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School Causes Girl To Get Frost Bite

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posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 09:43 PM
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All this arguing over how long it takes to get frostbite is missing the point entirely.

Does anyone actually think a teacher was timing this event and looking up NOAA charts to make sure she wasn't out there too long?

Given the improbability of that occurring and the fact that she DID get frostbite it is my opinion they simply got lucky.

It could have been worse ...

And even if she wasn't at risk of frostbite and hypothermia the girl was certainly suffering unnecessarily was she not?

Isn't the actual purpose of fire alarms and drills to protect children from harm?

And if she was not protected from harm does that not indicate a failure to achieve that purpose?

Take it from me, Sherlock, you people seriously need to get a clue ...
edit on 3/5/14 by SherlockH because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 10:14 PM
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This makes me sick, schools have turned into a totalitarian regime where teachers feel that it up to them to control the children whatever way they feel necessary. There was a recent case here in the UK of a teacher using cello tape to tape the childrens mouths so that they wouldnt talk or giggle whilst she was teaching. What an absurd thing to do. If I was the parent of one of those kids I would have gone mad, these teachers are there to teach, not control our children like animals.
edit on 5-3-2014 by fabricofsociety2014 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2014 @ 11:30 PM
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How about this for common sense: Who the hell calls a fire drill with temperatures well below zero?

Couldn't they have just run a tornado drill instead?




posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 12:35 AM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


Yes sir, I know full well about policies and procedures and disaster drills and manuals of all types. I spent five years on a committee that oversaw every drill carried out in our county. As a member of that committee I participated in every one of those county-wide disaster drills, in the post-drill assessments and adjustments in procedures and manuals. I participated in my fair share of emergencies and small town disasters as well as drills. I know it can be difficult but I also know that critical thinking and judgment cannot be replaced by what is written on a page in a manual.
After I changed professions I spent 30 years doing public education and herding students from middle-school to post grads. I've seen firsthand the attitude exhibited by you and apparently by the people involved in the incident. That mindset knows only what is written in the manuals and won't accept new/different circumstances that aren't covered in the protocol/manual.
I was crew chief for an archaeological field school that was held on a piece of property owned by the university. The university provided housing for members of the crew, students, teachers and volunteers. The syllabus for the class included the information that the crew chief would live on-site and should be contacted in case of any emergency and would be responsible for getting students to safety in case of a natural disaster. It further stated that in case of storms, the crew would meet at the "bunkhouse" for instructions. The bunkhouse was a doublewide mobile home situated on the top of a ridge and surrounded by trees.
One evening after the site had been closed down a tornado warning was issued for the area. As crew chief I gathered all students living on the site and took them to the building that served as our lab and storage facility because it was built with three sides underground. Well after we were all comfortably settled inside the building with our emergency radio, one of the professors who was not living on site was seen rushing to the bunkhouse. The students waved her over thinking she was looking for shelter.
When she arrived, she immediately began ordering the students to assemble at the designated meet-up spot. ... They were as perplexed as I --- and began to ask why they should leave this shelter to assemble anywhere? Her answer astounded us all, "Because that's where the syllabus tells us to meet." It honestly never occurred to her that the point was the safety of the mostly underground shelter---she was too busy following rules to use her critical thinking abilities. I think most of those students learned a little something that evening.
I hope the administration of the school has learned something and takes a long look at itself after this.



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 01:53 AM
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reply to post by SherlockH
 


Well, excuse me Sherlock. The chart was just to show how quickly frostbite can set in, and at what temps, to give people an idea. It's just good science. I can't believe you are whining about it. No one expects the teacher to be looking at charts, but common sense says that children in bathing suits aren't rushed outside in these temps.
Oh yes and the girl was wet, I believe her hair was wet and that likely intensified the risk. Remember in White Fang when the guy fell in the icy water and they fished him out and pulled all his clothes off and wrapped him in a blanket and built a fire immediately? All that was for a reason.
edit on 6-3-2014 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 06:13 AM
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reply to post by Kangaruex4Ewe
 


I believe this parent has very good ground's to sue the school and the state for a breech of care due to there negligence in there care of this child but I am not in the state's so am now aware of how this would play out, still this is disgusting and more so in that the teacher's left this child to freeze, at least the other children cared, from what I know of the states the people of minnesota seem a really nice bunch so I am shocked at this behaviour and negligence.



