Russia's territorial demands reminiscent of Nazi Germany

a reply to: paraphi

Without Kievan Rus there wouldn't be an Ukraine today.

originally posted by: vNex92
a reply to: paraphi

In 2014 Ukraine decided to lean towards the West

No. This was after the euromaidan regime change in Kiev which removed a democratically elected president in Ukraine. Yanukovych.

free to choose
Not when you have a puppet directed by DC, NATO EU how can you claim free?

Ukraine is a sovereign nation

It wont be once it joins NATO, EU. Look at Greece, Italy for what happens when you join a sphere of influence.

JoIning NATO isn't even on the table for Ukraine.

Never was.

But that may change if russia keeps up the threats.

originally posted by: vNex92
You know the rise of Moscow? look it up. Tatars played along sides with the Ottoman empire.

? The Soviets pursued a policy of ethnic cleansing in Crimea. Let's not get into the genocide in Ukraine known as the Holodomor.

My point is that Russia just don't like Ukraine. Ukraine has a long history of Russian abuse and want to be stuck in Russian imagined "sphere of influence".

originally posted by: Ghostsdogood

originally posted by: vNex92
a reply to: paraphi

In 2014 Ukraine decided to lean towards the West

No. This was after the euromaidan regime change in Kiev which removed a democratically elected president in Ukraine. Yanukovych.

free to choose
Not when you have a puppet directed by DC, NATO EU how can you claim free?

Ukraine is a sovereign nation

It wont be once it joins NATO, EU. Look at Greece, Italy for what happens when you join a sphere of influence.

JoIning NATO isn't even on the table for Ukraine.

Never was.

But that may change if russia keeps up the threats.

And yet NATO members states are rushing to airlift weapons into Ukraine. Despite them being the ones who started this by threatening the ethnic Russian in Crimea

This is like the Cops handing out guns to a street gang after it starts a turf war.

originally posted by: AaarghZombies

originally posted by: Ghostsdogood

originally posted by: vNex92
a reply to: paraphi

In 2014 Ukraine decided to lean towards the West

No. This was after the euromaidan regime change in Kiev which removed a democratically elected president in Ukraine. Yanukovych.

free to choose
Not when you have a puppet directed by DC, NATO EU how can you claim free?

Ukraine is a sovereign nation

It wont be once it joins NATO, EU. Look at Greece, Italy for what happens when you join a sphere of influence.

JoIning NATO isn't even on the table for Ukraine.

Never was.

But that may change if russia keeps up the threats.

And yet NATO members states are rushing to airlift weapons into Ukraine. Despite them being the ones who started this by threatening the ethnic Russian in Crimea

This is like the Cops handing out guns to a street gang after it starts a turf war.

Small DEFENSIVE weapons.

So they can defend themselves against another russian invasion.

We are not sending them anything that can harm russians that aren't on Ukrainian soil.

Until yesterday, we didn't even send them anything that could defend against a single t14.

russian deployments of t14s got Ukraine a defense against t14s.

See how that works?



Joining NATO is not on the table for Ukraine.

Never was.

But might be if russia keeps this up.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: RIPMH370
USA gave Russia an undertaking if Germany reunited, NATO would never expand eastwards, but they lied by admitting Hungary and Poland into NATO.

This is often quoted as fact, but is highly disputed. ...

Gorbachev was paid a $3 million by the Carnagie Endowment to forget the undertaking given by US Secretary of State James Baker in 1990 (ie to lie for Washington)

Former US ambassador to the USSR, Jack Matlock testified to Congress that Gorbachev received a clear commitment that if Germany United and stayed in NATO, the borders of NATO would not move eastward.

a reply to: AaarghZombies

ones who started this by threatening the ethnic Russian in Crimea

The ones this by threatening the ethnic Russian in Crimea who wanted self independence? i fully support catalonia independence.

You know what? the people in Crimea had every right to self independence. Its what democracy does. NATO seemed threaten by the results.

originally posted by: RIPMH370

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: RIPMH370
USA gave Russia an undertaking if Germany reunited, NATO would never expand eastwards, but they lied by admitting Hungary and Poland into NATO.

This is often quoted as fact, but is highly disputed. ...

Gorbachev was paid a $3 million by the Carnagie Endowment to forget the undertaking given by US Secretary of State James Baker in 1990 (ie to lie for Washington)

Former US ambassador to the USSR, Jack Matlock testified to Congress that Gorbachev received a clear commitment that if Germany United and stayed in NATO, the borders of NATO would not move eastward.

Is there a copy of the treaty available, or just one corrupt politician bribing another a few decades ago?

Besides, those 'agreements' were predicated on russia never again sending troops anywhere in Europe, a pledge russia almost immediately broke.


And joining NATO isn't even on the table for Ukraine, so why keep throwing out this red herring?

a reply to: paraphi

My point is that Russia just don't like Ukraine.

Russia has no issues with Ukraine. Its the polticans, leaders who come into kiev that Russia and Russians dont like. These same leaders like the pro EU NATO, Porky for example..

