Painting the sky..(pics)

Originally posted by Bangin



And now we see them talking about dispersing carbon black dust in the air:

This study by William M. Gray, et al., investigated the hypothesis that "significant beneficial influences can be derived through judicious exploitation of the solar absorption potential of carbon black dust."21 The study ultimately found that this technology could be used to enhance rainfall on the mesoscale, generate cirrus clouds, and enhance cumulonimbus (thunderstorm) clouds in otherwise dry areas.

The technology can be described as follows. Just as a black tar roof easily absorbs solar energy and subsequently radiates heat during a sunny day, carbon black also readily absorbs solar energy. When dispersed in microscopic or "dust" form in the air over a large body of water, the carbon becomes hot and heats the surrounding air, thereby increasing the amount of evaporation from the body of water below. As the surrounding air heats up, parcels of air will rise and the water vapor contained in the rising air parcel will eventually condense to form clouds. Over time the cloud droplets increase in size as more and more water vapor condenses, and eventually they become too large and heavy to stay suspended and will fall as rain or other forms of precipitation.

And perhaps the smoking gun of chemtrails, they admit (In Chapter 4) that the best way to "disperse" the carbon black dust is by using jet engines:

Numerous dispersal techniques have already been studied, but the most convenient, safe, and cost-effective method discussed is the use of afterburner-type jet engines to generate carbon particles while flying through the targeted air. This method is based on injection of liquid hydrocarbon fuel into the afterburner's combustion gases. This direct generation method was found to be more desirable than another plausible method (i.e., the transport of large quantities of previously produced and properly sized carbon dust to the desired altitude).

As you say, "C'mon! Jets leave contrails. It's water vapor, nothing more." In fact it appears to be much more.

There is also mention of using "chemical nuclei" to seed clouds in order to suppress precipitation:

If clouds were seeded (using chemical nuclei similar to those used today or perhaps a more effective agent discovered through continued research) before their downwind arrival to a desired location, the result could be a suppression of precipitation. In other words, precipitation could be "forced" to fall before its arrival in the desired territory, thereby making the desired territory "dry."

Hey I won�t deny that it is possible to do these things. There is, however a huge gap between the possible and the practical.

For instance, look at the carbon black issue. What they are talking about here is leaving a big black soot trail across the sky. Have you seen one of these lately? Furthermore, they don�t mention the altitude that this will take place at, but I imagine that it would be rather low, not at 35,000 feet. Consider also the amount of fuel they are talking about here. I don�t see the major airlines going along with this given that fuel costs are one of their major expenses.

Furthermore you are talking about a significant change to the design and operation of a jet engine. You can�t just do that without a huge number of people being in on it. You have the aircraft designers, the engineers, the mechanics, the pilots, the ground crew, etc. You have to change the aircraft certificates, operating manuals, etc. It would be pretty hard to keep something like that a secret.


Please answer one question for me.

What is the purpose of chemtrails?

Originally posted by Bangin

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
Are you honestly trying to say that before last week, airplanes over your head never left contrails that didn't dissappear directly behind the aircraft? so how long did they last before that?????

No, I'm not trying to say that.

I've seen these trails before, just not in the numbers as Dec. 4, 2003. In the past, I've reported seeing these trails in other threads.

I've seen contrails that didn't disappear directly behind the aircraft. An example would be when the craft went through a cloud, the trail would linger for a few minutes. I've never seen a contrail linger for hours and create a cloud cover....Not until 'these' started popping up.

I posted a link earlier in this thread, but it's doubtful that many of you clicked on it. I'm going to post the link again, and quote some of the material provided in the link. I urge each of you to look at the link for more information.

www.abovetopsecret.com... t=

Originally posted by MKULTRA

Moreover, developing countries also recognize the benefit of ionospheric modification: "in the early 1980's, Brazil conducted an experiment to modify the ionosphere by chemical injection."

Thoughts?

So, what is being sprayed in these skies?

Goals to 'own the weather' by 2025?! Project obviously underway, but is the method(s) harmful to us? If not, should we be told if ANYTHING is being dispersed into the skies? Absolutely.

No, you are incorrect, I did explore those links, and this is what I gathered from them. The bill we already discussed. It is not fact just because the individual who started the thread began it with, "Proof: H.R. 2977 admits existence of chemtrails and mood management weapons" It is simply not proof of anything, and as was pointed out yesterday, the reference to chemtrails was deleted from the proposal, which has still not passed, or had any action on it, for that matter....


