Senate CIA Torture Report Released: "Mismanaged Dungeons"

originally posted by: Nyiah
I don't give a rat's ass who released this, the fact of the matter is that it's right there in brief, and it's both nauseating, and damned humiliating. THIS CRAP is WHY we're hated abroad, don't try to downplay that with partisan bullsnip. Our government is such an expert at the game of hypocrisy, but this is simply a massive middle finger to the world, while we stomp our feet & demand others do as we say (but not as we do!)

I'm still reading the report, but it's been awful reading thus far. We Americans elect the animals who put the depraved beasts in charge of these pits of hell

worth repeating.

originally posted by: mmorse32
can i ask why this is sooooo important? in other news, we have ISIS hacking off heads of Americans and others. Additionally, al Qaida - whom was not involved with hacking heads off with butter knives, now has seen the exposure that ISIS is getting - so guess what?? they are going to adopt the same tactics...

wah wah CIA torture was mismanaged - i say we drop the senate democrats off in the middle easy for a day or two and see how it goes.

no?

This is not a partisan issue. Torture is illegal. There is no illusion of "higher moral ground" for America, any longer.

I think it's funny sad, ironic, absurd here that so many "anti-statists" are now blaming Democrats for simply revealing the truth (and not much of that even) about the HORRIFIC abuses of power in our government's recent past.

If we don't pursue criminal activity on the part of our leaders, whether Republican or Democrat, and if we tacitly endorse this kind of human rights abuses, then, and this is what the world is now telling us, we have NOTHING to say about what others do.

If you endorse this kind of monstrous activity, then you are no better than the worst example of ISIS, Al Qaeda, or whatever other boogey-man you wish to name. In my opinion.

originally posted by: RoScoLaz4

originally posted by: Nyiah
I don't give a rat's ass who released this, the fact of the matter is that it's right there in brief, and it's both nauseating, and damned humiliating. THIS CRAP is WHY we're hated abroad, don't try to downplay that with partisan bullsnip. Our government is such an expert at the game of hypocrisy, but this is simply a massive middle finger to the world, while we stomp our feet & demand others do as we say (but not as we do!)

I'm still reading the report, but it's been awful reading thus far. We Americans elect the animals who put the depraved beasts in charge of these pits of hell

worth repeating.

oh i see what your saying - i dont mean to say that our government is less wrong or shouldnt be held to a higher standard - it should be -

i am sure - other govt's are using worse tactics and i am sure everyone will say "we should be held higher than them" but, in reality we arent the worse. And releasing this stuff - just makes us look like panzies and opens up even more reason to hack heads off.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: mmorse32
can i ask why this is sooooo important? in other news, we have ISIS hacking off heads of Americans and others. Additionally, al Qaida - whom was not involved with hacking heads off with butter knives, now has seen the exposure that ISIS is getting - so guess what?? they are going to adopt the same tactics...

wah wah CIA torture was mismanaged - i say we drop the senate democrats off in the middle easy for a day or two and see how it goes.

no?

This is not a partisan issue. Torture is illegal. There is no illusion of higher ground for America, any longer.

I think it's funny here that so many "anti-statists" are now blaming the Democrats for simply revealing the truth (and not much of that even) about the HORRIFIC abuses of power in our government's recent past.

If we don't pursue criminal activity on the part of our leaders, whether Republican or Democrat, and if we tacitly endorse this kind of human rights abuses, then, and this is what the world is now telling us, we have NOTHING to say about what others do.

i am taking a non-partisan side on this - i do not blame any democrat or republican separately. Our govt has got us into this on both sides and neither has a solution.

the problem is the view of the world as you are stating and i agree - we are TARNISHED as a country. either from people saying "you cant say anything about what we do, look at you" or people saying "HA! your country is on trial for less than we do you panzies!!"

originally posted by: mmorse32

i am taking a non-partisan side on this - i do not blame any democrat or republican separately. Our govt has got us into this on both sides and neither has a solution.

