Hernando's Hideaway. Another Thread "almost certainly not for you."

Dear ATSers,

I really liked my first thread which was "almost certainly not for you." This one is not poetic or allegorical at all, but still, there are very many people for whom this thread will be repugnant. All are welcome, but many will not feel welcome.

Hernando's Hideaway? If you're as old as I am, you might have heard that slow tango advertising a place (in Iowa, as it turns out) which was a home for alcohol and prostitution. Surprise! That's not what I'm promoting here.

Wiki has a second reference.

"Hernando's Hideaway" also became a nickname for the smoking room for British parliamentarians in the House of Commons. The Labour Member of Parliament, Stephen Pound, told the House during a smoking debate on February 14, 2006: "I refer the House to the dystopic hell – 'Hernando's Hideaway' – that is the Smoking Room on the Library Corridor. It is like the Raft of the Medusa most nights, with great groups of people crammed into it."

THAT's more like it. (Although "Dystopic hell is a bit redundant.)

Our Hernando's Hideaway doesn't rely on imposing rules, rather it hopes to attract the type of people who already have the rules imprinted on their hearts.

1.) The care for a fellow Hernando is far more important than winning a debate, or even a war. People who are willing to treat people as less than human in order to gain some advantage, are less than human themselves and not fit to join with us.

1. a.) All people are fallible, cut your brother or sister some slack.

2.) Reason can lead to truth. Reason should not be used to attain victory or the humiliation of another Hernando. We are helping each other to truth and knowledge.

3.) Getting angry at an Hernando means something has gone wrong. A break from the keyboard is suggested.

4.) Hernandos try to get information and understanding before they say something is definitely true or false.

4. a.) We will never have 100% complete scientific proof. It is perfectly acceptable to present an opinion based on what information is available, as long as there is a willingness to change when better information is presented. It is perfectly acceptable to say, "Blast! I don't know nearly enough. Let's take this up a week from now."

4. b.) Evaluate the information. Do not reject anything solely because of the source, but it can be considered.

5.) There is nothing wrong with saying "This is as close to agreement as we can get. Let's set it aside for now."

Why bother with this? Because of two themes in ATS. One is that we are a family. Not a dysfunctional one, but one in which we care, at least slightly, for each other. Two, is that we deny ignorance. Expressed positively, we search for truth. Yelling at one another doesn't further either goal.

"OK, got it, now what?"

"Easy, we talk."

The search for truth in congenial surroundings is the topic of this thread. You can't go off topic if that is what you are doing, and doing it with respect.

May I suggest that because of the format limitations, we stick with one or two subjects at a time, but, really, wherever you feel we need to search for truth, and whenever, contribute.

There are short-term topics like Ferguson and long-term topics like the Creation.

What is human life? How do we find true information? Is the West dying? Is it moral for a nation to use violence in certain situations? What are they? Have they changed in the last 50 years? What does the Russian activity in Ukraine mean for international law and balances of power? Is Islam a different civilization, or just a religion with a few minor differences.

I honestly believe that answering these questions will lead us to an understanding of some definite truths about humanity. At Hernando's Hideaway we may find bits of truth and weave them to form a true humanity.

What questions to start with? Up to you, but may I suggest "What is the importance of man compared with nature?" "Can torture be used to advance a cause?" Or, "What is the purpose of the government?"

Alternatives? "Why is Justin Bieber so widely hated?" "Why do people go to movies at $10 a ticket?" "How can men and women understand each other, or even just get along?" Or, "Is doom porn as addictive as the other kind, and is there a cure?

I don't think the direction matters as much as getting started.

With respect for those to whom this thread is addressed,

Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

You Sir...are a genius

ETA
I would like to start with "how can men and women understand each other or even just get along"?
By my request of such a topic...it also lets you know that I read the whole post...

a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

Dear ThePublicEnemyNo1,

Thanks, but that's not really the best start to truth, is it. Even my mini-profile says I'm just a guy. How can you argue with that?

I wonder, now that you've brought it up, what a "genius" is. I've heard of musicians who are geniuses, and actors, and all sorts of other specialists. Does a genius have to be a generalist? How rare is a genius? The "best" one out of 50? (That's what Mensa looks for), the "greatest of a generation?"

Do people want to be geniuses? Do geniuses want to be normal people?

See what happens when I take the leash off my mind?

Say, do you come here often? Can I buy you a drink? Want to be a Hernando? (Leer)

With respect,
Charles1952

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

Dear ThePublicEnemyNo1,

Thanks, but that's not really the best start to truth, is it. Even my mini-profile says I'm just a guy. How can you argue with that?

