The Real Reason the Government Doesn’t Want to Bail out the Auto Makers.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am here to tell you that is what’s called ENDENTURED SERVITUDE and was outlawed in this country a few centuries ago.

Guess again. Most people are in fact indentured servants who are afraid to quit or loose a low paying job for fear that they will fall behind on their credit payments.

THEIR CREDIT RATING IS MORE VITAL TO THEIR SURVIVAL THAN THEIR SKILL SET THAT EARNS THE LOW WAGE THAT FORCES THEM TO BORROW.

YES. I recently made this almost exact statement to my mother who is a baby boomer (the "pick yourself up by the bootstraps" generation). We both have differing views on many things due to a generation gap.

What is very distressing to me is all the social problems that stem from the above. Parents leaving kids home alone all day, not being nurtured enough, health issues related to stress, depression, legal / financial problems, stemming marital / divorce issues, drug abuse, working multiple jobs to get by, go on and on...more and more ways to keep us enslaved just by sheer exhaustion.

If every single household in this country were to refuse to pay income tax for one year, we could shut down the whole damn dog and pony show and take power back to the hands of the people...but it's that FEAR of OWING and doing PRISON time for a NON EXISTENT law that keeps everyone towing the line.

[edit on 2/8/2009 by shockedonlooker]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Excellent post, PT! Your points hit the nail on the head. I believe that your attitude is the attitude that all people should have. Furthermore, your point about the bosses making so much more than the worker is right on, also:

The gap between the pay of the average worker and that of top corporate executives widened into a gulf during the 1990s, according to a study to be released today by two pro-labor think tanks. "A Decade of Executive Excess," the sixth annual survey of executive compensation by the Institute for Policy Studies and United for a Fair Economy, finds the ratio of top executive to factory worker pay has exploded this decade to 419 to 1 last year from 42 to 1 in 1980. Had worker pay risen at the same pace as executive pay, the average production worker would earn more than $110,000 a year today, compared with the $29,000 the worker actually makes. And the minimum wage would be $22.08 an hour, ...

www.highbeam.com...

reply to post by Whisper67bi

My dad, rip, got on at GM right after WWII with a 9th grade education. He had to quit school to help support his large family of brother and sisters in the depression. It enabled him to achieve his version of the American Dream. He met my mom there, married her and little 2 yr old me, gave us a house, two cars, a vacation cottage, a private high school education for me, a 1980 pontiac trans am for me (dang I miss that car - it was beautiful even tho it seemed it was always in the shop) and I got a college education.

Whisper thank you for posting this. It brought genuine tears to my eyes. A good man worked at a good honest job, and had a good life, raising a good family that enjoyed a quality life.

That is what the Unions were out to achieve and could have and would have if not for all the efforts of the elites who simply want to control people by limiting the personal movements, education and other freedoms that come hand in hand with a living wage.

Early organizers fought and sometimes died violent deaths by elites like Carnegie who ordered private security gaurds to fire and shoot to kill in to crowds of strikers.

Unions had to fight hard to get their fair share of the pie.

America is faltering now for one reason and one reason alone.

Our forefathers warned us specifically and clearly, freedom must always be fought for. The tree of liberty will need constant tending.

We have since been trained to believe that means just the sanctity of our borders.

The reality is that from the moment the unions won recognition and concessions that deprived the elites of a larger share of their monopolies they have been fighting to destroy the unions to maximize the share of their profits.

Pretty much the same way the elites have been working to take our liberties away in general through unconstituitional laws passed by corrupt law makers.

Our economy and country is in shambles for one reason.

We don't fight for our freedoms and liberty, we fight against one another about why some believe we should give up our freedoms and liberties because the people trying to steal them from us have promised some imaginary security and reprieve from the fears they create in their efforts to take away our freedoms and liberty.

Your Father's dream lived, is the American dream and there is no valid excuse in a world abundunt with wealth for anyone willing to work and do so honestly and peacably should not enjoy at least that standard of living you described.

Thanks so much for your post.

reply to post by 31337

personally I don't think any of them (banks, car makers, whoever) should get the bailout money, I don't think homeowners who gambled with their homes should be getting a break either. We all know that something isn't right here. Something smells funny and it isn't the elephant in the room. What it comes down to is somebody is getting paid and this person/group of people whoever they are and whatever they do have the leverage to get the President and the Congress (both President Bush and Obama) to go along with it. Where is this money going to and more importantly where is it coming from?

This is the amazing thing, the money is all about show. It's a flat paper currency with an imagined agreed upon value between competitors in a game between each other, that those of us dependent upon this currency to buy and trade must play as pawns.

The currency is not backed by gold or land or anything tangible of value.

We are forced to borrow this currency first as individuals to become enslaved to employers and corporations that control the flow of goods, resources and services.

Now we are being forced to borrow this monopoly currency collectively as a nation to become enslaved as a nation as well.

They do this because you might have been a bit better than a pawn in their game. Through individual luck or skill or determination or cheating you achieved more than a pawn should in the game.

They can't take it away from you individualy as there is no mechanism for that in the game rules because you basically played by the rules. They can't send you to jail and sue you for that. They can't knock on your door and take it away by indiscriminate force.

So they are going to take it away from you collectively by increasing your overall burden by forcing you to borrow collectively to have a little more play money to play the game as a pawn for their benefit a little while longer, but as is always the case in this game, with a little bit less and a little less security and a lot more unbalancing fear that causes you to submit to the manipulations and rules that result in your privations.

Who is getting all this money.

That's the part we all choose not to admit. No one is really getting this money because this money is not real.

This money is the mark of our enslavement. It is the brand of our Master.

