Black Triangle UFOs and an Alleged Breakaway Civilization- Discuss

a reply to: BASSPLYR

You are no longer allowed to go on this website or any like it. You are to terminate all contact with the people who were talking to on these websites. You are to shut the hell up.

And: You will make one last post discrediting everything you have said until now?

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
A breakaway civilization reminds me of the plot in the Issac Asimov series "Foundation". The "Foundation" was a group of scientists taken to a backwater planet to continue their research while the galactic empire crumbled. It was hoped that this enclave of scientists could rebuild and shorten the time between the collapse of the empire and the building of a new one.

Perhaps human knowledge and science is being whisked off world because Earth is slowly deteriorating?

well you might have something. I remember astro saying something about other than the cloaked space station there are enclaves of humans out near the oort cloud. But who can be sure huh?

maybe we used to have ancestors on mars and earth is heading the same direction?

a reply to: Agnost

If it helps take some of the heat off yeah.

a reply to: Guyfriday

Orphans? Maybe... I picture a gaggle of Victorian children dressed in rags, driving massive black triangles... but many semi smart, motivated folks would gladly disappear to get a chance at playing Star Trek.

A---0 mentioned their current number at 13,000 or so... and until a better explanation comes along, I'm still (at least) considering what he said... however silly it seems. Our whole existence and situation (especially our latest unreal findings in physics) is fairly improbable too.

Something is still flying around up there exhibiting some serious high tech... so it's aliens, aliens and/or military/black projects, plasma critters, ultra dimensional super beings ...or all of the above and then some.

And Orion was/is a perfectly feasible method of space travel that too suddenly winked out... so still finding the tale at the very least ...plausible.

We only think we know what we know... after all.

a reply to: Baddogma

The breakaway civ & massive Orion drives don't make sense to me.

As far as being "perfectly feasible", that's an enormous stretch of the definition of "feasible". It's feasible the way a tunnel from NY to London is.

The economic & industrial footprint to make such craft would be enormous. Consider that each one would have to be at least a kilometer in length and hence assembled in orbit. What's that, 40-50 launches of heavy lift vehicles?

What's the radiation exposure to crew? It's already very high outside the Earth's atmosphere & magnetosphere, and now you're blowing up a few hundred neutron bombs right next to you.

How do hundreds of nuclear explosive devices "go missing"? People keep track of these things pretty carefully. Presumably LANL or LLNL would have to be designing particular devices and refining & testing them as the requirements are quite different. Where's the evidence? Even if details of warheads are classified, the rough identity of the requirements aren't and are known from DOE documents.

And nobody else ever saying anything like "oh we have a mile long nuclear explosive powered spacecraft? No wait, we have 10 of them?"

How many people worked on Apollo? It was a huge part of California aerospace in the 1960's.

Astr0 definitely had some insider knowledge of UK and USA projects (some indications he's british). He started out much less science-fictiony and far more technical. (**) And he even said himself that people mix fact and fiction. It worked: people here are talking about all the lurid and ridiculous stuff, diluting the signal in more and more noise.

(**) Once mentioned a name I'd never heard of. Following it lead to this: sbir.gsfc.nasa.gov...

originally posted by: mbkennel
a reply to: Baddogma
The economic & industrial footprint to make such craft would be enormous. Consider that each one would have to be at least a kilometer in length and hence assembled in orbit. What's that, 40-50 launches of heavy lift vehicles?

There were quite a few heavy lift rockets going up during the cold war. A few spare parts here and there added along for the ride? Besides, they have sea-based launch facilities. The general public would never know about these launches.

It's entirely possible to launch the needed materials into orbit through piggybacking on Saturn-V rockets. Those rockets were massive, in comparison to the space shuttle. Look at the sizes of the command and lunar module, I wonder why the rocket needed to be so big?

Who knows, the moon missions may have been a cover for deploying needed construction materials to orbit.

And if you're building your own special nukes from scratch for Orion, they'd never be entered into the US's inventory -- so they'd never be missed.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom

originally posted by: mbkennel
a reply to: Baddogma
The economic & industrial footprint to make such craft would be enormous. Consider that each one would have to be at least a kilometer in length and hence assembled in orbit. What's that, 40-50 launches of heavy lift vehicles?