I wonder, now that you've brought it up, what a "genius" is. I've heard of musicians who are geniuses, and actors, and all sorts of other specialists. Does a genius have to be a generalist? How rare is a genius? The "best" one out of 50? (That's what Mensa looks for), the "greatest of a generation?"

Do people want to be geniuses? Do geniuses want to be normal people?

See what happens when I take the leash off my mind?

Say, do you come here often? Can I buy you a drink? Want to be a Hernando? (Leer)

With respect,
Charles1952

Hmmm...let's start with yes, you may buy me a drink.

I can only tell you what a genius is to me. I think a genius is anyone who is willing to speak, then listen and then respectfully reply. Maybe not in that order however (it can be maddening can't it?). Whether by agreeing or disagreeing...this part does not matter because a line of communication has been opened. That's a start and a positive one. Most people can not achieve this.

This is also one of the many ways that men and women can get along and understand one another...via their listeners, the things we have have attached to our heads. Then by processing that information however one may be capable via our brain to offer up a response. One such as yours.

a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

dear ThePublicEnemyNo1,

To reply to your edited post, my first opinion is that they cannot. I can't prove it of course, but I'm looking at some of the incidents of my own life and the reactions of some women (I presume) on ATS. Some examples:

When a man asks his wife, "Honey, can I go golfing today?" And she says, "Oh, fine." She really means that if he does, he'll have his putter rammed down his throat.

On ATS, get into a discussion on rape or abortion, and the people who go ballistic are the women. (OK, I know it's personal to them. I can also see it's an emotional issue, but some female brains seem to shut down.)

Women will say, "Put that in to that thing, and put it up there." Men will say, "Put the green cup in the blue bowl and put it on the left side of the second shelf."

Years and years ago (I blush at how many), I was in bed in total darkness with a woman. She said "Could you rub my leg?" I said, "Sure, which one?" I heard a voice out of complete darkness say, "That one."

It doesn't look hopeful.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

Dear ThePublicEnemyNo1,

Your explanation of your understanding of "genius" made me a little sad. No, there's nothing wrong with it or you, but that seems to mean we're in pretty tough shape as a species. Or perhaps it's just ATSers? Or Americans? Or Westerners? Or, heaven forbid, the entire world.

I think a genius is anyone who is willing to speak, then listen and then respectfully reply. Maybe not in that order however (it can be maddening can't it?). Whether by agreeing or disagreeing...this part does not matter because a line of communication has been opened. That's a start and a positive one. Most people can not achieve this.

I place a huge value on the individual. (Yeah, sometimes I lose it, but I apologize.) The idea that it's rare to have a respectful communication is what I find to be sad.

Everybody here knows things I don't. They probably all think differently. How can I aid them, how can they aid me, with out honest discussion? How do we learn without sharing knowledge? What a waste screaming is.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

Well, I can understand that. I as a woman was always telling my better half that "I'm not a mind reader ya know". Meaning, if you want something...tell me. Don't expect me to just assume I know what you mean. We've manage to wrinkle out the past 22 years.

He gets it now. I try not to assume anything if given an option. Primarily if you have to assume, you've most certainly been given an option instead of the straightforward approach. If given the straight and narrow, there's no need to assume.

Every now and again I am guilty of not being straightforward...however rarely. I was raised by my father who was a Green Beret and extremely straightforward, so being indecisive in my family was pretty much not allowed. It is possible yet difficult. I think luck played a part in me being able to come across as a straightforward individual. Many times I use no tact what so ever. My point on the other hand, more often than not is completely understood.

I've heard how women think. I know a few...lol! I don't think with emotion most of the time. At least not on first thought. I've been accused of being insensitive, verbally tactless and brash.

Oh well

a reply to: charles1952

I don't find it at all rare to have a respectful conversation...just like we're doing right now. I think that the lack of respect during a conversation is the problem. A huge problem at that and a huge part of a larger problem involving communication.

If we can't all listen and respond without the hoo rah, then what do we have? Just a bunch of rah...rah...blah...blah. With nothing being listened to. Just everyone of us listening to ourselves over and over again.

That's why I think that anyone that can communicate "respectfully", whether they agree or disagree is a genius. Most people nowadays can not or will not do that unless their point is acknowledged as the gospel.

a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

Dear ThePublicEnemyNo1,

???? You mean not all women are alike??? How am I to make sweeping generalizations, then?

But all right, I believe you. How does a man know what type of woman he's dealing with? If there is a long courtship or engagement (I know, unheard of), he might get a clue, but what does he do in the meantime? How does he avoid blowing things in the first three months?