No one is in fact getting anything, a few though are gaining an ever deepening submission to their mastery and dominance over us by watching in sheer delight as we picker amongst ourselves who should give up what and who should die amongst the have nots, while we look to our Masters not for freedom or vengence but authority and direction as to who must give up what and who amongst us must die to compensate for their greed of breeding us like weeds to feed their egos and underground vaults full of the gold and precious metals and gems our play money is not attached too.

Originally posted by Tyr Sog
I never said I worked for the auto industry.

I am sorry, I had you mixed up with Cecilmeyer, you all should really get avatars.

Originally posted by Tyr Sog
This was a loan, not a bail out.

Unlike the bank bailout, for which the banks had to turn over preferred stock, and will pay it back once they can eliminate the real property they are sitting on, I have not seen any such thing mentioned for the auto industry.

Besides this factor, as others have already mentioned, the auto industry was barely making before this happened. In order for them to be profitable they need to massively cut the chaff, or they will continue to produce substandard products. You can only have so much outlay of money, then you have to cut costs from somewhere, and up until now they have done so through use of inferior materials. If they keep going the way they are you'll be paying out 50K for a paper-mache vehicle.

The only way that this is going to be reversed is by busting down the unions, and bringing the salaries/benefits/pensions under control, or by going bankrupt and starting over as new companies. As both myself and other have mentioned, this has been a long time in coming, and I could not understand how they could even turn a profit back when I worked for them.

Originally posted by Tyr Sog
Aside from that IMO this messely $18billion(out of trillions) is about as close as middle class America is going to get to benefit from this money stolen from us.

Hardly.
Its not going to do anything for the states that are not supported by the auto industry. Believe it or not, the majority of the US is not supported or even much effected by them. You all seem to like to throw out the support jobs, like the after-market companies, yet these would not only still exist, but would profit even more so as they became the primary source of many parts.

Originally posted by Tyr Sog
I'm glad to hear you picked a secure field to work in. Maybe not so secure if the big 3 go down and all of their insured workers go with it but no need to worry about that just yet.

It would have negligible effect on people who don't live in Detroit or Ohio.

Originally posted by Tyr Sog
I just find it funny and sad that you actually envy, despise, hold resentment towards, etc, etc towards a line worker because of their salary. That's pretty petty.

I don't hate them or hold resentment toward them, I simply don't feel that its fair for them to take public money and continue on like its business as usual at their overinflated salaries. I feel that if they are going to take money form the government that they should have to follow the same rules that government union employees have to follow.

The unions have blackmailed the auto companies for years with labor strikes, now they see a chance to do the exact same thing with the government money using the auto companies as a buffer between them and the rules. Why should that be allowed to happen?

The Auto companies should have to do exactly like the average family out there and try and tighten their own belt before seeking public assistance, to me this is just common sense. I do not understand how anyone could feel contrary to this unless they had a vested interest in receiving financial gain from that money. How dare they as for public assistance until they have exhausted all efforts to try and reign in their own excesses first. I feel the same way about any company seeking public aid. The government had to step in with the banks, however, because in trying to save their own companies the credit flow came to a halt.

Originally posted by Tyr Sog
Anyways, for me, I wouldn't do their job for $50-70 grand/yr. To hit those marks most line workers are working 12hrs/day, 6days/week. For what, to get home and S-S-Shave, eat and go to bed? Look forward to Sunday only? No thanks, they can have that crap work and they earn every bit of their decent wage(although most arn't making that any more or working those kind of hours anymore).

I don't know where you got that from but its WAY wrong. They work a 9 hour shift, with ample breaks throughout the day, any overtime they volunteer for is paid as overtime. Many choose to work the overtime because the money is so good. They get personal time off, sick time, vacation time, and retooling time which equates to over a month and a half of days off a year, and that gets higher with more years in. Besides this the line workers are only a fraction of the people that are employed there, and not necessarily the people I have an issue with. The type of people I have a problem with are the folks like the union technicians who do nothing 99% of the time, the guys who make 180K a year to do nothing but sit there in case a machine breaks down. There are more of these folks then there are actual assembly line workers. The line workers probably make up less then 1/10 of the automotive industry workers.


[edit on 2/8/2009 by defcon5]

reply to post by bubbabuddha

Wake up America, we appear to have a great deal of effort being made by people to cover up their crimes of the past 25 years, should we allow them to escape from the jaws of defeat? The idea of large government has failed and now they are trying to make it impossible for anyone to know this or even ask the right questions. Put the brakes on these government pirates before it maybe too late, we have to hold them accountable.

Thanks for the great post. I could not agree with you more. These skull and bonesmen are in fact pirates. The government is in many ways the mafia. Just as in many ways they collude with organized crime to reap maximum profits of the legal and illegal sides of the coin by first drawing a distinction between the two that is often an infringement on the citizens rights and illegal in a sense itself. How on earth could a bush growing from the earth be illegal?

I hope more of us can wake up and join you in understanding the malice and evil involved in this madness and deception and join together to end it once and for all.

Thanks again.

What I find funny is that,I work for a company in Ohio that makes parts for honda.We make an average of 20 to 30 dollars an hour.But our sister company down south gets paid half of we make in Ohio.But if our company moves to South Texas,they pay their workers about 8 dollars an hour.After that they move to Mexico ,where they pay their workers, 8 dollars a day.While at the same time the workers at honda in Ohio,that we work for are getting payed at least twice as much as we are getting paid.