There were quite a few heavy lift rockets going up during the cold war. A few spare parts here and there added along for the ride? Besides, they have sea-based launch facilities. The general public would never know about these launches.

It's entirely possible to launch the needed materials into orbit through piggybacking on Saturn-V rockets. Those rockets were massive, in comparison to the space shuttle. Look at the sizes of the command and lunar module, I wonder why the rocket needed to be so big?

Because you need to lift fuel. There's absolutely no extra payload mass available on Apollo. That's how rockets work.

Who knows, the moon missions may have been a cover for deploying needed construction materials to orbit.

Impossible, they'd need to build 10x-20x as many. It isn't possible to hide the logistics, and besides there's no feasible design. Nobody has assembled something that huge in orbit. Just turning wrenches outside on the ISS is a big problem. Mass fabrication of something more advanced than Apollo in space? Can they support 200 astronauts working simultaneously?

And if you're building your own special nukes from scratch for Orion, they'd never be entered into the US's inventory -- so they'd never be missed.

Not true from the DOE (production) side. Every bit of uranium, tritium, etc flows through a large production infrastructure over many states & plants.

originally posted by: Jukiodone
a reply to: shagg

I posted the article because there is a degree of ambiguity in terms of Mcnamara pulling the plug.

I'm not professing to confirm or deny anything however:

From a rational perspective, a small program of 1 or 2 vessels that use the technology would still require a significant number of people, significant infrastructure, significant materials and significant amounts of money.

I'm not saying it would be IMPOSSIBLE to do this (and have everyone/everything involved kept quiet/disappeared) but it would involve an UNPRECEDENTED level of security ( people often site the Manhattan project as an example but it had lots of security issue in terms of double agents and general leaks).

A lot of time has passed since the 60's and not one whistleblower, piece of evidence or residual clue ???

What were these crafts used for?- The idea of setting up a base in the Moon is great, the idea of terra-forming other planets even better but it would literally be the biggest thing humanity has ever undertaken...so many millions of issues to overcome and do it all in secret seems to over estimate our capabilities... even if the project was attempted today.

I wanted to reply to your notion of the difficulty in keeping a big project quiet. I listed a few large murky operations churning away right after I started commenting in this thread. The Anthill, etc. What I get to thinking on is this though: Put yourself in the shoes of a would-be whistleblower for something like this. They're gonna kill your whole damn family, but the world has to know, you say, so somehow you're okay with this. Pick a year. Let's go 1970. You head on down to the local police station or FBI field office and tell them... ...what, exactly? I'm John Smith and I've been flying nuke starships for the last five years, etc. etc. Once they got done laughing they might throw you in the looney bin, especially if you got upset when they told you that you were full of it. Of course in 1970 they might just think you'd had a little too much "Kool-Aid" or something...

I seem to remember coming across a few stories like that in my ufology studies. The resulting commentary has always led me to believe that most people would dismiss such a story as just that: a fanciful tale, nothing more. I've never been so quick to dismiss wild claims, because sometimes wild claims are true.

On second thought, what am I doing sitting here blogging when I could be out fighting the good fight? I'm gonna give DHS a call and have them put me to work on this stuff. Tell em I know all about those lizard men in the underground bases. They'll probably give me a nice white coat to wear, too! I was just hoping that you would come along so that you can scratch that itch behind my ear once they get me strapped into that coat...

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: yuppa

Graphene is just now coming into the white world via a russian inventor. and others. Which means we have had it for a long time like since the 50s most likely.

This is what never adds up.... the premise that a few scientists back in the day clocked all this info (supposedly attributed to Allice. unlikely imho), kept it dark.... but that doesnt guarantee that other scientists will not discover same things.

If this was only human made advances then how was it kept dark all this time, if all it takes to 'uncover it' is for it to be 'officially' discovered and made public.
The only other theory that answers this is something that humans cannot achieve on thier own!
What you think?

Just because one guy discovers something doesn't mean that he disseminated the information to anyone. There are non-disclosure agreements in the civilian world that carry strict penalties for their violation. If you're talking about defense stuff, or clandestine defense stuff, the penalties could be as harsh as anyone would imagine on the extreme end I'd guess. In the white world, we've known about graphene (or fullerene) for decades, we just haven't been able to produce it in significant quantities until very recently. Just because some people discovered how to produce it decades ago doesn't mean that every scientist would all of a sudden know about it.

