Jesus Christ: The Loving God of the Old AND New Testament

a reply to: godlover25

So what's it gonna be Akragon? You have three choices now the way I see it -
A) renounce your belief in Jesus, seeing as how He believed in the Old Testament, claimed his Father is the OT God and that He and the OT God are One,
B) renounce your heretical belief in the ancient heresy of Marcionism
C) renounce theism and declare yourself an atheist

What exactly are you smoking brother?

First off Jesus did not say the OT God was his Father... yes he referenced the books in the OT a few times but again as I've said numerous times, he used what was available at the time to get the message across...

Yes he said "My Father and I are one"... but if his Father is the OT God, that would also make Jesus responsible for the atrocities committed by this God as well... Similar to another member on this forum who said Jesus was "the torah made flesh"... that is called insanity!!

IF you're good with that have fun with it... See in my life I use something called Logic... Base my life around it... IF something contradicts something else, I have no problem trying to figure out why... Clearly you don't do that, and by the way its not healthy... ever heard of cognitive dissonance?

IF Jesus and the OT God are one... Jesus was ok with destroying, murdering, conquering, raping and pillaging, infanticide, and a host of other disgusting behavior..... but the message he brought to the world says otherwise

SO like many other "Christians" you make him a liar... IF you're good with that... its fine with me... Tragic, and it makes me slightly ill to know that people can actually believe such utter tripe... but its your life

Secondly... LOL

Marcion was a huge Fan of Paul... and tossed out the gospels except Luke, who was a follower of Paul...

I am the complete opposite of that... I prefer Matthew, Mark, and John... and feel Luke is suspicious because it adds a lot of New concepts to the two earlier synoptic gospels.... Plus as I've said, Luke was a follower of Paul

I also add Thomas to the list of "gospels"...

Third... What kind of monkey assed lunacy makes you believe I need to renounce any of my beliefs because YOU said so?

Forth... Smoke crack much? (sorry I had to LOL )

You are free to believe whatever makes you happy... but if you can't see the distinction between the OT god, and Jesus... You're either ignoring the facts because they don't make you feel warm and fuzzy... or you honestly haven't read the bible and compared the words of Jesus to the OT... In which case you have a lot of work to do if you choose to not be willingly blind to the obvious issues....

YOU can not reconcile Jesus with the OT God... Its impossible without also claiming Jesus to be a liar... and just as Nuts as this so called god...

SO heres how I see it...

Feel free to be blind... continue on with your beliefs in a false God

OR

Look for the truth... and it shall set you free...

Jesus Vs The Imposter

a reply to: Akragon

Jesus Christ, my Lord and my God > ancient heresies / gnosticism any day.

God bless

a reply to: godlover25

Sure... I have no issues with that...

but that isn't what we've been talking about now is it?

a reply to: windword

Well, John the Baptist also denied that he was Elijah, although, for Jesus to have been the prophesied Messiah, Elijah had to have come to "prepare the way", and Jesus said that John was/is Elijah.

So John wasn't always correct in what he said....

None of this is relevant to what we were talking about earlier, which was the absence of Jesus' claim to be taking away the sins of the world.

There is no actual evidence that there was a widespread belief at Jesus' time that Elijah had to come before the Messiah could come.
The prophecy in Malachi is not really all that clearly a reference to the messiah, and could have meant a more real sort of divine presence in the temple.
It was probably after the fact, when the gospels were written, that the Elijah question became important since the Jesus story is somewhat reliant on the endorsement of John the Baptist.
Jesus clarifies it by saying that for those who can accept it, John was Elijah.
I think what he means is that for people who don't want to believe anyway, it is really irrelevant either way.

The Day of the Lord prophecies found in Matt 24:29-31&37-31, Matt 3:11&12, and Isaiah 13:6-15 all prove that Jesus is the same God spoken of in the OT. The Day of the Lord is predominately found in OT, yet Jesus quotes them to proclaim that He is God.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I'm afraid some of these folks will not listen, I hate to say but I have a bad feeling that they will never know until Jesus himself tells them "depart from me, ye cursed, I never knew you"....

My eyes well up with tears thinking of the deception and how sad it is.

Lord have mercy on us poor sinners

a reply to: jmdewey60

I disagree. The prophecy of Malachi was just as important as the Isaiah's, or the Psalms. The appearance of Elijah was important enough that, in the narrative of the gospels, the apostles mention Elijah, Jesus mentions that John was Elijah AND you have Elijah appearing at the "transfiguration".

Also, the Nazorean sect of the Essene were headquartered at Mount Carmel, where the Cave of Elijah was kept and venerated by the Nazorean, just a few miles from Nazareth, where Jesus supposedly grew up.