[edit on 8-2-2009 by icybluebeing]

[edit on 8-2-2009 by icybluebeing]

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen

Let me stop you right there. Detroit was hardly a "Profitable Industry Prior to the Lending Crisis". They in fact had a major loss of Profit, and one of the reasons was due to their lack of ingenuity. Whereas Toyota, Nissan, and other Japanese Auto manufacturers could build One or Two Prototypes before Full Line Manufacturing, the U.S. Automakers were going through anywhere from Seven to Ten Prototype Models in order to attain a Production Model.

Alright now is where I need to stop a few people and give you skeptics some real cause to think.

There are no Japanese or Korean Car companies!

Let it sink in a minute. Are they imaginary?

No…but after we bombed Japan and nuked Japan back to the stone age who do you think built it back up again?

Who occupied it while it was being built up again? The United States of America Army occupied Japan while American businessmen were helping to set up and organize companies like Toyota and Nissan.

Now you are going to scream prove it!

I don’t even have to do much but drop a couple names like Art Moran and Rick Hendricks.

Who are they? They just happen to be exclusive distributors of Toyota in regional zones in America. Every Toyota sold in America first passes through the hands of one of four Americans. Four Americans who forged a relationship with Toyota right after World War II, four Americans who are in fact Toyota.

America is the biggest car market in the world. Japan does not sell Toyotas here. One of four Americans provides Toyotas to be sold here. Toyota would be nothing without the American market, but these four men control the American market. They are Toyota, and the decision to put a little more technology and better press and a few components that could be pointed to as being better quality to justify the better press reviews is in fact a conspiracy in and of itself.

The decision to not employ that technology and manufacturing improvements here in America first is a conspiracy in and of itself.

America needs to wake up and realize something. American military, weapon and aviation, optical, nuclear and space technology leads the world constantly in cutting edge innovation and functional ability.

Does anyone really think based on that fact alone that we can not design a superior car?

It’s about robbing you this way or that way. It’s about sucking money out of the economy. It’s about lowering wages by breaking the unions. It’s about getting your business coming and going.

Toyota, Honda, Hyundai all have a handful of American distributors who the American Dealerships have to buy these cars from. They aren’t purchased by the dealers directly from Toyota, Honda or Hyundai like American Manufactures sell direct to their dealers. They can only be obtained through these exclusive American brokers and distributors who own the rights for life and to pass them on to their designated heirs.

News Flash, we conquered Japan and most of Germany in 1945 and still occupy them militarily to this day. There really is no sovereign Japan or Germany just like there really is no sovereign United States anymore. A bunch of bankers forcing us to borrow fake money collectively to give to them own all these things, please consider actually looking deeper in to how deeply we are being manipulated and deceived.

You can deny what I have just posted here but that won’t make our Military bases in Japan and Germany fold up shop. You can deny what I have just posted here but it won’t make men like Art Moran and Rick Hendricks any poorer or less powerful or keep them from controlling Toyota by controlling Toyota’s most vital and profitable market.

It’s alright to get it and stop denying it. Life might actually get better!

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
I believe that your ire is misdirected. Perhaps the REAL question you should be asking is "Why do police, nurses, teachers, and others make so little?"

Simple really.
They make so little because they owe a civic duty that handicaps their unions ability to negotiate better money for them. If these unions cannot strike out of civic duty, then I feel that groups like the UAW should be held to similar rules. That would have kept the wages leveled on a proper playing field.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
Furthermore, to stereotype auto workers the way you have is wrong.

I have not stereotyped anyone, I have simply stated my personal observations from the time I worked there.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
No company or industry has a monopoly on the characteristics that you describe.

Then you have never worked around a hardcore union my friend. These abuses are not the employees choice all the time, because many are actually union rules. For example, yes playing cards half the day is a personal choice, but flagging equipment INOP because it was handled by someone non-union is a union rule. It does not matter to them what it costs to company, the union rules come first to them not the company. Then you add the other abuses that they can get away with on top of that, and you have a perfect storm of waste.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Excellent post, PT! Your points hit the nail on the head. I believe that your attitude is the attitude that all people should have. Furthermore, your point about the bosses making so much more than the worker is right on, also:

Thank you so much Professor, I always so appreciate it when you can share your insights, vast knowledge and observations in the ever so polite and cordial way you do with friend and respected foe alike.

I so admire people not afraid and willing to make a difference for the better.

Thanks for the great links.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

First and foremost is my own belief as a friend I always want to help other friends up if they are down.

What is down? Down doesn’t necessarily mean on their luck. In a competitive world based on numbers, down is just less than someone else that has more. You would like to make 35,000 instead of 25,000 or have 3 bedrooms instead of 2, or 4 doors instead of 2, or a 2008 model instead of a 1991. We live in a competitive world where most people always would like to have more.

More and more people do not have enough. They have 6 people crammed in to the 2 bedrooms, and the 25,000 does not feed or cloth them very well and offers them scant recreation and leisure opportunities. They climb in over the back seat of that old car because it gets them there but they sure could use the convenience of 4 doors, and occasional mechanical breakdowns of an old car create unforeseen expenses that because things are so tight and transportation so vital creates a real emergency when that costly repair happens unexpectedly.

They aren’t starving, they are healthy and clean, and happy enough for all the hardships but they are down. Down on the bottom rung of society, where they work every day at an honest job with an honest effort, and most of life revolves just around that effort because even though they are free and live in a free society, most everything costs money and well, they just don’t have much.

And how exactly does this apply to the folks we are talking about who are in the upper 60% of the salary average for this country?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The idea that many have that the auto workers are overpaid and should make significant wage concessions to lower themselves to be on par with unorganized labor and to lower their own quality of life along with it is pushing or pulling someone down.

