Hernando's Hideaway. Another Thread "almost certainly not for you."

a reply to: guohua

I am doing well. Thank you.

I hope both of you are doing well too?

Unfortunately we are surrounded by far too many people that do indeed, expect to tell us when we don't understand something or when we should/shouldn't be offended by something. The whole PC movement is too far out of control. Sometimes the only thing you can do for your own sanity is walk away from the ignorance.

You tried. And that's honorable indeed.

a reply to: DISRAELI

DISRAELI, have a little mercy. I'm "a bear of very little brain."

All right, I agree with the distinction you've described in "antidisestablishmentarianism," and I'm kicking myself for not seeing it earlier. Ah, the folly of a wasted youth.

As Orwell dramatically reminded us, the words we have available are the limits of the thoughts we are able to have. Even our basic vocabulary is becoming vague, nearly misty, and seems only to be used to trigger the emotions deemed useful at a given moment.

Of course, the schools are a major battleground, but teachers can't give to their students what they don't have themselves. Precisely defined words, the virtues of a good citizen (or even a good person), an appreciation for literature, art, or philosophy are absent in schools because the teachers don't have them to bring to the education of the young.

Can we find clear thought and reason in our nation's leaders? (I threw that in for the comedy value.)

Do we have a path to mental health, or is this a clear symptom of the collapse of "Rome?"

a reply to: charles1952
I don't find it easy to see any grounds for hope.
For one thing, so much culture depends on reading, and the new generation is rapidly giving up reading.
One of the symptoms is the way "spell as you pronounce" is taking over from conventional spelling. These are people who spell "can't" as "can", presumably because that's the lazy way they pronounce it, and it doesn't even occur to them that this might be confusing. And I asssume there's a region in America where "man" is pronounced as "mang".
I suspect that young people are picking up most of their language usage from their peers, so I don't know that even good schools could do much against the tide.

originally posted by: adjensen
I really expected more of a reaction to my thread this morning…

Christians: Is it okay to lie for Christ?

I got the usual atheists who follow me around to say "you're an idiot", but few Fundies to argue with me and no Catholics to support me.

Where's the nepotistic love?

I saw that thread and kept myself out of it.

I have no major beef with Catholics although I mistrust the Catholic Church as an organization. I sort of view it as something of the original mega-church. Don't get me wrong. It didn't start out that way, but especially as it went through the medieval period where it because a dumping ground for extra noble sons and daughters and their pathway to power ... it kind of transformed into a large bureaucratic power structure as much as a religious institution, and I'm not sure it's ever quite gotten all the way back.

None of that changes the reality that there are numerous Catholics who do very fine things and are very devout. My best friend from college is one such and there are many, many others, current company included, but I just don't think the Church has ever or will ever be able to fully exorcise all its demons, so to speak.

So I stay out such things.

a reply to: DISRAELI

They are indeed taught to spell phonetically, and then no one teaches phonics anymore. I guess it's too hard or racist or something like that.



It's one of the reasons we're going to live in penury for most of our adult lives so we can put our through a private school - they actually teach phonics among other things.

a reply to: ketsuko

Hi there, young lady. I'm glad you're comfortable enough in Hernando's to venture a comment on religion.

but I just don't think the Church has ever or will ever be able to fully exorcise all its demons, so to speak.

Are you surprised that I agree with you? I don't happen to know which type of language you're most comfortable with, but I believe there are good and evil forces who have the ability to influence events on earth. If you want to call them angels and demons, it's fine by me.

I'm pretty well convinced that the demons want to make as much trouble as they can, whether it's despair, pain and suffering, hatred and violence, betrayal, whatever. The way to do that is to influence people. I'm not surprised that the demons target leaders and serious believers on the other (or angel's) side.

They are able to pick off some on a fairly regular basis, we're just human and each side has those who desert to the other side. The Church will always be scarred by priests and others who have deserted to evil. Those desertions are very likely to continue. Every army has deserters, but the army perseveres.