Elijah is very important and integral, in my opinion, to the Jesus story. imho

On topic, the Essene didn't believe that the Temple Priests were representing the "One True God". They believed the Torah and the Temple had been corrupted by the laws of men. They practiced Baptism and John the Baptist was most probably an Essene. They didn't impose the death penalty and took in wayward youth and outcasts for rehab and healing. Also, they didn't perform animal sacrifice.

originally posted by: godlover25
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I'm afraid some of these folks will not listen, I hate to say but I have a bad feeling that they will never know until Jesus himself tells them "depart from me, ye cursed, I never knew you"....

My eyes well up with tears thinking of the deception and how sad it is.

Lord have mercy on us poor sinners

That is just dishonest... why are you twisting what he said to suit your own purpose

Look at the context of what he said in that passage... The people who he will tell to "depart from me", are the people who do not help others.... Read the whole passage please...

Those who pick and choose who they should help, those who judge others, just as you have been doing to me...

What you have done to the least of these, YOU HAVE DONE TO ME!

Don't even dare to claim that anyone does not know Jesus, when you show to everyone that you do not either...

a reply to: windword

They practiced Baptism and John the Baptist was most probably an Essene.

I'm not sure that there ever was anything such as the Essenes.
Josephus mentions them as one of the four sects of the Jews, but beyond that, nothing is known of them.

The prophecy of Malachi was just as important as the Isaiah's, or the Psalms.

I am not denying the importance of Malachi.
I'm just saying that it isn't clear or it wouldn't have been before the fact, that it was referring to the Messiah.

The appearance of Elijah was important enough that, in the narrative of the gospels, the apostles mention Elijah, Jesus mentions that John was Elijah AND you have Elijah appearing at the "transfiguration".

It was the Christians who made it an issue, later.
The point being, to the Jews at the time, they would not have denied someone being a messiah based on the non-appearance of Elijah.

a reply to: Akragon

You misunderstand. If you truely love Jesus, you help others, but works are dead without faith.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

If you truely love Jesus, you help others, but works are dead without faith.

You reversed the verse, James 2:17,
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
(2011 NIV)

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Akragon

You misunderstand. If you truely love Jesus, you help others, but works are dead without faith.

read what Jmdewey just said...

Don't tell me I misunderstand...

Faith alone can NOT be "the way"

a reply to: jmdewey60

I'm not sure that there ever was anything such as the Essenes.
Josephus mentions then as one of the four sects of the Jews, but beyond that, nothing is known of them.

That's absolutely untrue. We know quite a bit of the Essene, not only through Josephus, who was initiated with them, Paul as well speaks of taking an oath of initiation, after which he shaved his head, but we have Pliney The Naturalist and Philo who also both wrote about the Essene.

There is also pretty good evidence that Plutarch's Parable also leaves clues of Essene influence in the politics of the day.

The finger prints of the Essene influence, especially the story of Jesus and his teachings, are littered throughout the New Testament.

a reply to: windword

That's absolutely untrue. We know quite a bit of the Essene, not only through Josephus, who was initiated with them . . .

I would suggest that Josephus was intentionally obfuscating to protect the group that he formerly belonged to by giving disinformation.

a reply to: Akragon

Fiat currency must be backed by a commodity to have value.

In the same way, work must be backed by faith. You are what you believe.

Faith alone manifests into good work. So believers are evenly yoked with faith and works. If all you have is your works, then I urge you to muster up some faith.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Akragon

Fiat currency must be backed by a commodity to have value.

In the same way, work must be backed by faith. You are what you believe.

Faith alone manifests into good work. So believers are evenly yoked with faith and works. If all you have is your works, then I urge you to muster up some faith.

You see my friend, I am far beyond just faith...

And Faith alone does not manifest into good works... in some cases yes... but not always...

This is exactly what I was saying earlier... There are many with great Faith in God, but when it comes down to it they choose to help some, and turn their backs on others... These are the people who Jesus was speaking of when he said "I do not know you"... Unless one understands Jesus... Faith alone will not cut it...

IF one has "Faith" in Jesus... they do what he told us to do... and he did not say reserve judgement on who you should help...

Faith alone is NOT the way that Jesus taught... And Christians or anyone for that matter who believes it was will be in for a surprise one day

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

If faith always manifests into good work then why does James say that faith without works is dead? Why would he tell the faithful to do good works if it is automatically brought with faith anyways? Seems a bit redundant doesn't it?

a reply to: Akragon

If faith doesnt develop into good works, then the faith was a lie.

Real faith autonomously motivates acts of love.

So called acts of love void of faith are done to mask lack of faith.

First clean the inside then polish the outside. The Law of Love starts with faith alone and becomes much more.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Come on dewey, you're moving the goalposts. You say nothing apart from Josephus mentioning them is known of them, then when evidence to the contrary is brought up you resort to saying everything that is known is disinformation.

So is nothing known of them or is what is known disinformation?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I'd have to say that the opposite is true, doing good works is a show of faith, faith in love. If you forgive others then you will be forgiven, regardless of faith in a sacrifice.