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 07:02 AM
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LABTECH767
reply to post by Kangaruex4Ewe
 


I believe this parent has very good ground's to sue the school and the state for a breech of care due to there negligence in there care of this child but I am not in the state's so am now aware of how this would play out, still this is disgusting and more so in that the teacher's left this child to freeze, at least the other children cared, from what I know of the states the people of minnesota seem a really nice bunch so I am shocked at this behaviour and negligence.


I certainly believe the family will sue. I am normally not a litigious person, but when there is such a huge lapse in judgement (as in this case) a suit will normally cause everyone to take another look at their policies and strive for better plans and better ways to avoid having something like this happen again. If a suit is filed, I do not think it will ever see a courtroom as I believe there would be a settlement to avoid it.

It is indeed shocking that something like this goes down with so many people able to rectify it but not doing so.

edit on 3/6/2014 by Kangaruex4Ewe because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 07:51 AM
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ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by SherlockH
 


Well, excuse me Sherlock. The chart was just to show how quickly frostbite can set in, and at what temps, to give people an idea. It's just good science. I can't believe you are whining about it. No one expects the teacher to be looking at charts, but common sense says that children in bathing suits aren't rushed outside in these temps.
Oh yes and the girl was wet, I believe her hair was wet and that likely intensified the risk. Remember in White Fang when the guy fell in the icy water and they fished him out and pulled all his clothes off and wrapped him in a blanket and built a fire immediately? All that was for a reason.
edit on 6-3-2014 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)


Whining? Did you really read and comprehend my post? I don't think you have ...

perhaps I was not clear enough ...

We are in agreement ... allow me to explain again ...

People (Defcon, I believe) were arguing over how she was not at risk of anything serious (using those charts as justification). Saying things like ~ frostbite doesn't set in for at least 30 minutes under those conditions, and my point was that this is all hindsight. No one at the school was looking at charts, getting wind and temperature data and timing her exposure. And yet, charts or no charts, a nearly naked girl dripping wet in -25 wind chill would certainly seem at risk to hypothermia and frostbite to anyone with average intelligence, would it not? (common sense as you put it)

She was left outside in the freezing cold to suffer and actually get frost bite.

Therefore they failed in their duty to protect her - which was the point of alarms and drills in the first place.

Simply put, the girl should not have been left like that out in those temperatures ...

----------------------


It is the spirit of the rule, not the rule itself, that is important.

If you have to violate a rule in order to secure the the goal or purpose for which the rule was written then so be it.

Rules are not meant to be a substitute for thinking ...



edit on 3/6/14 by SherlockH because: (no reason given)

edit on 3/6/14 by SherlockH because: (no reason given)

edit on 3/6/14 by SherlockH because: (no reason given)

edit on 3/6/14 by SherlockH because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 08:29 AM
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This is just a symptom of the shift away from intellect and decision making to a reliance on procedure. No one thinks for themselves any more, they just follow the book, even when it doesn't make sense.
That's why there are so many idiots in managerial roles, they are insulated from their own incompetence by having systems to follow.



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 12:06 PM
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Come to think of it, even if the school was on fire how much danger could she be in if she had stayed in the pool?



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 01:36 PM
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I sure find it hard to believe that anyone that has lived in Minnesota would spend 2 minutes out in a wet swimsuit when the wind chill is 25 below. There are several conclusions a rational person can make; a) the story is mostly BS and crafted by the attorney representing the girl. b) the school was for intellectually challenged kids c) for intellectually challenged teachers to work.
....but what the rational Minnesotan will understand is that nobody is going to stand out in that windchill in a bathing suit for 10 minutes unless they are a member of the polar bears....so I say it didn't happen the way it was reported...and this is yet just another thread that affords the opportunity for people to get their righteous indignation fix in for the day.



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 02:16 PM
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Like I said above, I've been evacuated from work in a similar fashion out into the freezing cold and snow.
reply to post by defcon5
 


Have you been evacuated, soaking wet and in a swimsuit? I suggest you put your money where your mouth is, so to speak, and do so. Make sure it is -25 with the wind chill and let us know how it goes.


