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a reply to: Grovit

Yea I see that most people's argument is that they will tell you anything to get them to stop. The flaw to that is I'm sure the info is verified. I highly doubt the first time the say something they just cut the ropes and tell them they are free to go.
edit on 10-12-2014 by amicktd because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:26 PM
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originally posted by: recapitulated
i see the distinction clearly


The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

As do I, for now. But it's not trending in the right direction.

I'm not talking specifically about our military. It's not the military that's the issue IMO. It's the politicians and the bureaucrats who make the calls and hire the 'contractors' to do the dirtiest work. The black bag, off the books stuff like these latest CIA revelations are bringing to light.

We give parades and ceremonies to our military, and rightfully so. These covert, black ops illegal and immoral acts are the ones I have a problem with. Who vets that? If they're so proud of it and it's so goddamn necessary, why is it hidden? Make a case for it and make it policy, if it's that critical.

You hide things like that from the light of day because everyone knows they're WRONG.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:27 PM
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a reply to: amicktd


You forgot to add in there that the voters hire the politicians.


That may have been the case in the past, but I really don't see that as being true anymore. Politicians are bought and paid for now. The votes we cast on elections days are only to decide which face tells us what the corporations want them to say.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:29 PM
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originally posted by: nullafides
a reply to: yeahright


If you fight, or more correctly, HAVE to fight, you need to fight to win. Do what it takes.


-NF


So, you are saying there are no limits to what we should do to win? Mustard Gas, Biological Weapons, Genocide, all on the table in your view?



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:32 PM
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a reply to: amicktd

ive been thinking about it too.

again, we hear about the fear it puts into them and the mental fatigue.
im thinking if theyre so damn afraid theyre probably going to tell the truth if they think the truth will make it stop.
maybe not. i dont have any evidence of this but is seems logical to me



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:46 PM
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originally posted by: tetra50


Just saying. In the short run, the info prob saved a lot of lives.



It probably also cost a lot of lives, or don't the North Vietnamese count?



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:46 PM
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originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: amicktd


You forgot to add in there that the voters hire the politicians.


That may have been the case in the past, but I really don't see that as being true anymore. Politicians are bought and paid for now. The votes we cast on elections days are only to decide which face tells us what the corporations want them to say.


How is that any different from what I stated?
edit on 10-12-2014 by amicktd because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 02:47 PM
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a reply to: amicktd

I apologize if I misinterpreted your post, I thought that you were implying that because we vote for politicians, we're culpable in the crimes they commit.



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