The link to the Maxwell AFB site is indeed interesting, but it is simply a point paper, what is called in the military buisness a "Staff Summary Sheet". This one is extensive, to be sure, but it is only conjecture. It doesn't point to any actual activity, just a theory about controlling battle field conditions by controlling the weather. Simply implying that an efficient way of dispersing material into the atmosphere throught jet exhaust is no "smoking gun". A smoking gun would be finding the aircraft that would be modified for this purpose.

Clouds are seeded today to attempt to cause precipitation, and have been for years. But jet aircraft arent used, crop dusters are. And they don't seed clear blue skys, they seed CLOUDS...you would never SEE the seeding process...

If such expieriments were going on, they would absolutly NOT be done over major population centers, such as Austin and Toronto. You can't keep something secret doing it right out in the open.....

[Edited on 12-12-2003 by Affirmative Reaction]


[Edited on 12-12-2003 by Affirmative Reaction]

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Hey I won�t deny that it is possible to do these things. There is, however a huge gap between the possible and the practical.

Practical? Is it not a practicality? This sounds, to me, as if the project is underway and has been for some time now.

Originally posted by HowardRoark Furthermore, they don�t mention the altitude that this will take place at, but I imagine that it would be rather low, not at 35,000 feet.

Perhaps I'm not following your statement. People that have reported 'chemtrails' say they were rather low in the sky. Yesterday, the thought crossed my mind that I MAY just be able to reach up and touch one of the trails. Yes, it was THAT low.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Furthermore you are talking about a significant change to the design and operation of a jet engine. You can�t just do that without a huge number of people being in on it. You have the aircraft designers, the engineers, the mechanics, the pilots, the ground crew, etc. You have to change the aircraft certificates, operating manuals, etc. It would be pretty hard to keep something like that a secret.

It doesn't seem a (complete) secret at all. These seem to be plans for their journey to 'owning the weather'. Secondly, who stated that everyone is contributing to this journey? Hey, when the methods & reasons of operation are fully disclosed, if ever, then I'm sure all of our questions will be answered. I do not claim to have all of the answers.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Please answer one question for me.

What is the purpose of chemtrails?

If you know, or happen to find out, please enlighten the rest of us. At this point, weather modification seems to be the front runner. Truth be told, these methods can open a whole new door that'll lead to MANY possibilities. Either way, modifying the weather doesn't seem appropriate to me.

FYI, you quoted me in your previous post without giving credit to the true author, MKULTRA. Just letting people know that I didn't try to swipe him for his great research.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
If such expieriments were going on, they would absolutly NOT be done over major population centers, such as Austin and Toronto. You can't keep something secret doing it right out in the open.....

Of course not! They would never do such a thing.

"You can't keep something secret doing it right out in the open??"

Oh, dear..You'd be surprised what Americans neglect to notice...well, at least I was.

because people none the wiser would just pass them off... as contrails from an aircraft

Originally posted by Bangin
Practical? Is it not a practicality? This sounds, to me, as if the project is underway and has been for some time now.

And the scale of the project? Would you care to make an estimate of how large the so-called spray plane fleet is? How many pilots, air crew and ground crew are involved? How many air fields do they fly out of? Where are they located? The devils is in the details, but this is what separates the wheat from the chaff, ( how�s that for some bad clich�s? )

How practical are the logistics of the operation? To hear you state it, this is going on across the U.S. every day. Well the U.S. is pretty big and it would take a fleet of planes the size of all of the commercial airliners together to account for the number of �chemtrails� that are supposed to be sprayed.. That would make it pretty crowded up there. Yet, to date, not a single commercial airline pilot has come forth in support of this theory.

Perhaps I'm not following your statement. People that have reported 'chemtrails' say they were rather low in the sky. Yesterday, the thought crossed my mind that I MAY just be able to reach up and touch one of the trails.

Yes, it was THAT low.

If you had a subscription to Flight explorer, you would know exactly how high it was, along with the airline and type of plane.

It doesn't seem a (complete) secret at all. These seem to be plans for their journey to 'owning the weather'. Secondly, who stated that everyone is contributing to this journey? Hey, when the methods & reasons of operation are fully disclosed, if ever, then I'm sure all of our questions will be answered. I do not claim to have all of the answers.

well no one has come forth with any tangible proof so far. I predict that no one ever will, because chemtrails do not exist.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Please answer one question for me.