We are not talking about the poor old coal miners who owed there soul to the company store here. We are talking about people who make at least double the national average salary.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Who convinces other people that the person who is making a little too much should be making less, less like everyone else?

When your company is going bankrupt and is having to ask for public assistance, I think that a salary reduction goes without saying.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
They say if everyone was paid on a scale of the person who makes a little too much then there would be inflation. Prices would have to go up. You really wouldn’t becoming ahead you would end up loosing!

That is exactly what happens. Its easier and more efficient to bring one groups salary down toward the national average then to inflate the national average thus causing inflation. This is common sense.

You ever read hitchikers guide to the galaxy, where the folks make leaves their money? Same thing would happen here.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Microsoft has made billions upon billions upon billions of dollars. Most of it now out of circulation in the economy. No one can spend that money to STIMULATE the economy. Exxon has made billions upon billions upon billions of dollars. Most of it now out of circulation in the economy. No one can spend that money to STIMULATE the economy. Wal-Mart has made billions upon billions upon billions of dollars. Most of it now out of circulation in the economy. Why are all these billions of dollars out of circulation in the economy? Because that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a very small group of individuals who simply have no need imagined or real to spend it all, so how did they earn it all?

No argument here, all the water is on one side of the bucket, and something needs to even it out some. On the other hand if you increase wages, then the cost of living goes up a corresponding amount. Eventually the system has to break down, and reset, I don't think that there is anything that can prevent this from occurring. That is the problem with Fiat money, since there is not a finite substance that it is attached to it becomes like the leaves I mentioned above. Even if it was a finite substance, I think we would be in a similar but slightly different situation. We would not have enough money to go around and the value of that remaining money would go up, however, since we have to much its going down. If we add more, its value depreciates even further. I don't think its the New World Order or anything else behind this, I believe that it is something that just naturally happens in an monetary system.

You claim that as these corporations make profits that they sit on them, but I believe that is incorrect, they have to pay those profits out as dividends to the shareholders.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Paying people doesn’t cause inflation.

Yes it does. If everyone had a million dollars in the bank it would be the equivalent of everyone having 1 unit of currency. The money would deflate in value and the price of goods would inflate.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Maximizing profits by not paying people a fair wage and then forcing them to borrow to supplement and enhance their lifestyles is what creates inflation.

No that causes deflation as the dollar is harder for the common man to get, it increases in value. When there is too much money, and its easy to come by, prices inflate as the value of the dollar drops.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am here to tell you that is what’s called ENDENTURED SERVITUDE and was outlawed in this country a few centuries ago.

Nope, its not.
Nobody is twisting your arm to buy services from the company you work for, so its not the same thing. Indentured Servitude, or the the “company store”, is were you owe back to the same person you work for the exact same amount (or more) then what your salary is. No one is forcing you to have to buy cable, internet, computer, or car. No one is making you not go out and live like the Amish if you wish to.
If you feel that you are trapped, its simply because you trapped yourself in that situation. For example, tomorrow I could bug outta here with only what I can carry on my back and most likely survive just fine. I owe no one, my stuff is all long since payed off, and I don't live outside my means, everything else is simply creature comforts. The truth is that the common man today is so used to his comforts that in his mind they are necessity.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
THEIR CREDIT RATING IS MORE VITAL TO THEIR SURVIVAL THAN THEIR SKILL SET THAT EARNS THE LOW WAGE THAT FORCES THEM TO BORROW.

If someone is stuck in the credit trap then that is no ones fault but their own. If you live inside your means you will never have that problem.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
They are trained to pay their Masters on time or risk being cut off from this vital source of money often required for household emergencies, major purchases and day to day survival expenses on occasion.

Again maybe you have a problem with understanding the difference between vital services and creature comforts. Besides this none of this applies to the OP which is about the autoworkers who make WAY more then most of the US population anyway. This poor me act is getting almost as old as you staring everyones posts who support the UAW stance.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
You are taught to decry and despise those people who make a little too much, you are even taught to believe that if those people who make a little too much are blamed for a bad economy that not only should they make less, but that you too might need in order too keep anything at all accept making a little less now too. Many people will accept making a little less now too in order to not loose that job or credit rating.

You are really pushing the boundaries of reality in trying to show why you guys need to make so much more then the rest of us and use our money to support your salaries. You perception of the world is so far off kilter that its not even funny anymore. Maybe you should learn what it means to live in real hardship, then see how serious you take the crap you are writing here.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Now all of a sudden everyone is making too little to buy things and keep the economy going.

Yeah, all the non-autoworkers who are being asked to support you guys in your comparative affluence.


I think this is going to be my last post, at least for now, since obviously reality is lost on you guys as you've been spoiled too long. You all can sit in here and pat each other on the back about how bad you have it only making double what the currant average American is, and how you may not be able to survive without your air conditioning, Internet service, and plasma TV.

reply to post by icybluebeing


That is Union Inflation of salaries and EXACTLY what I am talking about. The reason why they get paid so much less in the South is that many southern states have anti-union open house laws on the books. The UAW is all for this bialout because they see it as a way to get even more money from the government. Filling their own pockets even more so then the pockets of their employees.

reply to post by defcon5

This poor me act is getting almost as old as you staring everyones posts who support the UAW stance.

Actually I starred all your posts yesterday too. I generally star everyone who leaves a post on a thread I started unless they have been impolite or deliberately rude in sharing their views. I haven’t gotten to your posts yet today because the volume of them is to numerous to reply to with priority as it would exclude other people being responded to in a timely way.

This is a typical tactic of disinformation agents as they attempt to bog down the direction of the thread to suit their agenda and get maximum exposure for their message and view.

Any post of yours that just has one star I starred it.

