School Causes Girl To Get Frost Bite, page 3

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 12:43 AM

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defcon5

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

You know for a fact that all the teachers just happened to stop evacuating students to run to the “staff lounge” and grab their car keys? Or that they were all carrying them with them at the time this happened?

Again, when you have to move a group of hundreds to possibly thousands of people, and account for them all, 10 minutes is a much shorter amount of time than you're giving it credit for. Nobody is going to die from hypothermia or get deep frostbite in 10 minutes unless they are much colder weather then we get here in the US. I'm not saying its a pleasant experience, but again its not as immediately threatening as some here are making it out to be.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

I do not know that for a fact. That is why I said someone should have been able to come up with another alternative off the cuff if the car was out of the question. I am not an unreasonable person by any means, but I do expect for my child to return home from school without frostbite regardless if it is "deep" or not. Maybe ALL of the teachers could have offered her their coats. After all... they were not wearing swimsuits nor were they wet. There was NO ATTEMPT by anyone BUT the students to ease the girls suffering.

I do not believe they did the best they could. Plain and simple. Any attempt would have been better than what they did.

-25 (with the windchill) is pretty cold. Obviously cold enough to cause frostbite on this girls feet. It certainly would be unpleasant and could have cost her, her toes in the end.

Again, I am not unreasonable. I do realize things happen, but I also realize that there were plenty of adults who did not offer even the smallest aid in helping her, be it several coats, their over sweaters, etc. ANYTHING is better than NOTHING.

edit on 3/5/2014 by Kangaruex4Ewe because: (no reason given)

defcon5

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 12:56 AM

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diggindirt
However, in this case there wasn't just one or two people to see that these children were protected. I'm assuming that all high school classes have a teacher so if you're dealing with several hundred children, you've also got several dozen adults.

Some big high schools have thousands of students and hundreds of staff members.
As the school has a pool, its most likely a pretty big one.

Now lets say you have this thousand students and hundred staff members out in a big line in the parking lot, and lets say you have already spent 5 minutes getting them there and accounted for. Now lets say ¼ of those staff member actually stopped to grab their car keys to begin with. How many minutes is it going to take you to find a staff member that has their car keys, get them to their car, start it, and bring it over for someone to sit in? What would you do if it had happened 15 minutes earlier when the whole class was in the swimming pool?

See you guys are NOT seeing the bigger picture here.
Maybe its because I have dealt with this stuff before that 10 minutes does not seem like an unreasonable response time to deal with something that is not immediately life threatening.
Hell, even in a life threatening situation 10 minutes for a response is great in this day and age.
Try getting a fire department or police officer to respond in under 10 minutes.

diggindirt
When I read stories like this and some of the comments, I am eternally grateful that my loved ones are being homeschooled.

This doesn't just apply to schools. Like I said above, I've been evacuated from work in a similar fashion out into the freezing cold and snow. It also applies to things like triage, etc...

hounddoghowlie

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 12:59 AM

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defcon5
reply to post by hounddoghowlie

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Death from smoke inhalation = 2 – 10 minutes.
Death from immersion in freezing water = 15-45 minutes.

If you are in charge of a group in an emergency situation you have to take care of issues according to what is the most immediate, and work your way down from that. People were aware of her situation, and helping her, she was not in immediate “life threatening” danger. Hypothermia has stages and signs, frostbite is not fatal and has varying degrees. It takes a significant amount of time in very cold weather to get “deep” frostbite to an extent that requires amputation of tissue, most cases of frostbite are treatable.

That may sound cold, but I'm guessing you've never had to deal with that sort of situation.
I have, too many times...
You do things in a specific order of descending importance, quickly, and often with incomplete information. You put potential “life and death” issues before ones that are not immediately threatening. Again, this is exactly the same as triage. In triage you might have to let someone sit and bleed, while you are busy giving someone else CPR to save them.