I've worked in the Canadian arctic for an Oil Exploration company for the last 15 years....I'm speaking from long experience in dealing with cold. I've had extensive training in dealing with this type of environment. I've seen grown men in full gear end up with frostbite in 20 mins. Metabolic rate, amount of rest, diet, pre-existing medical conditions...ect are all contributing factors to how someone is able to deal with cold. There is no hard and fast rules as to how someone will react to exposure of this type. Also, once you have had frostbite in your extremeties, it will forever be much easier for you to end up with it.

Obviously you have never had frostbite or you would not be so glib about it. I have had it more times than I care to count. Even 1st degree frostbite is EXTREMELY painful when the limb is thawing out. I've been brought to tears when my feet have thawed.

Hypothermia is also dependant on a number of factors which I listed a few of above. Being nearly naked and wet...would greatly increase the rate at which core temperature is lost. Given that it was the windchill factor that was responsible for the -25 temps...that constant wind would also excellerate this process. Hypothermia is no joke. Had she had a pre-existing heart condition that nobody was aware of, for instance....even a drop of a few degrees in core temperature could greatly increase her chances of going into cardiac arrest.

I could go on and on, but the main point here is that this could have potentially ended very badly for that little girl. She is lucky that it didn't.

Whomever the school officials are that scheduled this drill should have cancelled it until a warmer day. If I had run a drill in temps like that where there was a possibility that someone could be outside nearly naked and soaking wet I would have been fired and potentially charged with negligence. Not to mention I would have some very angry guys to deal with.
edit on 6-3-2014 by deadcalm because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 02:35 PM
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reply to post by deadcalm
 


Why do you believe then that a high school girl, was in a wet swimming suit for 10 minutes out in that?! We know better!
It just can't be done by the normal kid, they would have said, "@#%$ you! give me detention!"
Any of you people cross country ski? in one of those spandex suits? ever get DF? You want to experience pain on a new level?
anyone urinate fire? get DF and you will quit any winter outdoor activity for the rest of your life.

This girl did not spend 10 minutes in -25 wind chill in a wet swimsuit.......that just didn't happen.....some variation of that no doubt but we here in Minnesota are not that stupid. Not even any of these dumb teachers. Someone find out the real truth and put this silly crap to bed.



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 02:47 PM
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.so I say it didn't happen the way it was reported.
reply to post by Res Ipsa
 


Did you know that I am heir to the Spanish throne? See, I can do it too. Just because you find the content of the story hard to believe does not mean that it didn't happen. I couldn't believe a recent story about a school that gave kids lunches and then threw them out because their parents hadn't paid their lunch bill yet...but it was true non-the -less.

This is the story as it stands now....deal with it until new imformation does or doesn't come to light. If you have something to add that refutes the story...then by all means...share it with us.



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 03:20 PM
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reply to post by deadcalm
 


I did refute it and with more credibility then the story itself has. I suggested strongly that someone take the time to get the real story or let this stupid thing rest. Sorry but she didn't stand outside in a wet swimsuit in -25 wind chill for 10 minutes. Did not happen. My point being that this is just a righteous indignation rant thread after the first page. Akin to saying Democrats are baby killers because they are pro-choice. She might have thought she was cool going outside in a swimsuit for 10 seconds but then some teacher saw her and threw a coat on her or got her back in the school and what was really 1 or 2 minutes turned into 10 minutes.......Have you ever been in the news or a part of a news story?......If you have then you know it isn't reported very accurately...so don't waste your time defending this nonsense of a story...moving on.



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 05:21 PM
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What really bugs me about this is that teachers (especially gym teachers that work with kids in less than adequate attire) are typically informed about the days and times that fire drills happen just to avoid this type of situation (I know, because I am a teacher). They wouldn't even let kids change their clothes or get into the pool if there was a fire drill scheduled. There was a severe lack of common sense and communication in this case. If I were the girl's parents, I would be filing suit as soon as possible, for not only the medical costs relating to frostbite, but for the embarrassment of the girl.

The other thing that bugs me about this story is that schools aren't typically supposed to do fire drills in the winter--- this is to avoid situations like this one.

This goes to show that administration (and we're talking the state level----mostly run by lawyers, not real teachers) isn't too bright.