You are really pushing the boundaries of reality in trying to show why you guys need to make so much more then the rest of us and use our money to support your salaries. You perception of the world is so far off kilter that its not even funny anymore. Maybe you should learn what it means to live in real hardship, then see how serious you take the crap you are writing here.

First off I do not work for the United Auto Workers. I do not work for a car dealership. I do not sell cars. I am not a mechanic.

I am a self employed work at home free lance consultant and designer and I have no salary and I couldn’t afford to show up for work with what the UAW guys make. I would stay home and starve before I would bother with all the rig amoral for that. My perception of the world is in part formed by the elites as several have been clients of mine over the years. I consider an elite anyone who has a membership card to the Bohemian Club in their wallet. I work with people in many industries automobiles happen to be one of them.

I once slept for six months in a public park in Los Angeles while working a part time job in the evening, and going to a vocational school in the morning. Is that a hard enough hardship for you?

Yeah, all the non-autoworkers who are being asked to support you guys in your comparative affluence. I think this is going to be my last post, at least for now, since obviously reality is lost on you guys as you've been spoiled too long. You all can sit in here and pat each other on the back about how bad you have it only making double what the currant average American is, and how you may not be able to survive without your air conditioning, Internet service, and plasma TV.

Once again I am not a UAW worker. I work for myself. Once again I begrudge no one a living wage. We are talking on the Internet and you live in Florida so I am sure your Air-conditioning works just fine, I don't watch TV, one of my clients makes subliminal messages for Hollywood for a living.

You are very welcome to share your opinions and comments but just like my posts they are just opinions and comments. Neither of us has definitive answers on this subject as neither of us are in the Automotive Manufacturing business as the manufacturer, or in congress as a lawmaker voting on a bail out, or an elite that could be driving the whole process.

Again maybe you have a problem with understanding the difference between vital services and creature comforts. Besides this none of this applies to the OP which is about the autoworkers who make WAY more then most of the US population anyway.

Once again no the OP is not about the Auto Workers please reread and explain to me where you are getting that idea from.

The original post had you actually read it is could the reluctance to grant a bail out to the auto makers be a way of shutting down the rest of the independent press. You have attempted to make the post about your apparent vendetta against the UAW and anyone who makes more money than you with a lesser education. I think you should be complaining to your college or university about that not to the UAW.

If someone is stuck in the credit trap then that is no ones fault but their own. If you live inside your means you will never have that problem.

I agree unfortunately Madison Avenue does not, and will bombard you night and day in every effort to make sure you do not with advertising and entertainment offerings making a richer lifestyle appear more common than it is.

Having said that I personally draw little distinction between the easily tempted who lack self discipline and the flat liners who have no passion or compassion.

If you feel that you are trapped, its simply because you trapped yourself in that situation. For example, tomorrow I could bug outta here with only what I can carry on my back and most likely survive just fine. I owe no one, my stuff is all long since payed off, and I don't live outside my means, everything else is simply creature comforts. The truth is that the common man today is so used to his comforts that in his mind they are necessity.

I follow a Zen like philosophy myself. Sadly the people who run the world do not.

No that causes deflation as the dollar is harder for the common man to get, it increases in value. When there is too much money, and its easy to come by, prices inflate as the value of the dollar drops.

You seem to have a real problem with the common man, him making any significant amount of money, or him making more than you. Your chosen fields of education in engineering and health have not seemed to pay off to well for you. I am sorry, but clearly you are no economist. You seem only interested in decrying the UAW and encouraging ‘common’ people to earn or spend money in any excess.

Yes it does. If everyone had a million dollars in the bank it would be the equivalent of everyone having 1 unit of currency. The money would deflate in value and the price of goods would inflate.

Well that’s some pretty faulty logic since almost everyone has 1 dollar which is 1 unit of currency. I am advocating a living wage not gifting of wealth. You seem to have the two confused.

reply to post by defcon5

You claim that as these corporations make profits that they sit on them, but I believe that is incorrect, they have to pay those profits out as dividends to the shareholders.

There are two kinds of stocks most corporations offer, common and preferred. Elites own preferred and the company, commoners own common and a little piece of pretty fancy paper that might have a tiny check show up each year with it. The stock market is simply a way to entice those with too much cash to part with it. If you are buying common stock in a company you own nothing but a stake in a game that is equivalent to a black jack table seat in Las Vegas. Stay in it long enough odds are you are going to loose.

That is exactly what happens. Its easier and more efficient to bring one groups salary down toward the national average then to inflate the national average thus causing inflation. This is common sense.

One should not confuse common thinking with common sense. The fact that you prefer taking the easy way out and knocking people back, instead of wanting to take the hard road of helping everyone up is common but based on the state of the world is in because of that thinking is not very sensible.

When your company is going bankrupt and is having to ask for public assistance, I think that a salary reduction goes without saying.

A wealth of information has been presented to you outlining a world wide economic crisis creating catastrophe for many businesses because consumers have no money or credit to circulate through the economy. No money is circulating through the economy because people are not paid a living wage by the few thousand people who control most of the world’s companies and horde most of it’s currency and resources.

You are blinded to this by your vendetta against the UAW. This thread is not about the UAW.

We are not talking about the poor old coal miners who owed there soul to the company store here. We are talking about people who make at least double the national average salary.

I feel very badly for you that you begrudge the initiative and self respect these people have shown for their work and time and how that has paid off for them versus the people who do not want to put in the initiative to making sure they are respected with adequate compensation for their services. Your message keeps coming across as everyone should be poor. I don’t agree.

And how exactly does this apply to the folks we are talking about who are in the upper 60% of the salary average for this country?

