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My thoughts on the CIA Torture "revelations"

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posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:00 PM
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I feel that Jack Nicholson's idea here is correct, but not in regards to the PFC Santiago the movie focuses on.

How in the world do people actually expect information to be gained? What, are we supposed to be English LEO's who have to quote Monty Python by saying "STOP, or I'll say STOP again!!!!" ?

Pure pain and torture will not work at the same levels, or for the same duration, for every potential source of information. This is where I feel the CIA has gone wrong. They failed to assess the level of what would work vs what was beyond the point of being effective.

I worked with a man who served in Vietnam as an intelligence specialist. He said that when he strongly suspected that four or fewer people knew something, but they suspected one in particular, they'd gather all four of them up. They load them onto a huey, and take off to about 400 feet. Starting with the least likely to know or speak the truth, they'd clearly state their question. If they didn't answer, out the door. The man I worked with said that by the time they got to the one they felt strongest about knowing the truth, that person would always talk. And that over 90% of the time, spill the truth.

Is this violent? Yes. Is this horrible? Yes. War is not pretty. Neither is gathering information from people as desperate as to strap bombs to themselves and take as many lives as they could, not to mention their own. These are the same types of people who would strap the bomb to a child.

I know that almost everyone here will cry out about how peace is the way. Humanity shouldn't stoop to such lows. Torture is wrong.


Sorry, if it's time for war, chivalry and knighthood is antiquated. How can you adhere to rules that others will not?


Flame on.


-NF



+6 more 
posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:07 PM
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a reply to: nullafides

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

You don't fight evil by bringing yourself down to their level. It's a barbaric, pointless way to go. For every possible potential benefit, you reap a bucket of negatives.

All those guys tossed out of however many Hueys. What did we get out of that, again?


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:09 PM
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It's wonderful that antiquated stances such as this are becoming less and less common.

Torture is a terrible interrogation technique, and rarely, if ever provides useful intelligence. There are dozens, if not hundreds of different ways to gather intelligence rather than torture. In today's world of advanced surveillance, wire tapping, cyber exploits, undercover ops, and the myriad other ways that people can gather information, Torture has become the vestigial organ of intelligence gathering techniques and should be discarded.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:11 PM
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a reply to: yeahright

"You don't fight evil by bringing yourself down to their level".


War.

If you fight, or more correctly, HAVE to fight, you need to fight to win. Do what it takes.

I apologize for not being able to agree, and I respect your opinion. I just cannot help but feel it is a naive opinion. I mean no disrespect with that, please do not take it that way.


-NF



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:12 PM
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Tell is what we need to know or we'll sexually abuse your anus...




Is that the world we should live in?




Why not give the police the same rules so they can sexually abuse suspects for information.



Where does it end?



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:14 PM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

With the VICTOR who'll tell us what happened.
edit on 10-12-2014 by cavtrooper7 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:16 PM
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I think the only reason for the CIA investigation was at the behest of Obama

mostly because Muslims were being harshly interrogated...
the WH love-fest with Muslims/Islam/Muslim Brotherhood continues to transform the USA

((the poor, unfortunate captives of ISIS get beheaded
but the Muslims in Gitmo get a suppository)) ....whoa what an outrage, beheading is so much more ethical
edit on th31141823565110202014 by St Udio because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:18 PM
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a reply to: ScientificRailgun

My question to you is, how do you know it is not effective?

To be honest, I think this was a viral thought spread after Guantanamo was exposed.


Yet again, War.

Not pretty, not polite, not bound to rules. It's a rather disgusting and messy aspect of being the animal known as human. Yes, animal. Everyone wants to believe that humans are some sort of angelic being.

We have the capacity to be this, but, we are mired in hubris to believe we are not also animals with animal instincts as well

Now, I know the counter to this will be "But we're better than that! We can think! We can negotiate! We can chose peace!"


I'll give quarter when it is worthwhile. I'll show mercy when it is called for. But IMHO, only a fool thinks these things will always keep you alive. Someone who has had the luxury of not having to do the things necessary to stay alive. Someone who has never looked death in the face.


I'm truly curious as to what the service members here think? I don't anticipate that all will agree.

I am curious none the less.


-NF



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:20 PM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

And here is where someone takes it to the polar opposite of the scenario.