What is the purpose of chemtrails?

If you know, or happen to find out, please enlighten the rest of us.

At this point, weather modification seems to be the front runner. Truth be told, these methods can open a whole new door that'll lead to MANY possibilities. Either way, modifying the weather doesn't seem appropriate to me.

FYI, you quoted me in your previous post without giving credit to the true author, MKULTRA. Just letting people know that I didn't try to swipe him for his great research.

First, as for the misappropriated quote, sorry about that, I dislike excessive reposting of quotes, and I probably cut out the tag line.

So, if weather modification is the reason, tell me, what is wrong with our weather that they need to �fix� or modify?

Now it is true that contrails do have a measurable impact on the weather and the climate (google the research by Patrick Minnus) . But we don�t fly around the sky just to add a minor amount of water to the upper atmosphere. We fly to transport people and goods from place to place.

Originally posted by porschedrifter
because people none the wiser would just pass them off... as contrails from an aircraft

And of course none of the thousands of meteorologists and scientists currently involved in atmospheric research, both domestic and internationally have figured out that this is going on either.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
So, if weather modification is the reason, tell me, what is wrong with our weather that they need to �fix� or modify?

I don't see any valid reason to manipulate the weather. I'd rather not contribute to bullying Mother Nature around.

However, here are some "reasons" provided in the link:

As more countries pursue, develop, and exploit increasing types and degrees of weather-modification technologies, we must be able to detect their efforts and counter their activities when necessary. As depicted, the technologies and capabilities associated with such a counter weather role will become increasingly important.

The lessons of history indicate a real weather-modification capability will eventually exist despite the risk. The drive exists. People have always wanted to control the weather and their desire will compel them to collectively and continuously pursue their goal. The motivation exists. The potential benefits and power are extremely lucrative and alluring for those who have the resources to develop it. This combination of drive, motivation, and resources will eventually produce the technology. History also teaches that we cannot afford to be without a weather-modification capability once the technology is developed and used by others. Even if we have no intention of using it, others will. To call upon the atomic weapon analogy again, we need to be able to deter or counter their capability with our own. Therefore, the weather and intelligence communities must keep abreast of the actions of others.

As the preceding chapters have shown, weather-modification is a force multiplier with tremendous power that could be exploited across the full spectrum of war-fighting environments. From enhancing friendly operations or disrupting those of the enemy via small-scale tailoring of natural weather patterns to complete dominance of global communications and counter-space control, weather-modification offers the war fighter a wide-range of possible options to defeat or coerce an adversary. But, while offensive weather-modification efforts would certainly be undertaken by US forces with great caution and trepidation, it is clear that we cannot afford to allow an adversary to obtain an exclusive weather-modification capability.

OR--We can quote AffirmativeReaction:

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
Unfortunately, if we don't developed new weapon systems, someone else will.

Originally posted by Bangin

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
If such expieriments were going on, they would absolutly NOT be done over major population centers, such as Austin and Toronto. You can't keep something secret doing it right out in the open.....

Of course not! They would never do such a thing.

"You can't keep something secret doing it right out in the open??"

Oh, dear..You'd be surprised what Americans neglect to notice...well, at least I was.

and just who are "they"???

So now we have gone from respratory illnesses are caused by chemtrails to the flu is caused by chemtrails, to it's all to controll the weather...however, there is still not ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE to support ANY of these claims....


And you may quote me any time you wish, as it is a very sincere form of flattery...however, please quote me IN CONTEXT! You use the quote in line with the weather...I made the comment in connection with the aforementioned legislative attempt to quash future weapons research and development, NOT in conjunction with weather.....

OOPS

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
And you may quote me any time you wish, as it is a very sincere form of flattery...however, please quote me IN CONTEXT! You use the quote in line with the weather...I made the comment in connection with the aforementioned legislative attempt to quash future weapons research and development, NOT in conjunction with weather.....

You're correct. I quoted you because you used the quote in connection with weapons development, which is what the article seems to cover most. I suppose I should have noted that you were not referring to weather modification, but to 'exotic' weapons.

[Edited on 12/12/2003 by Bangin]

Double post because of jacked up editing system:

I used "they" because I thought you had referred to 'them' as 'they'. I made a mistake-You were actually referring to the experiments as 'they'. Sorry for the mix up.