Really? Non-partisan, huh? I think you and I have vastly different ideas about what that word means.

originally posted by: mmorse32
wah wah CIA torture was mismanaged - i say we drop the senate democrats off in the middle east for a day or two and see how it goes.

no?

We're either looking for the truth, and denying ignorance, or we're not.

I personally hold the Democrat in the White House who did everything he could to keep this report from coming to the light of day as now complicit with what the Republican in the White House who approved these horrors.

Senator Feinstein made sure this wouldn't get reburied. You can blame the messenger if you wish.

originally posted by: kdyam
As far as calling these torture tactics heinous or barbaric, sleep deprivation and water boarding, electric shock and the like are far from the judas chairs, racks, and jawbreakers of times past.

No, they are not. They are the same.

The question comes down to what would you do to keep your family, friends or country safe? I know how I would answer, so will your heart bleed all over the place while they stand in danger or are detained and tortured themselves? Or will you do something about it that may make you feel bad in the morning but know they are safe for another day?

Granting your argument for the moment that torture works, although all evidence is to the contrary. Why is the life of your friend worth more than the life of their friend?

originally posted by: spiritualzombie
a reply to: Kandinsky

Actually this torture stuff DID start with Bush. Cheney, Rumsfeld and Gonzales to be exact.

Yes. Neo would LOVE to to make this either politically motivated or "nothing new" but unfortunately in this case, it did in fact start with Bush.

It should be noted that many detention centers including Gitmo resisted the requests to start torturing. They also questioned the legalities, creating a game of tag between Gitmo lawyers and Alberto Gonzales... But in the end Bush made it legal by renaming torture to Enhanced Interrogation.

Accept it. Own it.

Oh hell that crap isn't going to fly.

Intentionally IGNORE this post, and ITS SOURCE ?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

IGNORE this one too ?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Ya know the one about BLACK PHOENIX

Heres more on that:

en.wikipedia.org...

IGNORED This one too sounds like.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It did NOT start under GW.

Especially READ that one from the ACLU.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
I am profoundly angry that in my name as an American people are having their humans rights violated, being tortured, refused due process, etc.

If you knew about this and had proof but didn't speak up publicly then you are equally guilty. Just following orders is not a defense.

A true story: Several years ago, the CIA informed the White House counterterrorism adviser that it had located a wanted Islamic terrorist and requested White House guidance for how to proceed. The counterterrorism adviser recommended “extraordinary rendition” — snatching the terrorist in a covert operation and secretly whisking him away for interrogation in a foreign country. A White House lawyer demanded a meeting with the president to argue that this would be a violation of international law. In the Oval Office, the lawyer and the counterterrorism adviser argued their cases, when suddenly the vice president walked in. Hearing the lawyer’s objections, he said: “Of course it’s a violation of international law, that’s why it’s a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass.’ ” The rendition was authorized.

Arrest Bill Clinton!

Extraordinary rendition or irregular rendition is the government sponsored abducting and extrajudicial transfer of a person from one country to another.[1] In the United States President Clinton authorized extraordinary rendition to nations known to practice torture, called torture by proxy.[2] Under the subsequent administration of President George W. Bush, the term became associated with transferring so-called "illegal combatants" (often never charged with any crime) both to other countries for torture by proxy, and to US controlled sites for a torture program called enhanced interrogation.[3][4][5][6] Extraordinary rendition continued with reduced frequency in the Obama administration: those abducted have been interrogated and subsequently taken to the US for trial.[7][8]

en.wikipedia.org...

'Torture' was ok under Johnson, and CLinton, but 'bad' under GW!

Selective outrage.