I suppose that had the fire been worse, you would have rather had someone end up burnt to death because the staff was concentrating on this one child’s issue rather then making sure that no one was still in harms way? Or that a firefighter ended up dead searching for a missing student who had left the scene unaccounted for to seek refuge in another building? Or that that the student could have ended up dead because she took 5-10 minutes extra to go the locker and change?

Its easy to “arm chair quarterback" this stuff, and hindsight is 20/20, but you give me the solution, and I'll show you that even your solution is potentially full of holes.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

no where did i ever say let her stay in the building
don't be all high and mighty with me, in my younger days i was volunteer firefighter and as well part of my time when i was in the Corps. i know all the all the drills and procedure of how to approach a emergency situation. that's why i said you sound like a true conformist, everything by the book. i have received recognition in both because i acted beyond the guidelines and procedures. ie contrary to protocol.

when you have fifty teachers standing in a parking lot, while a wet half naked girl warped in what is more than likely wet towel and a wet head. is standing around in -25 below wind chill temperatures, that don't take responsibility and place the child in a warm vehicle and take responsibility for that child and account for her, they are a bunch of idiots.

any one that says, they would do the same as these teachers are too. plain and simple. there are some things more important than rules, regulations. and if your to blind to see that someones life is in danger and don't do something immediately because your wanting to follow procedure,or afraid of losing your job, your a moron. especially a teacher not involved in firefighting.

also time decrease in exposure as wind chill drops.

edit on 5-3-2014 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)

defcon5

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:02 AM

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reply to post by Kangaruex4Ewe

According to your article:

Her fellow classmates, at least, huddled around her to try to keep her warm. And one teacher did eventually lend her a coat.

And according to your video another student gave her a sweater.
Now she was out there for 10 minutes. It probably took her 2-5 of those minutes to walk out to the parking lot, and in that time she was given a coat and a sweater. Again we're not talking about a half an hour here, we're talking 10 minutes total.

queenofsheba

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:08 AM

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reply to post by Kangaruex4Ewe

Five below zero is not that uncommon in Minnesota. I grew up there, basically my whole life. I dressed my children accordingly for the weather and perhaps her parents did not. Wind chill factor is something to be considered for sure, (see I'm talking MN)...but still don't you think the parents' had some responsibility for how they dressed their child for the weather? It's always a possibility that the school bus could go in the ditch in bad weather, and trust me, school busses drive out to rural areas to pick up kids in inclement weather. I have lived it, seen it. That's why I drove an F250 Four wheel drive truck when I lived there, it's common sense. I made sure my kids were dressed accordingly, for all outcomes, including fire drills, busses breaking down, etc. I have a sneaky suspicion the child in question was not properly outfitted for the weather.

Kangaruex4Ewe

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:11 AM

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queenofsheba
reply to post by Kangaruex4Ewe

Five below zero is not that uncommon in Minnesota. I grew up there, basically my whole life. I dressed my children accordingly for the weather and perhaps her parents did not. Wind chill factor is something to be considered for sure, (see I'm talking MN)...but still don't you think the parents' had some responsibility for how they dressed their child for the weather? It's always a possibility that the school bus could go in the ditch in bad weather, and trust me, school busses drive out to rural areas to pick up kids in inclement weather. I have lived it, seen it. That's why I drove an F250 Four wheel drive truck when I lived there, it's common sense. I made sure my kids were dressed accordingly, for all outcomes, including fire drills, busses breaking down, etc. I have a sneaky suspicion the child in question was not properly outfitted for the weather.

I don't think the parents had ANY responsibility since the girl was dragged from the POOL IN HER SWIMSUIT AND RUSHED OUTSIDE SOAKING WET. The parents could have dressed her like a Tibetan Sherpa but since she can't swim in that....

The parents had nothing to do with her taking swim class in school as the article clearly states.

edit on 3/5/2014 by Kangaruex4Ewe because: (no reason given)

queenofsheba

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:13 AM

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reply to post by Kangaruex4Ewe

Sorry, I missed that, my bad. You are right.

