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My thoughts on the CIA Torture "revelations"

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posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 01:48 PM
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I'm getting tired of repeating myself, but this enrages me so much that I'm throwing in my thruppence worth. Torture does not work as an interrogation technique. It has never worked as an interrogation technique, as at least one CIA report from the 1980's attests to. Why? Because someone who is being tortured will say anything at all to get it to stop. Anything. They will make up facts out of absolutely nothing to get it to stop. They're confess to belonging to conspiracies that don't exist. If something that they say gets the torturer to stop the torture, they'll then double up on it. It's unreliable. It's also stupid. It reduces you to the same level as the terrorists and means that your Allies wonder what else you'll do.




posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 01:55 PM
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originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
I'm getting tired of repeating myself, but this enrages me so much that I'm throwing in my thruppence worth. Torture does not work as an interrogation technique. It has never worked as an interrogation technique, as at least one CIA report from the 1980's attests to. Why? Because someone who is being tortured will say anything at all to get it to stop. Anything. They will make up facts out of absolutely nothing to get it to stop. They're confess to belonging to conspiracies that don't exist. If something that they say gets the torturer to stop the torture, they'll then double up on it. It's unreliable. It's also stupid. It reduces you to the same level as the terrorists and means that your Allies wonder what else you'll do.



AND.....you've worked as an intelligence officer in almost any capacity WHEN ?


The whole meme of "torture only makes the prisoners lie" is not only BS it was spoon fed via the current US Gov't and it's allies wanting to distance themselves from "those other guys" (funny, only two choices there)....

Sorry you're enraged. Calm down. Have a cup of jo and a smoke. Whatever.



-NF



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 01:55 PM
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a reply to: nullafides

What 1 is saying is those performing acts to support benevolence like ANGELS at times must be equipped in mind and behavior to face off with the Demonic or malevolent behaviors. And at times those face offs are based on mirroring the projected malevolence upon the Demonic.
Mirror used because they don't go starting trouble torturing and attacking, but when some are potentially in harms way do to malevolent threats of destruction of many in mass from the demonic, the angelic must respond accordingly in order to PROTECT those in mass otherwise everyone is mad they didn't.

So they must respond or mirror somewhat the projected ways of the malevolent-demonic in order to save/protect...



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 02:00 PM
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a reply to: AngryCymraeg

im thinking it works some of the time.
if people will say anything to get it to stop, well that includes the truth.

if the fear of continued torture is so bad, im sure not all would be as tough as john rambo and risk the lie being found out for yet more torture.



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 02:03 PM
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originally posted by: Ophiuchus 13
a reply to: nullafides

What 1 is saying is those performing acts to support benevolence like ANGELS at times must be equipped in mind and behavior to face off with the Demonic or malevolent behaviors. And at times those face offs are based on mirroring the projected malevolence upon the Demonic.
Mirror used because they don't go starting trouble torturing and attacking, but when some are potentially in harms way do to malevolent threats of destruction of many in mass from the demonic, the angelic must respond accordingly in order to PROTECT those in mass otherwise everyone is mad they didn't.

So they must respond or mirror somewhat the projected ways of the malevolent-demonic in order to save/protect...



That's why I asked



Thank you




-NF



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 02:05 PM
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originally posted by: Grovit
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

im thinking it works some of the time.
if people will say anything to get it to stop, well that includes the truth.

if the fear of continued torture is so bad, im sure not all would be as tough as john rambo and risk the lie being found out for yet more torture.



Here's a thought...and it's not by any means against you, Grovit...

In retail environments, if you've got a gun to your head and are asked to tell them where the money is, you tell them the truth. After all, it's THEIR money, not yours...who cares...we're talking about your own life here.

I have done this, as has my wife.