-TS



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 05:33 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



deadcalm
Obviously you have never had frostbite or you would not be so glib about it.

Thousands of times, I grew up in the upper northern US. I've had bad sunburns that caused far worse problems then frostbite ever did. Generally, if you get frostbite you soak your hands in cold water and slowly warm it up until it subsides.


deadcalm
Have you been evacuated, soaking wet and in a swimsuit? I suggest you put your money where your mouth is, so to speak, and do so. Make sure it is -25 with the wind chill and let us know how it goes.

We used to get evacuated pretty frequently in the winter, often in just what we were wearing at the time, including sweaty gym shorts and t-shirts. I have also fallen through ice quite a number of times in my life, and had to hike soaking wet sometimes a great distance to get dry. We also used to drive snow mobiles up to 70 mph in -30 temperatures. And yes, most of that happened in grade and high school. There were also many times when I would not bother to even put on footwear to go outside in the snow to do whatever, I'd just go take care of it in my bare feet. When you live in the north you get pretty used to the cold.

Again...
10 minutes to herd a bunch of teenagers outside, count them, find a teacher with a car, get them to their car, get the car started and moved to where the person was, etc... is not unreasonable.

It also doesn't help that according to school officials the girl had been told to get out of the pool and get dressed, but chose not to follow instructions:
Como Park High student in wet bathing suit suffers frostbite

"When the fire alarm went off, the teacher advised students in the pool to quickly dress and get outside," wrote Julie Schultz Brown, the district's communications director, in an email. "Two students chose not to."


Apparently 28 other kids who were also swimming had no problems.


deadcalm
Whomever the school officials are that scheduled this drill should have cancelled it until a warmer day. If I had run a drill in temps like that where there was a possibility that someone could be outside nearly naked and soaking wet I would have been fired and potentially charged with negligence. Not to mention I would have some very angry guys to deal with.

And to those who keep saying this was a “fire drill” because they didn't bother to read the article or watch the video

When smoke from a science project triggered a fire alarm at Como Park Senior High School


And this brings up another question:


Zaccard said the school is equipped with only a partial sprinkler system

What do you do when 1500 kids are all soaking wet?
You gon'na go get 1500 teachers cars?


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



edit on 3/6/2014 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 05:41 PM
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RedParrotHead
Come to think of it, even if the school was on fire how much danger could she be in if she had stayed in the pool?

First off it was a fire, this was not a drill.
Secondly, its not the fire that kills folks, its smoke inhalation.
Third, fire alarms are used for everything from fire, to gas leaks, to having an armed person in the building, they are not just used for fires.



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 06:08 PM
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I would have gone to my locker and gotten my clothes. I am certain the locker was not in the hallways because a half naked student anywhere other than the pool would be problematic on a day to day basis, so it wouldn't have taken long and I KNOW that no teacher is going to place their hands on me and drag me outside, especially with how occupied they are with policy.

So, while the school is definitely incompetent, I think the girl is 50% at fault here


*edit* I just now saw another persons posts saying the kids were instructed to change first. I now say the girl is at 75% fault, and this coming from someone who just got out of high school and knows very well the general incompetence of the system.
edit on 3 6 14 by mgsgta3 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 6 2014 @ 08:06 PM
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roadgravel
The purpose of a rule is for safety. If the rule makes for an unsafe condition, it's a bad rule. An adjustment is in order.



A bad rule? Is that all? Forget that this girl could have possibly lost one of her limbs because of a 'bad rule' someone at the very least needs to be suspended without pay, though I wouldn't shed a tear if someone lost their job. The school district should also pay the parents any cost they may have had to pay out of pocket (though it seems like she has insurance) AT THE VERY LEAST.

If something like this had happened when she were with her parents, they would either be in jail right now or CPS would take her away, why is the school doing it any different? This story is complete bull#. We can't even send our children to school these days without having to worry about one thing or another. Will they lock my child in a closet today so he can piss on himself? Will they strip search my 10 year old because a teacher mis placed their money? Will they try to charge my kid with assault for making a finger gun playing with a friend? Will they force my daughter to stand barefoot in the snow after she JUST GOT DONE SWIMMING?

WTF is this world coming to?



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