Does he open the door and pull out her chair? I've walked on eggshells over that dilemma. Once I went by her shoes. If all women are different, what does feminism mean?

Does she get to pick the movie? If so, I'm reasonably sure I'll have trouble with it. How can women be in love with Oprah? I watched part of two episodes?

Not only don't I fail to understand women, I fail to understand the entire problem.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

Mt Dear Friend charles1952, How are you feeling, how's your Headache? I hope you're much better my friend, your presence here is so valuable.
I see you talking with another Good Friend, ThePublicEnemyNo1 , she's such a joy to talk to also.

As for your thread, I have to say, when it comes to the G W crowd, I have to practice #3. & #4 a.
They'll never be right of-course,,,,,,, LoL,,,,,,

originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

Dear ThePublicEnemyNo1,

???? You mean not all women are alike??? How am I to make sweeping generalizations, then?

But all right, I believe you. How does a man know what type of woman he's dealing with? If there is a long courtship or engagement (I know, unheard of), he might get a clue, but what does he do in the meantime? How does he avoid blowing things in the first three months?

Does he open the door and pull out her chair? I've walked on eggshells over that dilemma. Once I went by her shoes. If all women are different, what does feminism mean?

Does she get to pick the movie? If so, I'm reasonably sure I'll have trouble with it. How can women be in love with Oprah? I watched part of two episodes?

Not only don't I fail to understand women, I fail to understand the entire problem.

With respect,
Charles1952

You certainly made no sweeping generalizations. I did...lol. In the first three months? Wow! That's in my opinion a very short time to get to know anyone in an intimate way (no sexual reference here). Just my experience, my better half and I ( who I refer to as my husband of 22 years though we're not "legally" married) went through hell the first year and a half. Reason being because, he thought he knew women and I had a totally invisible reinforced stainless steel cage around me. Once, I got rid of the box and he realized that he did not only know me but was failing to "attempt" to understand me things quickly got better. So, what it took for us was practice and wanting to understand each other which eventually lead to love. We already had the "like factor" going for us. So that was a plus to say the least.

I highly respect this man now and I hope he feels the same about me. I'm pretty sure he does as I have no reason to doubt his words or actions. So, this all goes back to respect if you will, in my opinion. I was always taught by my grandmother born in 1907 who practically raised me alongside her son (my Dad). She always told me, "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Others Do Unto You'. On the other hand, I had my Dad telling me "Trust no one and be careful". You can pretty much guess it took me almost 2 decades to mend them both together to my liking and to my understanding.

Anyway, I'm a firm believer in respect and benefit of the doubt. In other words, you got one time to cross me and that's it. I will respect you and be there for you, but when it's obvious the feeling isn't mutual, you're done as far as I'm concerned. That sounds unfair right? To me it's not. If the person I'm building a relationship with can't understand that about me or life...then I don't need them in my life. Every soul is not a gracious soul and some will never get goodness nor understanding. I don't waste my time with that.

With all that being said, if you've tried and tried with all your heart (and that's twice) then what do you do? Me, I would remain friendly but end any further intimate attempts (I don't mean sexual either). I"m not going to waste my days away waiting on someone to get me. Either you do or you don't. No harm no foul.

Always pull out her chair...no matter what. That's just what a gentleman does. At least that's how I was raised.

I have no complete understanding of what feminism means. Did I spell that right...lol! I think I understand it, or at one point in time I did, but now, I'm lost. I gave up ten years ago on that one.

Sure she can pick a movie, but so can you.

Oprah...bahhhhhhh!!!! I know who she is, but I've never watched her. All that woman book club gang is nothing but crap to me and I don't like it. I respect her achievements, don't get me wrong. But will I watch her show. Nope...not interested in what other people think of so and so or what I should be reading.

I don't even think there's a problem between men and women. I just think we've been told there was therefore we create them.

a reply to: guohua

Hey you...nice to see you in here.

Why don't cha' stick around awhile

a reply to: guohua

Dear guohua,

Welcome to Hernando's! I'm really glad to see you! I see you know ThePublicEnemyNo1, pull up a chair and we'll get you some beer, cola, tea, whatever you'd like. Oh, and make sure to invite Mr. guohua. I hope he knows of my respect for him.

A couple of comments. This place is already feeling friendly and comfortable, thank you both for coming in. There will be a time, however, when people who have no intention of ever being Hernandos will drop by. I have heard that starving the troublemakers hungry for attention may be best.

Have you advice for the problem of intersex understanding? Perhaps it's best that there isn't full understanding and we shouldn't try for it.