Ike's warning again:

The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present—and is gravely to be regarded. Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.

Chemistry is a broad field. You're talking (more than)quadrillions of possible combinations of the elements, many of which have multiple approaches.

a reply to: engineercutout

Chemistry is a broad field. You're talking (more than)quadrillions of possible combinations of the elements, many of which have multiple approaches.

Agreed with everything you said. but you missed the point i was trying to make.
The statistical improbability of somebody finding out something he isnt meant to is still there. Therefore it is not a guarantee. If theres an elite BC (breakaway civ), do you think they would leave it to chance and statistical improbability that their tech wont be found out? Nope.... nobody would take that chance.
Which is why what KPB had too say this whole thread is kind of interesting!

I been reading a bit today and came across something called"solar warden" Apparently if the information is correct there are a total of 42 smaller ufo/airforce craft and 3 cigar clinder shaped craft in operation in space around earth. Interesting thought.

The cigar shaped craft might have been deved from the original ORION program most likely. What do yall think of this possibility?

I found out something we normally take for granted about bob lazar. It appears one part of his story has been verified. Element 115. Ill post a link to it. Its seperate from lazars stuff though.

So does this verify S-4 as a actual location? maybe it is used in the Black dorito.

Bob lazar was correct one something

originally posted by: yuppa
I found out something we normally take for granted about bob lazar. It appears one part of his story has been verified. Element 115. Ill post a link to it. Its seperate from lazars stuff though.

So does this verify S-4 as a actual location? maybe it is used in the Black dorito.

Bob lazar was correct one something

His story is more interesting then most want to admit. The 115 thing could be coincidence though.

In one vid he states they have tech to incapacitate people but the effects of alcohol nullify it. An interesting thing to say considering people with wild claims are often asked if they are drunk.

originally posted by: combatmaster
a reply to: engineercutout

Chemistry is a broad field. You're talking (more than)quadrillions of possible combinations of the elements, many of which have multiple approaches.

Agreed with everything you said. but you missed the point i was trying to make.
The statistical improbability of somebody finding out something he isnt meant to is still there. Therefore it is not a guarantee. If theres an elite BC (breakaway civ), do you think they would leave it to chance and statistical improbability that their tech wont be found out? Nope.... nobody would take that chance.
Which is why what KPB had too say this whole thread is kind of interesting!

I'm still not sure if I understand what you're getting at...are you saying that these sightings are all trickster-type events, or that the trickster-type events are a type of countermeasure, or are you saying something else?

As far as nobody taking that chance, I'd wager it's not so much of a chance as you might think. Take a look at my Ike thread:
Ike Thread
Bedlam and I had some spirited debate about potential suppression of technology in there. There are a number of ways a new idea or technology can be kept from the marketplace, many of which are not clandestine at all. Sneaky and underhanded, perhaps, but business as usual in many cases. I guess I'm just trying to say that there are a number of control mechanisms built into the system that could be utilized by would be progress poopers, in addition to the pitfalls of business as usual.

a reply to: Baddogma

Hehe. "Please sir, may I have another? Black Triangle ride, that is."

originally posted by: Jenisiz

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: Jenisiz

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: Jenisiz

originally posted by: tetra50
a reply to: Jenisiz

You know, there's a thread here called the Gimp Herders of Olympus, if you're so inclined, for you aren't the only one to react this way.

Other than that, wtf are you on about, really? So this person's "proof" contradicts your "proof," etc….what's your proof? I never saw a thread by you. Perhaps I'm altogether nether wards, IDK.

All I know is, before this thread, I never saw you, your avatar, etc. And then, out of the "woodwork," so to speak, here comes everyone…..with all their "serious and justified objections."

tetra

I have no proof of black triangles or exaggerated tales of exotic crafts because if I did, I would provide it openly and not cryptically...I was referring to these individuals who are providing jaded proofs 9 timetables then jump off the second the car ride gets bumpy. No different from Titor and all the others. Someone seeking attention and acceptance in their typically self loathing and lacking lives.

I have no proof of black triangles or exaggerated tales of exotic crafts because if I did, I would provide it openly and not cryptically...I was referring to these individuals who are providing jaded proofs 9 timetables then jump off the second the car ride gets bumpy.