-NF



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 02:13 PM
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a reply to: nullafides

Your welcome



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 02:21 PM
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originally posted by: nullafides

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
I'm getting tired of repeating myself, but this enrages me so much that I'm throwing in my thruppence worth. Torture does not work as an interrogation technique. It has never worked as an interrogation technique, as at least one CIA report from the 1980's attests to. Why? Because someone who is being tortured will say anything at all to get it to stop. Anything. They will make up facts out of absolutely nothing to get it to stop. They're confess to belonging to conspiracies that don't exist. If something that they say gets the torturer to stop the torture, they'll then double up on it. It's unreliable. It's also stupid. It reduces you to the same level as the terrorists and means that your Allies wonder what else you'll do.



AND.....you've worked as an intelligence officer in almost any capacity WHEN ?


The whole meme of "torture only makes the prisoners lie" is not only BS it was spoon fed via the current US Gov't and it's allies wanting to distance themselves from "those other guys" (funny, only two choices there)....

Sorry you're enraged. Calm down. Have a cup of jo and a smoke. Whatever.



-NF


Well, here's a quote from someone who knows exactly what's talking about. Someone who has been tortured. I quote: "Under torture a person will say anything he thinks his captors want to hear — true or false — if he believes it will relieve his suffering.” The person I just quoted? John McCain.
And in 1989, the C.I.A. informed Congress that “inhumane physical or psychological techniques are counterproductive because they do not produce intelligence and will probably result in false answers.”



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 02:23 PM
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a reply to: AngryCymraeg

and the person being tortured has no fear of telling them the guy you want is in building x. then when they go to building x nobody is there.
ok man



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 02:31 PM
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originally posted by: AngryCymraeg


Well, here's a quote from someone who knows exactly what's talking about. Someone who has been tortured. I quote: "Under torture a person will say anything he thinks his captors want to hear — true or false — if he believes it will relieve his suffering.” The person I just quoted? John McCain.
And in 1989, the C.I.A. informed Congress that “inhumane physical or psychological techniques are counterproductive because they do not produce intelligence and will probably result in false answers.”


That is a very good point for debate.

Please do remember though, I did in my original post state that I felt the CIA is at fault for blatant use of unrestrained force in using torture during interrogations. I do feel every person has a breaking point, and that could very well be different for every person. As professionals (the agency, the psychologists involved, etc), they should be pretty damned well versed in knowing when someone has met their point of breaking, and not in a good way with regards to giving relevant information.

Now, McCain was obviously detained and tortured for an exceedingly long time, and with little knowledge or concern for what a persons mental and physical state will do with regards to telling the truth in exchange for the torture to stop or telling a lie. I believe his statement, within the parameters that I've laid out above. However, the caveat is that I do not believe the man. I believe McCain would lie to his own children over important matters.

And with regards to the CIA quote in 1989? Have you not read the primer on the CIA ?


They lie for a living.




-NF



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 02:32 PM
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originally posted by: Grovit
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

and the person being tortured has no fear of telling them the guy you want is in building x. then when they go to building x nobody is there.
ok man


Grovit, I don't understand the point you're making. Could you elaborate a bit?



-NF



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 02:42 PM
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originally posted by: Grovit
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

and the person being tortured has no fear of telling them the guy you want is in building x. then when they go to building x nobody is there.
ok man


In which case he or she makes something else up, if it gets the torture to stop. The lines between truth and lies blur. The thing is, it's therefore totally unreliable. People will say anything to get it to stop, and the more you continue the torture then the more the chances are that the person being tortured will break - mentally or physically. In which case congratulations, you've just blown your chance of getting intelligence! There are other techniques - more reliable techniques. You don't get intelligence by beating the hell out of people. Intelligence officers aren't in it for revenge - you get more with less harsh methods. Anyway you don't beat the hell out of terrorists period, because that reduces you to their level - they've won.



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 02:45 PM
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originally posted by: nullafides

Grovit, I don't understand the point you're making. Could you elaborate a bit?