Once again this post is not about the UAW. The auto manufacturers are not having the problems they are having because of the UAW but the economy in general. The economy is in bad shape because people do not believe in the necessity for a living wage and that it has to be demanded and fought for if you hope to ever earn one.







[edit on 8/2/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
One should not confuse common thinking with common sense. The fact that you prefer taking the easy way out and knocking people back, instead of wanting to take the hard road of helping everyone up is common but based on the state of the world is in because of that thinking is not very sensible.

What I am saying is that your method of helping everyone up will not do anything other then cause additional inflation.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
A wealth of information has been presented to you outlining a world wide economic crisis creating catastrophe for many businesses because consumers have no money or credit to circulate through the economy.

That is because everyone lived the high life for the last 15 years and are now in debt up to their eyeballs. Now the ride is over and many don't want to pay for the over indulgent lifestyles they have lead up until now. So they are all defaulting on the credit and loans that they owe on. I know this because my situation has remained pretty well constant throughout most that time, I have received the same income, and simply didn't borrowed myself into debt buying unnecessary consumer junk. Things got a bit tighter when the gas was expensive, but I simply did not do an much driving during that period.

I went through my tough patch back when the computer market crashed, and no one came charging to their defense. I learned to tighten the belt, I learned what necessity is, and I think it might be a good lesson for some of the posters on this thread to learn as well.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
No money is circulating through the economy because people are not paid a living wage by the few thousand people who control most of the world’s companies and horde most of it’s currency and resources.

The money is not circulating because the credit froze up, the credit froze up because people stopped paying on what they owed, people stopped paying because they got themselves into credit debt beyond what their means were. Its always easy to blame someone else, but that is not really where this problem started now is it?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
You are blinded to this by your vendetta against the UAW. This thread is not about the UAW.

Actually I did not bring up the UAW, someone else did. I have already mentioned that its all the workers in that field who are excessively overpaid. I even added engineers to the list of salaries, and they are not even union people in several of the automotive corporations, they are white collar workers. There are also several different unions in the auto industry and if you look I even mentioned others such as the union electricians. What I do have a problem with is union tactics in general, and this is coming from someone who in his youth was a Shop Stewart.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I feel very badly for you that you begrudge the initiative and self respect these people have shown for their work and time and how that has paid off for them versus the people who do not want to put in the initiative to making sure they are respected with adequate compensation for their services.

I don't consider that making double the national average is “adequate compensation” for a company asking financial assistance from those who make half of what they make.

What is so darn difficult for you to understand about this?
You must have been one of those spoiled kids who still asked for stuff when he knew that his parents were in financial difficulty. It was just expected as your adequate compensation for being brought into this world.

See, this is part of what I saw when I worked there, this attitude that the Big Three were these never ending pockets that everyone could just stick there arms into up to their shoulder, and here is that exact same attitude here. You want to know the reality of the situation: your company is not preforming well, thus employees are not preforming well, and therefore their “ Adequate Compensation” should decrease accordingly.

Instead I keep seeing this attitude that “well the company has soooooo much money that they are hoarding so they can continue to pay us like they do”. Well if they have that much money, then I guess they don't need our tax dollars to help them out of the hole.

The other attitude I see in this thread is”Well we can help the economy get better by paying more to us autoworkers, so we can go out and spend more on ourselves and thus stimulate the economy”... Who chose you guys to reap personal benefits off the rest of our tax money, and why do you feel its owed to you? I say give the money to the Wal-Mart employees, let them go stimulate the economy, they deserve it more as they a have been much more downtrodden over the years. I certainly have not heard a song on the radio about the plight of the poor downtrodden Wal-Mart employees.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Your message keeps coming across as everyone should be poor. I don’t agree.

So making say... 40-50K /year is poor when the national average is 36K? How do you justify making double that amount of money and crying poor? These guys are making 55-90K minimum, and to be honest with you I think that average is on the low side from what I saw.

You have a strange sense of the poverty level.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Once again this post is not about the UAW. The auto manufacturers are not having the problems they are having because of the UAW but the economy in general.

They were in trouble BEFORE the current recession, they borrowed money BEFORE the bialouts already.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The economy is in bad shape because people do not believe in the necessity for a living wage and that it has to be demanded and fought for if you hope to ever earn one.

Double the national average is not a “necessity living wage” it is an “excessive living wage”.

I know though, its a struggle to get by on only about double of what the rest of the US makes per year.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
This is a typical tactic of disinformation agents as they attempt to bog down the direction of the thread to suit their agenda and get maximum exposure for their message and view.

Now we have disinformation agents in this thread...
You honestly think the government is trying to derail your thread and trying to keep you down?
Which is more likely: A) there is some government plot to keep the autoworkers down, even though they JUST gave them 17 billion tax payer dollars so they can sit and continue making vast amounts of money producing cars that no one is buying, or B) that there is simply someone out here, with some common sense, who disagrees with giving them more money to waste?

The wise money is on B my friend.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am a self employed work at home free lance consultant and designer and I have no salary and I couldn’t afford to show up for work with what the UAW guys make.

Well I have a news flash for you then, because most people don't make anywhere near the money that those guys make.

I am not saying you, and I am not saying me, but the average American.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I once slept for six months in a public park in Los Angeles while working a part time job in the evening, and going to a vocational school in the morning. Is that a hard enough hardship for you?

Yeah, and after that you still see nothing wrong with paying people who are producing nothing at the moment, living off the governments dime, and making more then the rest of the country?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
you live in Florida so I am sure your Air-conditioning works just fine.

