Ukrainian Su-25 warplane detected heading toward Malaysian Boeing

a reply to: demus

How many days later?

I tell you what: just watched a Channel 4 Dispatches regarding this tragic incident and the behaviour of the separatists and the self-proclaimed rebel leader is nothing more than disgusting. They clearly realised what they did from the get-go and watching them turn people's luggage inside out, remove the Black Box, leave bodies strewn across fields without any attempt to protect the crime scene and generally behave in an abhorrent way, angers me no end.

There is no conspiracy here.

Edit: and Putin knows it. This unfortunate incident may bring this whole nonsense to an abrupt halt. Indirectly, Putin has blood on his hands and the behaviour of the separatists demonstrate a complete lack of intelligence and honour even under the banner of 'war'.

1. Ukraine said they had no fighter jets in the air at the time. LIE

Irrelevant evidence, FACT

2. At first it was said Ukraine didn't possess the BUK. LIE

Every Intel agency has known that Ukraine has the BUK, but so do the rebels (You know, those guys that switched sides?) FACT

3. The youtube video purporting to show a BUK launcher in rebel territory was actually a BUK missile in territory Kiev has controlled since May.

In a civil war, there really is no controlled territory. FACT

4. The youtube video created to frame the rebels was made the day before the plane crashed.

That has been debunked, whether you believe it or not. FACT

5. Not only does the Ukraine possess the BUK. It was operational and deployed in the area the plane was shot down.

Ukraine has admitted so, hmmm, so being honest equates to guilt in this case?

As for the rest, you will not see any serious evidence put forth until a air-tight case is sealed. But I doubt you would even believe that, even if it was Ukrainian forces that downed the aircraft and admitted such.

originally posted by: TDawgRex
1. Ukraine said they had no fighter jets in the air at the time. LIE

Irrelevant evidence, FACT

Irrelevant? The accusers have been deceptive shows grounds for taking what they say with a pinch of salt. Once a liar, always a liar. However, a Liar has to have a damn good memory and get it right EVERY time.

It's kind of fun reading through this thread and others ,after considering some os the Snowden documents . Lets see if we can spot the the online intel that infiltrate social media forums and misdirect , obfuscate and spread known propaganda . Every one knows now that the US intel starts with the Washington Post and the NY Times . All the political talking heads just keep repeating the same BS . Good thread though and try as they may they cant get away from the facts the Russians have provided . Now that Putin has hit the ball back into the US side of the fence .It's time they (US) show us their data . peace a reply to: rustyclutch

I think it possible that Ukrainian used military aircraft near civilian aircraft to get the rebels to fire missiles which hit civilian aircraft since military aircraft can defend itself. If any conspiracy here this is probably it. Not saying it happened but if Ukraine wanted to exploit the rebels use of Russian supplied misses this would be one way to do it.

They tricked rebels into shooting down civilian aircraft by using decoy military aircraft near a civilian one?

originally posted by: moobie

originally posted by: TDawgRex
1. Ukraine said they had no fighter jets in the air at the time. LIE

Irrelevant evidence, FACT

Irrelevant? The accusers have been deceptive shows grounds for taking what they say with a pinch of salt. Once a liar, always a liar. However, a Liar has to have a damn good memory and get it right EVERY time.

My point exactly. The separatists and Pro-Russian contingent have not done so far.

a reply to: TDawgRex

So you aren't refuting any facts with any facts of your own just speculation on what you deem relevant and what it means to you. I get it. Thanks for the input!

a reply to: Xeven

That was what I thought initially when I was reading that spanish air traffic controllers tweets. No one could authenticate them tho so I took them with a grain of salt. However....the speed at which the west rolled out two bogus videos that were made PRIOR to the plane being crashed.....leads me to believe this was no accident. It was too convenient to be an accident. But it's still possible what you say is true. Just seems less likely to me than before given the new intel.

a reply to: rustyclutch

I see your supposed facts as pure speculation. Feel free to accept my facts as such as well.

But it doesn't look good for your side of the argument.

Just look at the facts.

a reply to: TDawgRex

Because any fact that doesn't validate your warped sense of what's going on is dismissed.

originally posted by: rustyclutch
a reply to: TDawgRex

Because any fact that doesn't validate your warped sense of what's going on is dismissed.

But you are doing the same.?.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Not like the Washington Post doesn't read ATS...they linked to it in an article. Why wouldn't they have someone derailing threads, trying out their arguments to see how well they hold up? I'm waiting to see what the U.S. has. You would think with all the accusations they made the President would be making a speech right now, with the C.I.A. and the Joint Chiefs of Staff showing our intel on what happened. Instead we got crickets from the government. These guys on ATS are putting up better arguments for the government than the government is. LOL

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: demus

How many days later?

as many as needed to hand it over to the right hands.

are you suggesting they should have give the black box to Ukrainian government for "investigation"?

originally posted by: thesaneone

originally posted by: rustyclutch
a reply to: TDawgRex

Because any fact that doesn't validate your warped sense of what's going on is dismissed.

But you are doing the same.?.

Actually it's not the same. I'm basing my opinion in someones facts. You just don't like the source. You are basing your opinion in NO ONES facts. They haven't provided any information proving the rebels OR Russia had anything to do with this. Only accusations. Anytime I ask anyone of you for something other than an accusation you provide nothing. Russia didn't accuse anyone. They provided information about what was going on in the area and what military assets were there. The things you would expect them to be able to provide. The things you would expect the C.I.A. that's been operating in Kiev to be able to provide. Or the satellite that casually passed over the plane as it crashed. Or any one of the NATO allies in the region that I am sure is monitoring things. None of which anyone can produce. So yes. I'm going to side with the Russians until someone can show me something worth believing. Better yet...just show me ANYTHING. You can't can you? If you had to make a thread with the american evidence it would be empty of text. Stop trying to derail mine.

ETA
Since you seem to think that makes what you just said awesome.

a reply to: Rosinitiate
I think The Russians are telling the truth.

Rebel 5

a reply to: rustyclutch

Wrong. ATS members are doing what they do best, jumping at conspiratorial straws in the hope they strike lucky. The 'facts' being paraded in this thread aren't facts. Members' egos are centric to their posts and not what has really happened. What we know is: 1) a commercial plane was downed via a surface-to-air missile system (a system that could very well have been looted from Ukrainian weapons stores or supplied by Russia, 2) there is video evidence of separatists walking away with what looks very much like one Black Box and of them desecrating the crime scene, 3) no effort was made to contain and protect the crime scene even when realising that a commercial airliner has been shot down, 4) efforts by international observers/crime scene investigators to inspect the wreckage have been blocked, 5) not all bodies have been accounted for and/or cannot be accounted for because Russia is calling the shots when they have no right to. Finally, the footage of the separatists desecrating the crash site and treating the dead and their belongings with little if any dignity is truly disgusting.

a reply to: LarryLove

oh please tell us should they have left black box laying in the field?

should they have left the bodies of deceased on the sun to rot?

a reply to: LarryLove

Sorry, but none of that proves Russia had anything to do with it

and this

a commercial plane was downed via a surface-to-air missile system (a system that could very well have been looted from Ukrainian weapons stores or supplied by Russia

is just speculation.

originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: rustyclutch

Certainly a more feasible culprit than some drunk hicks attempting use of skilled machinery aiming for 6 miles high.

I don't know about the Russian rebels, but the American military is full of highly-trained "drunk hicks". And I mean FULL!

Anyways, It sounds like the new Ukrainian terrorist government may have some 'splainin' to do. Why is the USA arming and backing them the same way they do Israel??? Bizarre.