According to Clinton administration official Richard Clarke:
"In 1995, American agents proposed the rendition program to Egypt, making clear that it had the resources to track, capture, and transport terrorist suspects globally—including access to a small fleet of aircraft. Egypt embraced the idea... 'What was clever was that some of the senior people in Al Qaeda were Egyptian,' Scheuer said. 'It served American purposes to get these people arrested, and Egyptian purposes to get these people back, where they could be interrogated.' Technically, U.S. law requires the CIA to seek 'assurances' from foreign governments that rendered suspects won’t be tortured. Scheuer told me that this was done, but he was 'not sure' if any documents confirming the arrangement were signed."[40]

And:

According to Clinton administration official Richard Clarke: “ 'extraordinary renditions', were operations to apprehend terrorists abroad, usually without the knowledge of and almost always without public acknowledgment of the host government.... The first time I proposed a snatch, in 1993, the White House Counsel, Lloyd Cutler, demanded a meeting with the President to explain how it violated international law. Clinton had seemed to be siding with Cutler until Al Gore belatedly joined the meeting, having just flown overnight from South Africa. Clinton recapped the arguments on both sides for Gore: "Lloyd says this. Dick says that. Gore laughed and said, 'That's a no-brainer. Of course it's a violation of international law, that's why it's a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass.'"[39]

originally posted by: neo96
'Torture' was ok under Johnson, and CLinton, but 'bad' under GW!

Selective outrage.

No, torture was just as bad under them. In Clinton and Johnsons favor however they were atleast only targeting terrorists and other specific international criminals. Under Bush we quite literally just grabbed brown people off the streets on the off chance they knew something. We still cannot prove that most of the people sent to Guantanamo or that were tortured had any ties at all to terrorism, and that's after interrogating them for years upon years.

Why do people assume we have been different than what we have done for the last 200 years? hehe

Also, define torture... I think we can label anything that is disagreeable to anyone as a form of torture, in any case it is a sliding scale any given day of the week. Today water boarding is considered torture, but 6 months after 911 it wasn't, so I guess we can just wait for it to shift back again...lol

a reply to: Xtrozero

No it shifted from 'waterboarding, and torture' was evil.

To its just better to killing them outright with drones.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
Why do people assume we have been different than what we have done for the last 200 years? hehe

Also, define torture... I think we can label anything that is disagreeable to anyone as a form of torture, in any case it is a sliding scale any given day of the week. Today water boarding is considered torture, but 6 months after 911 it wasn't, so I guess we can just wait for it to shift back again...lol

No, it was considered torture then too. Bush however had some lawyers say that it wasn't. Basically, the legal ruling used was that the US definition of torture only applied inside the US. As long as the actions we took weren't on US soil it wasn't torture, and thus wasn't illegal. The act itself is considered torture, in World War 2 the US executed many Japanese for war crimes because they waterboarded US soldiers.

Who would have ever thought there would be such a thing as torture apologists outside of the government? Those of you who are, I can't even see you as fully human anymore.

a reply to: neo96

It doesn't matter who it started under because it still happened. More articles are surfacing from this report including this one:
C.I.A. Kept Bush Ill Informed on Interrogation Tactics, Torture Report Says

For four years, according to Central Intelligence Agency records, no one from the C.I.A. ever came to the Oval Office to give President George W. Bush a full briefing on what was happening in the dark dungeons of Afghanistan and Eastern Europe. For four years, interrogators stripped and slammed and soaked their prisoners without the president’s being told exactly what was going on.

This is so much more than just what the US government did, it's becoming what the CIA did alone. Much like what the NSA has been doing with regards to domestic spying.

What's especially more extraordinary is that this report was released by congress and not by any specific whistleblowers.

a reply to: Kali74

Had no idear that exposing the TRUTH of just how long the US has been torturing people was being an 'apologist'.

For some odd reason I wonder why people ignore it.

Because they can't blame Bush for it ?

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
I am profoundly angry that in my name as an American people are having their humans rights violated, being tortured, refused due process, etc.

If you knew about this and had proof but didn't speak up publicly then you are equally guilty. Just following orders is not a defense.

i HAVE been speaking publicly about such issues. And i work in international development and human rights, etc, precisely as an antidote to this kind of stuff.