I really don't use it that much and don't have that high of an energy bill. I spend as much time camping as I can, so I have no problem with being out in the heat. I don't even use the AC in my car, unless its raining and the windows fog up I just drive with my windows down.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
one of my clients makes subliminal messages for Hollywood for a living.

I don't watch much TV myself, I either read or am on the computer. Interesting though, I would like to hear more about these messages.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The original post had you actually read it is could the reluctance to grant a bail out to the auto makers be a way of shutting down the rest of the independent press.

Yeah I did read it. You should go re-read it yourself because it comes off as being about why the bailout should be allowed to happen, more then anything else, IMHO.

Though as already mentioned it has already happened, they got a nice big chunk of change. I think the rest was simply normal thread drift. It happens in all threads as people focus on this issue or that of the OP.
The drift started here: www.abovetopsecret.com... and www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
You have attempted to make the post about your apparent vendetta against the UAW and anyone who makes more money than you with a lesser education

Not at all, as a matter of fact I am doing pretty well ATM, thanks...

The issue I have is with people using tax dollars yet continuing to pull more income then the rest of the general public. I have an issue with the Unions using the auto manufacturers as a buffer to get more money from the government by bypassing the rules that government unions have to adhere to. I have issue with paying out good money that is simply going to go to waste as they cannot move any of the product they are currently producing. I have an issue with the fact that everyone here was just forced to buy an American car (which is what you will pay by the time that loan is paid off), that none us will physically receive, simply because we refused to go out and buy one from the dealership during this recession.

Personally, I don't CARE what the UAW guys make, as long as they don't make it OFF OUR TAX DOLLARS!!!

YOU GET ME NOW!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I agree unfortunately Madison Avenue does not, and will bombard you night and day in every effort to make sure you do not with advertising and entertainment offerings making a richer lifestyle appear more common than it is.

Maybe I have no problem with this, because like you, I watch very little TV.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
You seem to have a real problem with the common man, him making any significant amount of money, or him making more than you.

AGAIN...
I don't care what they make, as long as they are not having to take our tax money to support their income. Again this is no more or no less then them living on Unemployment at 100% their normal salary.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
encouraging ‘common’ people to earn or spend money in any excess.

If you mean live within your means, and use common sense... Then yes.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Well that’s some pretty faulty logic since almost everyone has 1 dollar which is 1 unit of currency. I am advocating a living wage not gifting of wealth. You seem to have the two confused.

What I am explaining is that if everyone had $1 million dollars in the bank the dollar is common and inflation goes up while value goes down; if everyone only had $1 in the bank then the dollar is rare and inflation comes down while value goes up.

reply to post by defcon5

What I am saying is that your method of helping everyone up will not do anything other then cause additional inflation.

Once again you miss the point. If the obscene profit margins are eliminated that lead to so much of the world's wealth becoming concentrated in too few hands there would be no inflation. You are stuck on the idea that letting less than 3,000 people control 95% of the worlds wealth and the entire world suffering so they can as the only way the world can be managed.

This is the faultiest logic I can imagine. Which of course is why its been so drilled into your head by the powers that be that it is impossible for you to comprehend the scenario that you imagine would lead to this inflation and some percieved loss instead of a real gain has never happened and will never happen because you are afraid of a prosperous people and planet, but instead are used to the misery of poverty and believing people should live in poverty that you fear having that familiarity taken from you.

fear of loss and change is what causes most people to stagnate in life, bog down in a morass of flawed and circular logic and embrace their own misery as the only course in life.

PROFITS NEED TO BE CUT not wages.

reply to post by defcon5

That is because everyone lived the high life for the last 15 years and are now in debt up to their eyeballs. Now the ride is over and many don't want to pay for the over indulgent lifestyles they have lead up until now. So they are all defaulting on the credit and loans that they owe on. I know this because my situation has remained pretty well constant throughout most that time, I have received the same income, and simply didn't borrowed myself into debt buying unnecessary consumer junk. Things got a bit tighter when the gas was expensive, but I simply did not do an much driving during that period.

A vast majority of Americans did not live the 'high' life as you describe it, their shrinking real wage eroded by how the government actually hides inflation forced the poorest people to borrow.

What you don't quite seem to appreciate is someone has to actually work at the lesser skilled menial jobs that we all rely on being performed to keep the infrastructure and life going.

You seem to think its a great idea they not be compensated for that and live substandard lives while one man alone has horded so much wealth for centuries it could feed the entire planet for a lifetime and then some.

Your understanding of the rules men like that want you to follow to play the game of life that they administer too is confusing you with what is correct per the rules and what is right per humanity.

You seem pretty lost in my humble oppinion and I do not mean that disrespectfully, just that it seems to be beyond your capacity of reasoning to imagine that NO ONE should ever have to go HUNGRY or without adequate shelter.

TOO MANY PEOPLE DO AND THE NUMBER IS GROWING RAPIDLY

Basing your solutions for the entire world upon what has gotten you through the game in a style you deem acceptable is in fact what entrenches the foolish fear of hypothetical scenarios like NO, People have to be poor so the rich can be rich.

Your approach of silent suffering and sucking it in is exactly what enables the powers that be to rake in the obscene profits they do to keep people living on a fearful edge of a bleak existence willing to do almost anything to see that it gets no bleaker, but willing to do almost nothing to make it get better.

You like most people are simply your own worst enemies when it comes to attaining both true understanding and prosperity.

Trust me the world could have afforded to treat you better and pay you better and would be doing a lot better had it done so.

reply to post by defcon5

The money is not circulating because the credit froze up, the credit froze up because people stopped paying on what they owed, people stopped paying because they got themselves into credit debt beyond what their means were. Its always easy to blame someone else, but that is not really where this problem started now is it?

