I feel that Jack Nicholson's idea here is correct, but not in regards to the PFC Santiago the movie focuses on.
How in the world do people actually expect information to be gained? What, are we supposed to be English LEO's who have to quote Monty Python by
saying "STOP, or I'll say STOP again!!!!" ?
Pure pain and torture will not work at the same levels, or for the same duration, for every potential source of information. This is where I feel the
CIA has gone wrong. They failed to assess the level of what would work vs what was beyond the point of being effective.
I worked with a man who served in Vietnam as an intelligence specialist. He said that when he strongly suspected that four or fewer people knew
something, but they suspected one in particular, they'd gather all four of them up. They load them onto a huey, and take off to about 400 feet.
Starting with the least likely to know or speak the truth, they'd clearly state their question. If they didn't answer, out the door. The man I
worked with said that by the time they got to the one they felt strongest about knowing the truth, that person would always talk. And that over 90%
of the time, spill the truth.
Is this violent? Yes. Is this horrible? Yes. War is not pretty. Neither is gathering information from people as desperate as to strap bombs to
themselves and take as many lives as they could, not to mention their own. These are the same types of people who would strap the bomb to a child.
I know that almost everyone here will cry out about how peace is the way. Humanity shouldn't stoop to such lows. Torture is wrong.
Sorry, if it's time for war, chivalry and knighthood is antiquated. How can you adhere to rules that others will not?
It's wonderful that antiquated stances such as this are becoming less and less common.
Torture is a terrible interrogation technique, and rarely, if ever provides useful intelligence. There are dozens, if not hundreds of different ways
to gather intelligence rather than torture. In today's world of advanced surveillance, wire tapping, cyber exploits, undercover ops, and the myriad
other ways that people can gather information, Torture has become the vestigial organ of intelligence gathering techniques and should be discarded.
My question to you is, how do you know it is not effective?
To be honest, I think this was a viral thought spread after Guantanamo was exposed.
Yet again, War.
Not pretty, not polite, not bound to rules. It's a rather disgusting and messy aspect of being the animal known as human. Yes, animal. Everyone
wants to believe that humans are some sort of angelic being.
We have the capacity to be this, but, we are mired in hubris to believe we are not also animals with animal instincts as well
Now, I know the counter to this will be "But we're better than that! We can think! We can negotiate! We can chose peace!"
I'll give quarter when it is worthwhile. I'll show mercy when it is called for. But IMHO, only a fool thinks these things will always keep
you alive. Someone who has had the luxury of not having to do the things necessary to stay alive. Someone who has never looked death in the face.
I'm truly curious as to what the service members here think? I don't anticipate that all will agree.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
Torture isn't fighting. It isn't collateral damage. It's intentional, focused, wrong-headed, barbaric and fruitless.
Where's the declaration of war? Who are we at war with?
If we can do that to foreign nationals, can we do it to domestic criminals using the same justifications?
We shouldn't do it because we're above it. We're not some third-world banana republic, we're the USA, dammit. That used to mean something, Jack
Nicholson fictional tirade notwithstanding.
Don't let the bastards drag you down to their level, and I mean the internal bastards more than anything else. That kind of crap being done in our
name isn't OK. At least it isn't OK with me, and I hope not with most of us.
I can't stop it, but I can sure as hell not be supportive of it.
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
I agree with all of your points regarding mercy towards the enemy, and fighting for survival.
Yes, war is an ugly, disgusting fact. But torture should not be used in interrogation. There are other ways.
We have to draw a line somewhere. Act as an example, even. Yes, other nations torture. Many of them use even more barbaric methods than was revealed
in the senate release. But does that give us the gumption to do the same?
I remember when the US served as an example for how to treat your fellow humans. We were admired for our restraint, and diplomacy. We were also feared
by despots who would threaten the civil liberties of their citizens.
We can get back to that, and one way is to phase out torture. It's barbaric, and unneeded in today's world of modern intelligence gathering
i have been thinking a lot about this lately.
first let me say i do not understand the whole rules of war thing.
i mean killing is killing....i just dont understand how this thing here is acceptable to do but this thing over here is not...makes no sense to me.
im not sure about torture either.
we hear all the time about how it is not effective and people will tell you anything you want to hear to make it stop.
we also hear how it breaks you mentally...we hear about the fear.
so while i suppose it is totally possible a person will lie to make it stop, the whole fear aspect also tells me that they will more than likely tell
the truth for fear if they are caught in a lie it wont stop.
should people be tortured? probably not
will people stop torturing? absolutely not
torture has been around since the beginning of time and is not going anywhere...
i try to think of it like this.
we are at war. we come across john doe on the other side...we will blow his head off or hit him with a grenade or blast him with a flame thrower. no
thats all ok but water boarding is a big no no?
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