Actually, every group has it's deserters. Political parties, sports teams, charitable groups, any group will find someone who breaks ranks and goes against the purpose of the group.

You don't have to stay out of these things, at least at Hernando's. It's disgusting and painful when a priest goes bad. It's a big celebration when a person with an evil background turns his life around and decides to play with the angels. Hating evil and loving good is something we all can (and should) do.

Mrs. Guohua! Nobody seems to carry Harbin beer anywhere near me. I think I'm required to buy a case. But that's a huge investment. Do you and Mr. G. both agree that Harbin's is the Cat's Pajamas, the Bee's Knees? They go for about $32 plus tax for a case.

Mrs. Guohua! Nobody seems to carry Harbin beer anywhere near me. I think I'm required to buy a case. But that's a huge investment. Do you and Mr. G. both agree that Harbin's is the Cat's Pajamas, the Bee's Knees? They go for about $32 plus tax for a case.

a reply to: charles1952

WoW!!! No,,,, I can buy it here at the Chinese Cultural Center by the six packs.
It's imported form Harbin, China and you do pay more than for a six pack of Bud or other Camel Piss.
But it is a very Good beer.
It's $9.90 a six pack here.

Try this tool
Find Harbin Beer

a reply to: guohua

Are we talking about the same thing? Here, Harbin is $8 a six-pack (plus whatever the tax is). That's why I thought a case (of 24) would be $32.

But if it's two dollars less a six pack here, it might be worth the 1700 mile trip (one way) to stock up. Besides, think of all the ATSers you could meet.

Let me see. 3400 miles. You probably get 30 MPG on the freeway, that's about 113 gallons. Figure $3.50 per gallon of gas. That's a few pennies under $400 for gas. If you save $2 a six pack, you could break even on gas if you brought back 200 six packs.

When should I expect you?

a reply to: charles1952

Well, my problem with the thread in question was that I know perfectly well my feelings on the Catholic Church which I described to some extent, and I also know my feelings on the sort of person who would do what adjenson is talking about. They absolutely exist, too.

In the most basic terms, no one should lie to advance their faith. My question is: Was this a lie? I mean, obviously the picture of the statue isn't what it was presented as, so at some point, someone either lied or got something wrong out of ignorance. Do we know for sure which it is?

I know it's been thrown around, here, and elsewhere that most, if not all, of Christian symbology and the rest is just a renaming of older mythologies "modernized" and "borrowed" to fit a new sensibility. It seems to me that this could easily be a facet of that, and if someone's shoddy work got out and picked up as authentic, it could make the rounds as true without being that way. I guess this is all a roundabout way of saying ... do we know who made that image first?

Again, I have no qualms believing some overly zealous type could have easily done so. There are some really obnoxious folks running around who think they're being Godly, but if we don't know for sure, shouldn't we be careful when, where and how we ascribe blame?

For all I know at the moment, this is equivalent to the NFL head injury study which came from one guy who, when challenged, couldn't produce the actual data to back up his claims. Yet now, everyone quotes his claims as the truth and fact because he got picked up by one legitimate source and everyone ran with that source assuming it had done due diligence.

And that's not to accuse adjenson of lying, either, because I'm not. I'm just saying I don't think I know enough to really say anything one way or other beyond:

Of course, lying is not acceptable.

a reply to: ketsuko

Thanks for your reply, my dear ketsuko.

There is definitely deceit in the OP of that thread. Someone made a conscious choice along the way to intentionally misrepresent Catholic beliefs. I'm open to the idea that it may not be a Protestant, it may have been an anti-theist who hates the idea of Christianity and doesn't mind lying to support their cause.

But I posted that to generate discussion of whether it is okay to lie to further one's Christian beliefs, because there are those on ATS (not naming names) who do that very thing -- post anti-Catholic rubbish because they think it supports their beliefs, even though a complete moron with a Second Grade education could see through it.