Yep, then bad call. I'm not perfect, what can I say?

whitewave

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:14 AM

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In the condition that girl was in when she exited the building, it takes 2 minutes for hypothermia to set in and be serious enough for her to be unable to have the coordination needed to even open a car door for herself if it had been offered or allowed. Two Minutes! Being young and healthy is probably the only thing that allowed her to endure her ordeal of 10 minutes in those life-threatening conditions. I'm glad her fellow students had mercy on her. Also glad she wasn't the fat or nerdy kid that probably would've been left to suffer due to lack of popularity. The teachers could see that she was accounted for. They could've had 2 or 3 students accompany/escort her to a vehicle for safety's sake. If she had been in flames when she came out of the building would they have insisted she stand there burning up until everyone was accounted for? Their response (or lack thereof) was just asinine.

Kangaruex4Ewe

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:14 AM

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queenofsheba
reply to post by Kangaruex4Ewe

Sorry, I missed that, my bad. You are right.
Yep, then bad call. I'm not perfect, what can I say?

Hey... we've all done it.

Kangaruex4Ewe

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:21 AM

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All of these strangers could come up with a coat for this boy they didn't even know.

Yet there was no more than ONE teacher that could offer a student at their school a coat? At least one more coat to stand on could have possibly prevented the frostbite. One more coat.

defcon5

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:21 AM

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hounddoghowlie
in my younger days i was volunteer firefighter and as well part of my time when i was in the Corps. i know all the all the drills and procedure of how to approach a emergency situation.

Then you should know better, and know that what I am saying is true.
You should know that people aren't in a life threatening situation for 10 minutes in the cold.
You should know that people immersed in freezing water live longer then that.
You should know that people have been recovered and revived after hours in freezing water.
You should know that 10 minutes is not an unreasonable response time.
You should know what the “golden hour” is.
You should know how triage works.
You should know what its like to have confused or incomplete information on the scene.
You should know that people are trained to act in a certain way in an emergency so they do it by rote repetition, and that you don't expect them to “improvise” going away from that “plan”.
And...
You should know that when a news article leaves out “key” bits of information that the girl herself admits in the video that this is a sensationalist news “hack” job.

hounddoghowlie
when you have fifty teachers standing in a parking lot, while a wet half naked girl warped what is more than likely wet towel and a wet head.

And a students sweater... And a teachers coat...

hounddoghowlie
any one that says, they would do the same as these teachers are too. plain and simple.

Its not a matter of “rules and regulations”, its a matter of seeing the bigger picture here and understanding how short an amount of time that 10 minutes really is when you are dealing with that volume of people during a possible emergency.

hounddoghowlie
also time decrease in exposure as wind chill drops.

Yep, and according to NOAA, at 5 degrees with -25 windchill you have 30 minutes until you have significant chance of frostbite...

defcon5

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:26 AM

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whitewave
In the condition that girl was in when she exited the building, it takes 2 minutes for hypothermia to set in and be serious enough for her to be unable to have the coordination needed to even open a car door for herself if it had been offered or allowed. Two Minutes!

Where are you getting that information from?
You could be thrown in the Bearing Straight in your underwear, and live longer then that. 15 to 45 minutes, loss of consciousness at 15, death at 45. NOAA says that under the conditions of that day it takes up to 30 minutes to get significant frostbite.

defcon5

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:34 AM

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Kangaruex4Ewe
Yet there was no more than ONE teacher that could offer a student at their school a coat? At least one more coat to stand on could have possibly prevented the frostbite. One more coat.

Did no one but me read the article AND watch the video?
She was given a teachers coat and a students sweater.

Kangaruex4Ewe

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:37 AM

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defcon5

Kangaruex4Ewe
Yet there was no more than ONE teacher that could offer a student at their school a coat? At least one more coat to stand on could have possibly prevented the frostbite. One more coat.

Did no one but me read the article AND watch the video?
She was given a teachers coat and a students sweater.