-NF


sure. we keep hearing that people will say anything to get it to stop. i agree. they will.
the truth is included in anything.
we also hear how crazy the fear of torture is...people just want it to stop.

what i mean is if john doe is being tortured and really has no info logic says he will say what they want to hear to get it to stop.

flip it

if john doe is being tortured and he does know what they want, will he under this mental stress and fear of more torture lie or tell the truth.
if he lies, he may get more torture.
if he tells the truth it 'may' end

im thinking they will tell the truth



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 02:55 PM
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a reply to: Grovit

The tit for tat stuff got out of hand when they began mutilating our guys,then WE took ears... and so on.

Wrong, Right? It's what IS DONE. Wether you know it or NOT.
Remember as well the admin leaks like a sieve. They haven't got the real info just a fluff piece that was found out ALREADY.
They have new games when this happens.
Stopping it?
HA!
Yeah sure.
Maybe a coup or civil war.



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 03:00 PM
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a reply to: AngryCymraeg

In such a limited scenario you of course win.
What if the variables of the subject you want to know about are imediate?
Hurt them now and go do the op then Kill them if they lied?
Perhaps WE should use the Russian methods of negotiating with terrorists, Kidnap their family?

YOU and I aren't THERE to know,higher morality has been an illusion from the start because of SECRECY.
THERES your morality.



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 03:15 PM
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I recall as a child getting into fights. About three times a week after school.
When I was winning I would put a hold on the foe and start making it hurt (torture)
and then start interrogating him. "Are you going to leave me alone?"
"Are you going to stop fighting if I let you up?"

With the application of just the right amount of hurt and pain,
plus a little more to test the breaking point of the body part,
the for would tell me the truth.

My personal experience is torture works.

We all know torture works.

We caught some of the foe (bullies with explosives)
and are torturing them to give it up.

Sometimes I would have to fight the same guy two to three
days in the same week, till he finally learned his lesson.



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 03:17 PM
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a reply to: AngryCymraeg

the CIA has stated that the enhanced interrogation
techniques produced intelligence that eventually led to OBL.

Obviously some of the EIM recipients told the truth, right?????



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 03:19 PM
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originally posted by: Grovit

originally posted by: nullafides

Grovit, I don't understand the point you're making. Could you elaborate a bit?

-NF


sure. we keep hearing that people will say anything to get it to stop. i agree. they will.
the truth is included in anything.
we also hear how crazy the fear of torture is...people just want it to stop.

what i mean is if john doe is being tortured and really has no info logic says he will say what they want to hear to get it to stop.

flip it

if john doe is being tortured and he does know what they want, will he under this mental stress and fear of more torture lie or tell the truth.
if he lies, he may get more torture.
if he tells the truth it 'may' end

im thinking they will tell the truth



I agree absolutely.

And in the case where the person genuinely doesn't know, I feel that those administrating the interrogation should know the difference (observation, psychological tests, verifying information via lie detector or the equivalent and more reliable approaches, etc) and cease interrogation where it is allowable.

I am by no means "F%^%&^ yeah!!! Let's torture this guy!!!". If it is avoidable, avoid. If not, do what is necessary.


-NF



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 03:21 PM
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originally posted by: nullafides


I am by no means "F%^%&^ yeah!!! Let's torture this guy!!!". If it is avoidable, avoid. If not, do what is necessary.


-NF


yeah, thats about where i am at with it
i dont think it should be the first go to thing but i dont think it should be taken off the table as an option

the whole 'if we lower ourselves to their standards then they have won' comment really makes me chuckle



posted on Dec, 11 2014 @ 04:01 PM
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originally posted by: Grovit

originally posted by: nullafides


I am by no means "F%^%&^ yeah!!! Let's torture this guy!!!". If it is avoidable, avoid. If not, do what is necessary.


-NF


yeah, thats about where i am at with it
i dont think it should be the first go to thing but i dont think it should be taken off the table as an option

the whole 'if we lower ourselves to their standards then they have won' comment really makes me chuckle



Yepp, kinda like I chuckle at the thought of faeries, santa, lightbringers, good, evil, bad, us, them, etc, etc, etc, ad-nauseum.....




-NF




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