Your logic is amazing. If people are paid a living wage they don't need credit. For every person you can display that bought a plasma TV that could not afford it, I can show you ten people who simply had to rely on credit for gasoline and food to actually survive.

I never use credit for anything and don't even believe in the idea of it.

You see what you don't get my friend if THERE WAS NO CREDIT and PEOPLE COULD NOT AFFORD TO LIVE OFF OF THEIR WAGES they would actually quit that job, organize or strike in order to survive.

CREDIT IS THE MEANS THE ENABLES ALL EMPLOYERS TO PAY LESS THAN A LIVING WAGE AND RAKE IN THE OBSCENE PROFITS THEY DO THAT ALLOW THEM TO HORDE WEALTH AND ENSLAVE PEOPLE THROUGH CREDIT.

There are no legitimate solutions to an illigitimate system and because you can't comprehend the morality of the powers that be you are unable to comprehend this concept.

No one should have ever had to borrow a thing...EVER and they wouldn't ever have too if humans showed a greater propensity for compassion versus greed and stupitidy.

reply to post by defcon5

Actually I did not bring up the UAW, someone else did. I have already mentioned that its all the workers in that field who are excessively overpaid. I even added engineers to the list of salaries, and they are not even union people in several of the automotive corporations, they are white collar workers. There are also several different unions in the auto industry and if you look I even mentioned others such as the union electricians. What I do have a problem with is union tactics in general, and this is coming from someone who in his youth was a Shop Stewart.

Please...your dislike of the UAW as well as American automobiles has been the centerpiece of your agenda. When you start assuming someone works for an orginization just because they don't share the same venom for it is pretty indicative of a bias so deep that reason isn't going to ever be something considered when you indulge those emotions.

I don't think you quite comprehend how the Unions were born and how they have been fought against.

As labor began to organize in the early 20th century violence employed by the powers that be created a bleak situation for organizers and strikers. While the powers that be were able to often fire into crowds of strikers and have union organizers murdered with little chance of prosecution because of their individual wealth and influence, organized criminal elements saw an opportunity to infiltrate both sides of the coin.

It works pretty much like this. Mr. Carnegie, you have a problem. Your security gaurds can keep shooting these guys but the fact is no steel is coming off the line right now and the furnaces are cold. If you let these guys organize and pay them a little more because we (mafia) will fght back with violence and give the illusion that we(mafia) will champion and protect them for a price, then eventually you can stop these movements because of our criminal involvement in them. We (mafia) will convince the unions we are on their side exclusively and they will pay the price for that eventually as their leaders are rounded up for the criminal activities we the mafia carry out through how we will force them to administer and organize their unions.

In exchange Mr. Carnegie we mafia want some specified jobs that we can exploit for cash. You give us certain sales reps jobs and we are going to charge a cash kickback to some of your customers to get their steel first and on time, or quicker, or a little cheaper. We also want some ghost employee jobs to make it look like we mafia are employed legally. In this manner you will be able to get your factories moving again and control the unions through us and eventually set up the mechanism to destroy organize labor.

Then they turn around and say for example: Mr. Hoffa we will keep those people who would take the jobs of those strikers from crossing your picket lines. We have the skills and ability to do that. We will lean on management and ownership with illegal threats of violence and violence and other forms of blackmail to make them give in and allow you to unionize, and meet your demands. We will protect you too Mr. Hoffa from being retaliated against through violence or blackmail too because of the success you will enjoy in organizing your work force and controlling it. In exchange we need a few specified jobs for some of our people to make it appear that the make a legal living and to justify their presnece when some heads need to be busted by them or they need to be talked to or blackmailed. We will keep your rivals from unseating you in your control of the union.

I have worked in several industries and learned them all inside and out.

When I got in to the automotive business in the early 1990's the regional and zone reps for General Motors who determined which dealers would get what inventory were all mafia types who took bribes from the bigger wealthier dealers to deliver to them prized limited production inventory that is the source of a auto dealers most lucrative sales. They took bribes to litterally make some dealers mega dealers while those who couldn't pay the price or wouldn't pay the price had to make do less profitably with the scraps.

Simply put organized crime was aiding the powers that be by playing both sides of the fence but earning their livings by running the unions in a way that would lead to their unions disgrace and distrust and dislike.

For many union leaders as well as some elites they realized once in bed with the mafia it is really only possible to get out of bed with them by hopping into a coffin instead.

If you understood that the upper echelons of organized crime work hand in hand with big government and big business as well as organized labor to effect a reality on the ground then you would understand that your perception of reality is not reality. It is not reality because it misses vital elements and agendas and reasons for what oppinions you formulate absent all of the equation.

The steel workers went first in to that great good night called the rust belt.

As the powers that be closed down the steel mills and made Japan which we now control through military occupation the center of steel making it made a good fit to promote Japan to becoming the major player in the auto manufacturing business too, and not just to break up the steel and auto unions but to take advantage of the fact that it also eliminated a number of high paying semi-skilled jobs which began to set up the cycle for people needing credit to supplement income and not just to buy their house or car. It also took advantage of the vital ingredient for cars of steel by putting their production close to where steel is produced.

There was American Express and Diners Club prior to the early seventies. Both had to be paid in full at the end of each month.

Revolving credit began to appear at the same time the loss of skilled jobs in the rust belt began to climb.

It happened for one reason, the day Nixon looked out the oval office window and saw a half a million pot smoking hippies on the square across from it and asked the Secret Service how could they be stopped if they wanted to climb the fence and he was told they can't be.

That's when lowering americans standard of living became a priority and has been since. Wake up man!