How would you provide said "proof?, really" If you'd seen something like that, how exactly would you provide PROOF? See, this is the crux of the whole UFO reporting thing….Jenisez. Genisize. Sorry, I don't really like your name. I have to admit that. Just as I have to admit that what you're asking us all here for, is concrete proof of something anecdotal, which is the whole problem with UFO sightings.
Okay. But just before you started posting again, I have to say, that I, who am not usual to posting really fantastical claims after years on this board, have finally come out and said I've seen and been on a craft like this, that it was made of plasma, read: human energy, and that some of this story, in my limited experience is TRUE.

That this not named member contacted me via private message, bc, I think, he was aware I had that experience, and further gave information to me, that he knew I would find objectionable, and argue with……

I just think it's interesting you found that moment to start posting as to the voractity of this story, once again….
tetra

Because he knows who I am, I remained silent until the stroking of his ego began again. I am absolutely appalled at fallacies. Feeding on members experiences such as yours to boost their own mysticism among members in order to enhance their rather self imposed lacking life is deplorable at best. I can provide all my information so you can track back who I am. I held top secret clearance and worked as a gov contract for Applied Materials in nano fab and weapons divisions...I will openly discuss my projects and have no desire to hide or falsify anything. I just wish some members would shoe the same common curtosy. Is it hard to be a forum of honest individuals? How can we expect the government to be honest and practice disclosure when our fellow ats members can't...

Okay, I will give you that point. That makes sense to me, as you put it there.

What do we do now, is the problem? For he spoke.

That's the thing. I didn't, and I know others like me, who knew, who might be credible, didn't, either. Because we were afraid. Because we wouldn't be believed. Because we didn't even know what to make of or where in our minds and life experiences to file that experience….

I agree, if he was capitalizing off of, or robbing those of us who really did the experiencing…..but the point in larger print is, now that we've outed it, what the hell do we do with it? I've been remembering it for five years, and don't know wtf to do WITH IT……

I know what it means, more than most people probably do. But there isn't anything, I think, we can do about it, so I didn't speak….and I was afraid, for what I'd seen happen to so many others like me, who'd seen something and tried to speak about it….
tetra

That's the problem and why I spoke out. Individuals such as him are spreading bs and fear to the point you'll be ridiculed or believing you'll be "silenced" only hinders further advancement. With the fiver you display and details you provide, I've no doubt something happened to you. And it's sad you couldn't come out sooner but it's because of so many false stories and statements being pushed out that people are afraid to.

Wookiep - my post count and join date should speak volumes about who I am. I post when I have something meaningful to contribute, not to boost my ATS cred or stroke my ego. See the thing about forums is, everyone can be a pro with simple searching. If you like I'd be more than happy to PM you my linkedin information ...because unlike mr.x I'm not up to anything and believe that being honest, direct and thorough are the keys to making progress in regards to the UFO phenomenon. Instead of focusing on stories like tetra, we're stroking the ego of a liar whose still hanging around basking in this bs. I believe ATS members should hold ourselves to higher standards and would love it if members stuck to the - "it's better to be thought a fool then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt". Am I wrong to believe the government lies to people, but a forum based off of solidifying and uncovering the truth should not?

Thanks for remarking "Individuals such as him are spreading bs and fear to the point you'll be ridiculed or believing you'll be "silenced" only hinders further advancement." For all the aviation knowledge and credible posting the Zaph has contributed, he falls directly into your above characterization. 'External' sources of leaked aircraft crashes/mishaps unverified by the military/government but known by only a few 'insiders' is typical of his responses. The same old tired "you might as well walk into a prison" because you've outed the government on a conspiracy website is intellectual dishonest at its worst. It's a tired tactic.

And I am sure he (Zaph) has numerous stories of people 'disappearing' because they said the wrong thing on a conspiracy theory website....yet it's too dangerous to relay that information of those who may have disappeared. Or went to prison. Nevermind the compassionate, human thing to do to point out this miscarriage of injustice, so those that care for the 'disappeared' or 'imprisoned' may know the truth. Nope, it's better to perpetuate a myth of big brother silencing those 'in the know' and those 'in the know' only - from an altruistic and momma bear-mentality - divulging what they feel is proper for us to know.