Ok, let�s just say, for the sake of argument, that someone is spraying clouds of chemtrails and particles in the air. Theneo seems to believe that these particles are composed of aluminum and barium.

If so, then these clouds would show up on common radar systems such as used for weather prediction and air traffic control, as well as LIDAR systems.

Why don�t we see chemtrail lines on weather radar? Why don�t the scientists studying aerosols complain about all of the barium and aluminum in the atmosphere?

contrail shadow

closeup of a contrail

contrails in the sunset

two more

and more

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by Bangin



And now we see them talking about dispersing carbon black dust in the air:

This study by William M. Gray, et al., investigated the hypothesis that "significant beneficial influences can be derived through judicious exploitation of the solar absorption potential of carbon black dust."21 The study ultimately found that this technology could be used to enhance rainfall on the mesoscale, generate cirrus clouds, and enhance cumulonimbus (thunderstorm) clouds in otherwise dry areas.

The technology can be described as follows. Just as a black tar roof easily absorbs solar energy and subsequently radiates heat during a sunny day, carbon black also readily absorbs solar energy. When dispersed in microscopic or "dust" form in the air over a large body of water, the carbon becomes hot and heats the surrounding air, thereby increasing the amount of evaporation from the body of water below. As the surrounding air heats up, parcels of air will rise and the water vapor contained in the rising air parcel will eventually condense to form clouds. Over time the cloud droplets increase in size as more and more water vapor condenses, and eventually they become too large and heavy to stay suspended and will fall as rain or other forms of precipitation.

And perhaps the smoking gun of chemtrails, they admit (In Chapter 4) that the best way to "disperse" the carbon black dust is by using jet engines:

Numerous dispersal techniques have already been studied, but the most convenient, safe, and cost-effective method discussed is the use of afterburner-type jet engines to generate carbon particles while flying through the targeted air. This method is based on injection of liquid hydrocarbon fuel into the afterburner's combustion gases. This direct generation method was found to be more desirable than another plausible method (i.e., the transport of large quantities of previously produced and properly sized carbon dust to the desired altitude).

As you say, "C'mon! Jets leave contrails. It's water vapor, nothing more." In fact it appears to be much more.

There is also mention of using "chemical nuclei" to seed clouds in order to suppress precipitation:

If clouds were seeded (using chemical nuclei similar to those used today or perhaps a more effective agent discovered through continued research) before their downwind arrival to a desired location, the result could be a suppression of precipitation. In other words, precipitation could be "forced" to fall before its arrival in the desired territory, thereby making the desired territory "dry."

Hey I won�t deny that it is possible to do these things. There is, however a huge gap between the possible and the practical.

For instance, look at the carbon black issue. What they are talking about here is leaving a big black soot trail across the sky. Have you seen one of these lately? Furthermore, they don�t mention the altitude that this will take place at, but I imagine that it would be rather low, not at 35,000 feet. Consider also the amount of fuel they are talking about here. I don�t see the major airlines going along with this given that fuel costs are one of their major expenses.

Furthermore you are talking about a significant change to the design and operation of a jet engine. You can�t just do that without a huge number of people being in on it. You have the aircraft designers, the engineers, the mechanics, the pilots, the ground crew, etc. You have to change the aircraft certificates, operating manuals, etc. It would be pretty hard to keep something like that a secret.


Please answer one question for me.

What is the purpose of chemtrails?

two words: CLOUD SEEDING. its been around for a very long time (in the timeframe of aviation)

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer
two words: CLOUD SEEDING. its been around for a very long time (in the timeframe of aviation)

I've read that there are a couple of methods for seeding clouds. The cheapest and most common method is by a ground generator. The other method is by dropping the artificial ice crystals out of an aircraft directly into a cloud. I've never read that they 'create' the clouds, as these trails tend to do.

Besides, the information provided does not correlate to the methods used for 'cloud seeding'. In fact, there's no talk at all about silver iodide crystals, but "other" chemicals.

Cloud seeding is a form of weather modification, but I believe many doors have been opened since its introduction. Based on my research, cloud seeding would not explain these trails.

I would like to ask HowardRoark and AffirmativeReaction a question. You two seem hell-bent on disproving chemtrails, so we've had some time to exchange thoughts. My question to the both of you is, what conspiracy theory do you think has validity? Thank you in advance for your responses.