I noticed that none of them have weighed in on the thread…

a reply to: adjensen

Well, as to that, I didn't mean to imply that I think Catholicism has substituted Mary for Semiramis. If there is any misplaced faith in Catholicism, I think it's in the hearts of individuals who misplace their devotion, putting too much of it into the persons of individual saints or Mary herself. I know that isn't the intent of the veneration of the Catholic Church, but I'm guessing there are those who mistake the intent, but that's between them and God.

However, IMO that's not a whole lot different than those who place celebrities or sports teams in God's place, and we all know those people exist. I think in the end God sees it the same - You put the wrong things in His place in your life.

What I was concentrating on was simply the use of the statue picture and calling it an ancient picture of Semiramis when it was really a picture of Mary and Jesus in a German church. Did the person who was misrepresenting Catholicism know they were using a picture that had the wrong attribution or had they simply copied it off the world wild web in ignorance of what it really was?

No, they definitely shouldn't have misrepresented Catholic belief. I guess I've just gotten so used to seeing those kinds of arguments being made here all the kind that I skipped right past that part and discarded it out of hand as too silly to be entertained.

a reply to: ketsuko

Hi, again, ketsuko. I like the way you're thinking. Need a beer? Anyway, I think your best question is this one:

I mean, obviously the picture of the statue isn't what it was presented as, so at some point, someone either lied or got something wrong out of ignorance. Do we know for sure which it is?

I don't think it's as easy to answer as I first thought, but how does this sound to you?

Let's call the person who stuck the wrong labels on the picture, Mr. Wilberforce L. Bartholomew. (Known to his friends as "Bertie." I'm tired of calling people Mr. X.) Where did Bertie get the picture? Did he take it himself? If so, he knows the labels are wrong, so he's lying.

Did Bertie get the photo from a book? Well, published books with photos describe the photo in some way, either in the accompanying text, or a photo credit somewhere in the book. I take it as a given that a publishing house wouldn't make that mistake, that's why they have editors, etc.

But, is there the slightest, tiniest, teeny-weenyest chance that the publishers made a mistake? Well, anything's possible. But what are the odds? 99-1? 999-1 is more like it from my understanding. Even if we grant that, adjensen pointed out within the thread that the statue doesn't look anything like 4000 years old, and anyone with any interest in the topic would have noticed that instantly.

That leaves me thinking that the publisher had to make a mistake, and the labels of Semiramis and whoever were put on by someone who didn't really know anything about the subject. I can't find any other explanation for honest error. Frankly, I don't believe it.

BUT YOU DID CHANGE MY MIND. I didn't think there was even the possibility that a case could be made for honest error, and I see that I'm wrong.

Thanks ketsuko. I really appreciate that contribution.

Now, the people in the thread? They're nuts.

a reply to: charles1952

I'd like to say there is no chance an editor makes a mistake, but ... seeing as how I am one.



Yeah, we do get things wrong on occasion, but I am thinking that obviously, someone intentionally got it wrong at some point. So someone likely made the original lie, but my wonder is if it's the person adjenson got it from or if that person simply found it somewhere on some website and thought it looked legit and didn't check it out because they so wanted to believe it WAS legit ... and who knows how far along the chain from the original source it might have been at the source they got it from ...

And it very well could have been that adjenson got it straight from the horse's mouth, too. That's the problem with the Internet. It's hard to know for sure.

And make no mistake - I am in no way absolving them for furthering the argument itself. That's just plain silly. We have enough problems as Christians without fighting each other.

Another thing to consider is that it's really stupid as a Christian to run around trying to convince people that Catholicism is actually some kind of Babylonian religion because if Catholic Christian are based on ancient Babylonian religion ... then on what basis do you separate yourself seeing as how you have all the same figures in your own religion?

Protestants still have Jesus and Mary as central figures in our own right.