I said ONE teacher and I said ONE MORE COAT to stand on. Why are you half reading my posts?

My post said: Yet there was no more than ONE teacher that could offer a student at their school a coat? At least one more coat to stand on could have possibly prevented the frostbite. One more coat.

Obviously she needed more than what she had since she got frostbite on her feet. A coat and a sweater (from a student) helped her not get it anywhere else. If she had no shoes, another coat would have given her a barrier between her feet and the freezing asphalt.

And obviously NOAA's statistics aren't correct 100% of the time since this girl did indeed suffer frostbite to her feet in less than 30 minutes.

edit on 3/5/2014 by Kangaruex4Ewe because: (no reason given)

whitewave

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:39 AM

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reply to post by defcon5

Does NOAA say those statistics are still accurate if the victim is wet? In wind? Poorly dressed? Is NOAA aware of any pre-existing medical conditions (like diabetes) she might have that would contribute to hypothermia. And obviously her frostbite DID occur is less than 30-45 minutes. Being plunged into freezing water will initiate the mammalian dive response that NOAA is quoting but does not apply to being soping wet, half naked in freezing wind.

My information was obtained from nursing school and 30 years of working ICU.

JHumm

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:44 AM

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You shouldn't have to worry about your child gettin frost bite at school ,no matter how minor . If one of those teachers had common sense which you would think someone would ....(it is a school ) this wouldn't have happened.

And about the doors locking from the outside.....if there is a fire how the help do you get in to save people ? When seconds count you can't wait for the fire dept. To come with an axe to smash the windows that seems like a major fire hazard right there .

violet

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 01:59 AM

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Only wearing a bathing suit and sopping wet? She must have suffered brutally. I'm surprised she didn't get hyperthermia.

defcon5

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 02:03 AM

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Kangaruex4Ewe
Obviously she needed more than what she had since she got frostbite on her feet.

According to her she used the sweater to wrap up her feet.

Kangaruex4Ewe
And obviously NOAA's statistics aren't correct 100% of the time since this girl did indeed suffer frostbite to her feet in less than 30 minutes.

You have different levels of “frostbite”, though most people think of it only as one thing. Much like burns you have 1-4 degree frostbite. First degree is like a sunburn, second degree is akin to a second degree burn with some blistering but no permanent damage. Third and forth degree, again similar to burns, is where you start getting deep tissue damage, permanent damage, and risk possibly losing tissue. When you see the guys coming back from Mount Everest and their toes or fingers are black, that is 3rd or 4th degree frostbite.

Here is NOAA's chart:

We don't know the windspeed from the news, but we know that it was -5 and -25 windchill, which means that the wind should have been roughly 14mph. That puts it in the 30 minutes zone.

defcon5

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 02:27 AM

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whitewave
Poorly dressed?

That's bare skin.

whitewave
In wind?

It's a “windchill” chart.

whitewave
Does NOAA say those statistics are still accurate if the victim is wet?

In water people can go 15 minutes until loosing consciousness and 45 until dying. Obviously being in freezing water is “worst case” as water is very effective at conducting your body heat away from you. She was not in water, but she was wet. Still even in worse case she would not have started to show any signs of a problem until at least 5 minutes after the situation was resolved.

whitewave
And obviously her frostbite DID occur is less than 30-45 minutes.

What degree?
1St?
Go live up north and you learn to live with that happening on an almost daily basis.

whitewave
My information was obtained from nursing school and 30 years of working ICU.

Good.
You're the only person on shift, and two patients are having problems. One is bleeding significantly but not showing any other symptoms, and the other is in cardiac arrest. You have 10 minutes until another nurse can get to you. What do you do?

Elton

posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 02:40 AM

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JHumm
You shouldn't have to worry about your child gettin frost bite at school ,no matter how minor . If one of those teachers had common sense which you would think someone would ....(it is a school ) this wouldn't have happened.

I agree with this, the parents trust the school to do their best to keep the children safe and the school was negligent on this.