Yep, that about sums it up. So if you are not 'in the know' and if you question what we know or how we know it, we just ridicule you by saying something along the lines of "I don't know about you, but I sure as heck will not go to prison just to satisfy your curiosity concerning the things I know that aren't meant for you to know".

originally posted by: mbkennel
a reply to: Baddogma

The breakaway civ & massive Orion drives don't make sense to me.

As far as being "perfectly feasible", that's an enormous stretch of the definition of "feasible". It's feasible the way a tunnel from NY to London is.

The economic & industrial footprint to make such craft would be enormous. Consider that each one would have to be at least a kilometer in length and hence assembled in orbit. What's that, 40-50 launches of heavy lift vehicles?

What's the radiation exposure to crew? It's already very high outside the Earth's atmosphere & magnetosphere, and now you're blowing up a few hundred neutron bombs right next to you.

The Orion engineers seemed to think the exposure managable...

How do hundreds of nuclear explosive devices "go missing"? People keep track of these things pretty carefully. Presumably LANL or LLNL would have to be designing particular devices and refining & testing them as the requirements are quite different. Where's the evidence? Even if details of warheads are classified, the rough identity of the requirements aren't and are known from DOE documents.

If you owned the mine I'd imagine you could make some of that ore disappear. Another possibility is that the ore was mined from undocumented sites.


As to payload delivery, I agree that is was unlikely at best that these payloads would have been piggybacked on public launches. I don't see why a clandestine launch system wouldn't have worked, though. Pick the right location...we didn't have the sattelite coverage of the globe that we do today, and neither did anyone that we wouldn't have wanted espying our efforts.

As to the design and manufacturing of nuclear fuels, just have a compartmentalized lab. If your funding is private or clandestinely generated, it would never appear in the budget in the first place. Heck, how do we know the things don't run on spent fuel rods? We sure seem to have plenty of those laying around, and have had them laying around in some quantity for decades now...

Thanks for remarking "Individuals such as him are spreading bs and fear to the point you'll be ridiculed or believing you'll be "silenced" only hinders further advancement." For all the aviation knowledge and credible posting the Zaph has contributed, he falls directly into your above characterization. 'External' sources of leaked aircraft crashes/mishaps unverified by the military/government but known by only a few 'insiders' is typical of his responses. The same old tired "you might as well walk into a prison" because you've outed the government on a conspiracy website is intellectual dishonest at its worst. It's a tired tactic.

And I am sure he (Zaph) has numerous stories of people 'disappearing' because they said the wrong thing on a conspiracy theory website....yet it's too dangerous to relay that information of those who may have disappeared. Or went to prison. Nevermind the compassionate, human thing to do to point out this miscarriage of injustice, so those that care for the 'disappeared' or 'imprisoned' may know the truth. Nope, it's better to perpetuate a myth of big brother silencing those 'in the know' and those 'in the know' only - from an altruistic and momma bear-mentality - divulging what they feel is proper for us to know.

Yep, that about sums it up. So if you are not 'in the know' and if you question what we know or how we know it, we just ridicule you by saying something along the lines of "I don't know about you, but I sure as heck will not go to prison just to satisfy your curiosity concerning the things I know that aren't meant for you to know".

Why, I wonder though, do they call spooks spooks? Perhaps because they tend to get people spooked, sometimes? Why would you say someone got spooked? I dunno, seems like there might be something to this idea that if you say the wrong thing you might get the wrong people's attention, and that that attention might be, shall we say, undesirable.

I am often that guy, who says the things others are thinking but are afraid to mention, and I can tell you from personal experience that it can earn you some unwanted attention from time to time. Not that I think that we are running that risk here. I think if there is official attention being paid to this topic, it is simply to see how the tale is being interpreted. Can you hear me in the back?

I think that you are right about Zaph's being overly cryptic being unnecessary, but can you blame him? The guy eats, drinks, and sleeps military projects on this board...perhaps he's just gotten a little bit "spooked". Unexpected visitors showing up in your home at odd hours could do that to a fellow, I'd imagine...

a reply to: Arpad

well alchohol is a depressant and that relaxes the muscles and reduces cognition. The brain is easier to control when its not swimming in alchohol. In other words the alchohol is taking the place in the receptors in the brain that the control normally would.

That is the only way it could be stopping them from controlling a persons body.And really we do have that ability to do that now. they have been posted here on ATS before.

a reply to: engineercutout

I agree... there are multiple ways to keep stuff secret.