This would just undermine our own religious beliefs in the end.

a reply to: ketsuko

You raise another good point. It is a tragedy and a shame that God the Father, Jesus, Mary, and the Holy Spirit aren't seen as important enough, deep enough, for all Christians to immerse themselves in.

Child abuse is one person going bad. This kind of fighting among Christians brings entire denominations into disrepute, drives people from Christ, and even makes Jesus less believable as the founder of a Church.

What kind of crazy is involved in being asked "What kind of Christian are you? Are you a real one, believing all the same things I do, or are you damned to Hell?" That kind of "Christianity" leaves me speechless. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. There's almost nothing more sacred on earth. And we fight with each other?

If I try to say anything more about it, I'll sound incoherent.

a reply to: charles1952

WoW, That is Cheaper, But we'd have to bring my Prius, that's minimum 47 MPG.
My husband would want to bring his truck and fill the bed full of cases, but his truck only gets on a good day, 15 MPG, then his other idea would be, Yes, I can here him now,,,,, " Baby we could pull the 5th wheel out and visit and Stock Up all at the same time, we could stay at lest a month,,,,"
No, No, No, pulling the 5th wheel we get 8 to 10 MPG at BEST!
So that's not Happening For $2.00 off on beer!!!

Sorry, Dear Husband, But that's not going to Happen and you know Who Really Rules this Roost!

a reply to: guohua

I feel as though I've just watched an episode of the (imaginary) reality show, East Meets West: Can two cultures create a smoothly working household?

Ummmm, I thought Roosters ruled the roost. Don't men make the rules and then the women obey them? Why are you picking up that skillet? You're not going to throw it are you? OUCH! What did you do that for?

I have to ask the liquor store if they have a six pack available for me, but I'll also ask them if they could get some cases to Phoenix. With the shipping costs and all, I can probably save you three cents a bottle. Unless your tax is higher, then forget the whole thing.

Of course you could stay for a month, the Northern US is wonderful in, say, February. I know how much you would enjoy walking in three feet of freshly fallen snow. It will be a treat for you. You might even see it warm up to minus 10 degrees Fahrenheit (about -23 for you Celsius fans), now that would be a treat.

Whoaaa! I think I have a musical contribution for this thread. I know that Eastern music is substantially different from Western music, but this is far from either of them. I know it is human music, but I would completely believe that it was recorded coming from space.

@ ketsuko and @ adjensen and @ charles1952

Religion, WoW , I have an idea of why my husband calls all religion, Mans Big Lie.

He knows the Bible, he Really does, I was told my his Father, the thing that sadden him most in life was his son did not full-fill his calling.
The way my Husband Father told me, when my husband was 12 years old, God spoke to his Mother during a Sunday night prayer meeting, and she got up and spoke in Tongues, ( I think that's what Father said was the Language of God ) and the Pastor of the little Pentecostal Church, Interpreted the Tongues and it said that My Husband was Call to do the Lords Work as a Minister to the people.
( Question, do any of you believe in these Speaking in Tongues? )
So, as you can imagine, my husband was taught the Bible and read the Bible and was Tested on the Bible and at 14 and 15 was giving Sermons and Baptizing people and they had him ready for a Religious University and everything.
I was told that my husband main understanding of all the Bible was Revelations.
( He wanted the books of Something I can't remember. But those books where left out on Purpose I heard once. )
Now I know you all understand this, I don't.

My husband dropped out of H/S and joined the Army and spent two tours in Vietnam.
I was told he hasn't attended Church or read the Bible sense.

a reply to: charles1952
Ohhhh, Our tax here Suck's 9.9 % mostly.
Phoenix is an Expensive place to live.

You want to know about cold, Here is a picture of our Swimming Pool in my home city of Harbin.



Then you have the Winter Ice Festival, The City of Ice and Lights.
Yes, made from blocks of ice there in my city.

Harbin Ice