Did you not know about the torture happening? It's been known since the Bush era.

And I didn't follow orders. If you know that phrase it comes from Nuremburg in reference to soldiers, not citizens... But yes, I hold citizens responsible for their silence or support of such practices.

Exactly, there are a lot of sub-human Americans. But I"ve known that since Bush came to power. All of those rabid going to war and bombing Iraq people, supporting torture too. No better than nazis in a way.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
Why do people assume we have been different than what we have done for the last 200 years? hehe

Also, define torture... I think we can label anything that is disagreeable to anyone as a form of torture, in any case it is a sliding scale any given day of the week. Today water boarding is considered torture, but 6 months after 911 it wasn't, so I guess we can just wait for it to shift back again...lol

Nope, we have international agreements and law after WWI and WWII that we SIGNED prohibiting these actions. Sorry, Constitution says treaties shall be the law of the land.

AND, we convicted Japanese officers of waterboarding American soldiers during wwII !! So no, waterboarding has been considered torture since WWII.

originally posted by: neo96

A true story: Several years ago, the CIA informed the White House counterterrorism adviser that it had located a wanted Islamic terrorist and requested White House guidance for how to proceed. The counterterrorism adviser recommended “extraordinary rendition” — snatching the terrorist in a covert operation and secretly whisking him away for interrogation in a foreign country. A White House lawyer demanded a meeting with the president to argue that this would be a violation of international law. In the Oval Office, the lawyer and the counterterrorism adviser argued their cases, when suddenly the vice president walked in. Hearing the lawyer’s objections, he said: “Of course it’s a violation of international law, that’s why it’s a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass.’ ” The rendition was authorized.

Arrest Bill Clinton!

Extraordinary rendition or irregular rendition is the government sponsored abducting and extrajudicial transfer of a person from one country to another.[1] In the United States President Clinton authorized extraordinary rendition to nations known to practice torture, called torture by proxy.[2] Under the subsequent administration of President George W. Bush, the term became associated with transferring so-called "illegal combatants" (often never charged with any crime) both to other countries for torture by proxy, and to US controlled sites for a torture program called enhanced interrogation.[3][4][5][6] Extraordinary rendition continued with reduced frequency in the Obama administration: those abducted have been interrogated and subsequently taken to the US for trial.[7][8]

en.wikipedia.org...

'Torture' was ok under Johnson, and CLinton, but 'bad' under GW!

Selective outrage.

According to Clinton administration official Richard Clarke:
"In 1995, American agents proposed the rendition program to Egypt, making clear that it had the resources to track, capture, and transport terrorist suspects globally—including access to a small fleet of aircraft. Egypt embraced the idea... 'What was clever was that some of the senior people in Al Qaeda were Egyptian,' Scheuer said. 'It served American purposes to get these people arrested, and Egyptian purposes to get these people back, where they could be interrogated.' Technically, U.S. law requires the CIA to seek 'assurances' from foreign governments that rendered suspects won’t be tortured. Scheuer told me that this was done, but he was 'not sure' if any documents confirming the arrangement were signed."[40]

And:

According to Clinton administration official Richard Clarke: “ 'extraordinary renditions', were operations to apprehend terrorists abroad, usually without the knowledge of and almost always without public acknowledgment of the host government.... The first time I proposed a snatch, in 1993, the White House Counsel, Lloyd Cutler, demanded a meeting with the President to explain how it violated international law. Clinton had seemed to be siding with Cutler until Al Gore belatedly joined the meeting, having just flown overnight from South Africa. Clinton recapped the arguments on both sides for Gore: "Lloyd says this. Dick says that. Gore laughed and said, 'That's a no-brainer. Of course it's a violation of international law, that's why it's a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass.'"[39]

Don't pull this "selective outrage" junk.

What apologists like you try to do is project and make up some magical non-existent poll that most of us against torture or war are only against it if it's the opposite party. While that is true for some or even many, not all of us by any means.