Those are really cool pics HowardRoark.

forsakenwayfarer: Well it has been stated that contrails at high altitudes can cause cloud formations. And yes when you have hundreds (thousands?) of flights per day. That is going to affect the climate somewhat. It talks about that in that link i posted on page 7 or 8 (can't remember which one) that's from NASA. But i'd say this is just the unintentional side effect of the exaust from the jet engines that comercial aircraft use.

HowardRoark, thanks for sharing the pictures!

Those contrails look amazing when being viewed out of an aircraft.

Originally posted by Bangin

Originally posted by forsakenwayfarer
two words: CLOUD SEEDING. its been around for a very long time (in the timeframe of aviation)

I've read that there are a couple of methods for seeding clouds. The cheapest and most common method is by a ground generator. The other method is by dropping the artificial ice crystals out of an aircraft directly into a cloud. I've never read that they 'create' the clouds, as these trails tend to do.

Besides, the information provided does not correlate to the methods used for 'cloud seeding'. In fact, there's no talk at all about silver iodide crystals, but "other" chemicals.

Cloud seeding is a form of weather modification, but I believe many doors have been opened since its introduction. Based on my research, cloud seeding would not explain these trails.

I would like to ask HowardRoark and AffirmativeReaction a question.

You two seem hell-bent on disproving chemtrails, so we've had some time to exchange thoughts. My question to the both of you is, what conspiracy theory do you think has validity? Thank you in advance for your responses.

The problem with the "creating clouds" thing is that I have never seen it take place. I have never seen a contrail, or group of contrails, form a solid cloud bank as you describe. I would have to see video proof, not stills, as it is too easy to manipulate as far as time and space goes, still photos. As far as the "planes filling in the gaps" as you described, the sat photo of Iraq is an easy explanation for that. I think there is a high degree of probability that what you saw was a KC-10 or KC-135 on a refueling track. they sometimes stay on station for 10 - 12 - even 14 hours.

As for your question, I take it you think I am one who tries to quash all conspiracy theories. Not true. While I think the vast majority are simply paranoid delusions, such as the government being in cahoots with aliens and having bases on Mars and the moon, there are defiantly stories out there that we don't have all the answers to. The Kennedy�s for example. there's conspiracy written all OVER that family, from Jack to Teddy. Are there secret government bases? You bet your bippie there are, but that's all I'll say about that one....

i make my own conspiracy theories.
here's one......howard roark works for the government, as does affirmativeaction(if they don't, i'm sure they're welcome to). their herculean attempts to disprove something which can be seen by the simple occular proof(# video) of looking up and observing the sky.
these planes do not only fly over populated areas, either. i have seen them laying down the famous parallel lines over the west and the rockies.
saying that it would be hard to keep this secret is an understatement.
small local newspapers and local cable stations have done stories. petitions have been signed, sent and ignored. people are noticing.
the fact that it was retracted from a government bill, does not mean it never existed. how thick is that? the initial reference proves that the government is aware of these very existant WEAPONS.
who suffers the most casualties in "modern" warfare? infantry? mech divisions? naval? covert? and of course the answer is, ....CIVILIANS.
why? to sell WEAPONS.
why? to manipulate the populace.
why? blood sacrifice and culling of the useless eaters.
now, really....
if you debunker types think you're right, why bother with this thread? why not just let lunatics be lunatics? (off topic: the word lunatic is a reference to the effect of the moon on the human psyche)

This is getting pretty silly. Howard Roark and Affirmative Reaction have done nothing but show the evidence and explain sometimes in detail, why they think it's just contrails. The best some of you can do is just call these guys spooks or gov't agents trying to debunk your theories. These guys are just trying to explain what they believe. God forbid some one have a differance of opinion. I mean gee this is a forum... by definition, a public meeting place for open discussion.

Ancient Rome used forums for judicial activity. I think this thread (and really every thread here) should be treated in such a manner where two (or more) sides present there evidence (in a professional manner) and let everyone be the judge for themselves.

Giving insulting remarks about someones character and not giving any evidence to support your belief doesn't make you or what you believe in look to good. You want to show other people that chemtrails are real? best way is to show the evidence. Calling them names cause they don't automaticly believe what you believe won't do #. Saying "look up the info yourself" or "Look up at the sky" doesn't help much either. There has to be more evidence then that. What got you guys believing in chemtrails? show and support your evidence guys. If this were a court case you guys would be loosing pretty bad here.

Sorry to go off on a rant, but i felt it needed to be said.




[Edited on 13-12-2003 by jra]