We're talking about interrogation during wartime. We're talking about survival.



I anticipated your response.



- NF



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:21 PM
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a reply to: nullafides

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Torture isn't fighting. It isn't collateral damage. It's intentional, focused, wrong-headed, barbaric and fruitless.

Where's the declaration of war? Who are we at war with?

If we can do that to foreign nationals, can we do it to domestic criminals using the same justifications?

We shouldn't do it because we're above it. We're not some third-world banana republic, we're the USA, dammit. That used to mean something, Jack Nicholson fictional tirade notwithstanding.

Don't let the bastards drag you down to their level, and I mean the internal bastards more than anything else. That kind of crap being done in our name isn't OK. At least it isn't OK with me, and I hope not with most of us.

I can't stop it, but I can sure as hell not be supportive of it.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:22 PM
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a reply to: St Udio

There it is!

I wondering how long it would take for someone to come in here and blame Obama while in the same breath calling him a Muslim.

I have an ongoing bet with a fellow member. You my friend just earned me a quarter!



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:23 PM
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a reply to: St Udio

I am by no means taking partisan sides on this issue. This is simply my take on the reality of the situation.

Of course, I recognize and acknowledge that reality is subjective. And this is largely true for my position as well, I realize this. No personal take on this is necessarily correct. It's my opinion.

We're all allowed to have them.


- NF



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:24 PM
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a reply to: nullafides

The war on drugs is also a war...

So my point stands.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:24 PM
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originally posted by: yeahright
a reply to: nullafides

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


I can't stop it, but I can sure as hell not be supportive of it.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.






And that's your right. A right supported and maintained by various unappealing and disgusting aspects of survival as well as war.


-NF



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:26 PM
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originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: nullafides

The war on drugs is also a war...

So my point stands.






This is not about standing points.

And also, the war on drugs? The war on drugs is a war on the people and the ability for the government to obtain and demand funding. Not to mention the ability to play both sides.

[shrug]


-NF



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:27 PM
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a reply to: nullafides


We're talking about interrogation during wartime.



We're talking about sexual abuse...


Care to explain why you would advocate something like that?



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:27 PM
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a reply to: nullafides

I agree with all of your points regarding mercy towards the enemy, and fighting for survival.
Yes, war is an ugly, disgusting fact. But torture should not be used in interrogation. There are other ways.

We have to draw a line somewhere. Act as an example, even. Yes, other nations torture. Many of them use even more barbaric methods than was revealed in the senate release. But does that give us the gumption to do the same?

I remember when the US served as an example for how to treat your fellow humans. We were admired for our restraint, and diplomacy. We were also feared by despots who would threaten the civil liberties of their citizens.

We can get back to that, and one way is to phase out torture. It's barbaric, and unneeded in today's world of modern intelligence gathering techniques.



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:28 PM
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originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

With the VICTOR who'll tell us what happened.



Victors always write the history books. And in this case, it's the democrats writing "the truth" about largely republican viewpoints and practices.

AGAIN, I'll state that I am NOT taking a partisan stance on this. This is equally true with regards to the republicans writing the "truth" about the democrats.


-NF



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:30 PM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Please go back, and re-read my original post. It talks about taking things too far. It also talks about what will happen to work with the scenario at hand.


I know you don't approve of my viewpoint. That's ok. I'm good with it.


-NF



posted on Dec, 10 2014 @ 12:31 PM
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i have been thinking a lot about this lately.
first let me say i do not understand the whole rules of war thing.
i mean killing is killing....i just dont understand how this thing here is acceptable to do but this thing over here is not...makes no sense to me.

im not sure about torture either.
we hear all the time about how it is not effective and people will tell you anything you want to hear to make it stop.
we also hear how it breaks you mentally...we hear about the fear.

so while i suppose it is totally possible a person will lie to make it stop, the whole fear aspect also tells me that they will more than likely tell the truth for fear if they are caught in a lie it wont stop.

should people be tortured? probably not
will people stop torturing? absolutely not

torture has been around since the beginning of time and is not going anywhere...

i try to think of it like this.
we are at war. we come across john doe on the other side...we will blow his head off or hit him with a grenade or blast him with a flame thrower. no problem.
thats all ok but water boarding is a big no no?

i just dont get it.



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