Hey, this is an open and free-wheeling club. I have no objection to looking at global warming (or climate change, or climate disruption) shall we run two topics at a time, or stick with men and women for a bit?

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952
My Friends charles1952, & ThePublicEnemyNo1 We'd better stick with men and women,,, I think I understand my husband better than myself most times!

Oh, and make sure to invite Mr. guohua. I hope he knows of my respect for him.

a reply to: charles1952

He say's Thank You, but he has a Very Deep Respect for you, he has followed your post for a very long time the same as I have.
He's setting next to me having a Spiced Rum & Coke, I'm having Tea thank you,

I truly believe we need an understanding of what your talking about, inter-sex, let's not be like China and shove every thing in a Closet and ignore it.

a reply to: ThePublicEnemyNo1

Dear ThePublicEnemyNo1,

That's fascinating stuff. Do you think that the man (and maybe the woman) fails to dedicate himself completely to the woman? Not as a slave, but that he puts her highest good as his constant goal?

(For those of you keeping score at home, I think we're closing in on a Truth.)

That seems to me to be a pretty good definition of love. In the Old Testament, the man is told to have his wife as his highest concern, even to sacrificing his life for her. Granted, that doesn't happen much now, but it seems to toss the concept of 50 - 50 relationships away in favor of 100 - 100.

With respect,
Charles1952

By the way, it's almost 3 a.m. here. I know you ladies can handle yourselves, but would you mind if I grabbed some pills and took a shower? I'd love to live here, but I can't. - C -

I'll tell the bartender to keep your glasses filled. Oh, and in Hernando's, you can call me Charles. No need for formality among friends.

a reply to: charles1952

Good Night My friend, Please get some good rest and sleep knowing were here watching over you

a reply to: charles1952

Yes, I think not all, but more than enough men are not willing to look at the woman they "say" love the way you described. This is one of the foremost reason I love my other admirably, because I know by his actions that he has and will do "almost" anything for me. He has sacrificed for me and for that he has my undying love and admiration.

You are a gem and I know you get it.

I have just made a great new friend on ATS and I thank you.


Goodnight

Advice for intersex understanding??

I am far from the sharpest tool in the shed. I have no higher education, I am not cultured, worldly, or any of the other words people use to describe those they seek valuable advice from... But this is the internet, so I get to play anyway.



Somewhere along the way both sexes have come to the conclusion that we need to exist together like peanut butter and jelly, like kool aid and sugar, and corn dogs with mustard. We have been fooled into thinking that our differences need to be fixed and that if we fight... our fairytale must be dead.

I don't believe in any of those. I would use yin and yang here. We should compliment one another and balance each other out IMO. how boring would life be if we had spouses that mirrored our every thought and action to the point that all of the mystery is gone forever??

Some people will naturally have more understanding of their partners than others and that's just as acceptable as the partners who may feel they have less.

All of us, regardless of sex fail to even understand ourselves at times if we are honest. How then can we expect others to have infallible understanding of us? That's asking too much of anyone.

I would also argue that there is already much understanding as shown in your post about the wife telling her husband that he can go golfing all the while meaning something completely different with her thoughts. You understand this without being told. You may not like the mixed signal.... But you understand it nonetheless.

I think all of us do this and confuse understanding with dislike. We understand when our partner gives us that look when it's time to go. We don't have to ask. We may be pissed off that they are not coming right out and saying what they want BUT (again) we understand it. We understand when we get answers of "whatever", "nothing's wrong", "I'm ok", etc. without having to ask. We do not like hearing one thing while knowing they mean another BUT we understand what they are conveying anyway.

So I think that is your answer... We do have understanding between the sexes, but are displeased by the way each of us communicates it.

How much more understanding does it take to know that when your wife says nothing is wrong in that particular pitch of voice.... you just KNOW that all hell is going to break loose the very next time you two get more than 5 minutes alone??

That's what I would call understanding almost to the point of actually reading one's mind.

And you could always just find the women and men that say what they mean and mean what they say. They still exist in both genders. Being able to understand both types makes you bilingual.

I know that I have rambled terribly. I'm currently taking some heavy duty pain medicine and feel like I can't quite get my point across, but have repeated myself too many times.... so I hope this is at least somewhat understandable. And that I have communicated my thoughts clearly enough to make a bit of sense. If not... I'll fix it tomorrow. Apologies beforehand if that's the case.

Just dropped in for a drink and cigar .. though nearly fled in sheer terror over the discussion on intersex communications .. still trying to find a translation app to translate woman speak .. no luck locating a reliable translator ..