Soviets pursued a policy of ethnic cleansing in Crimea

There are 97% ethnic Eastern Slavs in Crimea who lived there since the Kievan Rus. The Soviets pursued a policy of ethnic cleansing you are talking about is the Tatars.

The Crimean Tatars had collaborated with Nazi Germany because of their displeasing of the soviets. The Eastern Slavs in Crimea did not like the way Crimean Tatars were collaborating with the Nazis.


It wasn't the soviet's it was Stalin.

a reply to: dollukka

Ukraine is not Independent it is a fascist puppet regime installed by Washington


How US funded and backed fascism in Ukraine

Qa reply to: vNex92


Some of this is new to me, and interesting.

Thank you both.


Question though, wasn't stalin the leader of the 'soviets' (AKA russia) at the time?

a reply to: paraphi

Funny you say that victor yankovich was a Russian puppet president and he rejected EU membership because of the rejection EU/NATO wanted yankovich to fall.

The EU is expanding much more like a empire much more like the soviets and the Roman empire could ever hoped for.

originally posted by: RIPMH370
a reply to: dollukka

Ukraine is not Independent it is a fascist puppet regime installed by Washington


How US funded and backed fascism in Ukraine

And?

Even IF true?


How does that in any way justify the violent actions of russia?

Does russia still consider Ukraine one of it's slave states?

Was Ukraine threatening russia in ANY way?


You want to talk about russia supporting ccp, north korea, iran, syria, hamas, houthis, etc?

russia did a WHOLE lot more in each of those, and still is, than we ever considered doing with Ukraine, even IF any of that nonsense was true.

a reply to: paraphi

NATO/US/West Ukrainian nationalist/fascist allies.
There are many more than just Azov Battalion.


Canadian officials who met with Ukrainian unit linked to neo-Nazis feared exposure by news media: documents

A year before the meeting, Canada’s Joint Task Force Ukraine produced a briefing on the Azov Battalion, acknowledging its links to Nazi ideology.

Long history of Ukrainian-Canadian groups glorifying Nazi collaborators exposed by defacing of Oakville memorial

Defence Department probes claim Canadian forces trained extremists in Ukraine

Why is the Biden admin sending arms to possible right wing nationalist groups? that had torch marches in Kiev?

originally posted by: vNex92
a reply to: paraphi

NATO/US/West Ukrainian nationalist/fascist allies.
There are many more than just Azov Battalion.


Canadian officials who met with Ukrainian unit linked to neo-Nazis feared exposure by news media: documents

A year before the meeting, Canada’s Joint Task Force Ukraine produced a briefing on the Azov Battalion, acknowledging its links to Nazi ideology.

Long history of Ukrainian-Canadian groups glorifying Nazi collaborators exposed by defacing of Oakville memorial

Defence Department probes claim Canadian forces trained extremists in Ukraine

Why is the Biden admin sending arms to possible right wing nationalist groups? that had torch marches in Kiev?

Defensive weapons specifically selected for the russian invaders.

Because they have a current problem with russian invaders.

When the russians go away, so do the defensive weapons.

We never sent even defensive weapons until they were infested with russian invaders.

a reply to: Ghostsdogood

Pan-Slavism and Russification.

Cheers

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
a reply to: Ghostsdogood

Pan-Slavism and Russification.

Cheers

originally posted by: vNex92

Who cares about ethnic Russians in Ukraine
Seems history isn't your strongest those ethnic Russians in Ukraine had lived there for many decades.

Seems language isn't your strongest suit. I didn't question their time in Ukraine, i questioned about why NATO should care about them? If they're trying to overthrow the government of the country they live in, in lieu of Russia taking control, then let them move to mother Russia.

That's like saying latino's in the US should be given an ounce of "caring" if they want to install (for instance) Colombian's government in the US, even though they lived here for decades.

originally posted by: vNex92

Russia intervened in Syria prevented Syria to fall like Libya and regime changing seems to be the only thing that the war mongers could have being doing.

Irrelevant to the discussion. Syria has no desire to be a NATO member state.

originally posted by: vNex92

You know what would had happened if US attacks Russia in Syria.
I would like the see war mongers try to do that.

I bet you would. In one simple sentence, you became the warmonger you allege to be decrying.

a reply to: alphabetaone


Our only interest is in keeping russians within russian borders.

Nothing else.

Though the biden family may have some other things at stake, they aren't military in nature, and violate our laws.

Ukrainians can have coup after coup for the next century for all I care.

All we can do for them is provide space to figure out what they want to be and how they want to get there.

We don't have any military interest in Ukraine at all.

Only in keeping russians inside russian borders.


Seriously, can we just give Ukraine to china or iran?

NATO doesn't want it.



ETA - How about we forcibly relocate every man, woman, child, and goat from Ukraine to germany?

Will russia promise to keep it's troops inside russian borders and stop threatening ww3?

I can live with an empty Ukraine and a little taste of it's own medicine for germany.

Doubt putin would make or keep that promise though.

He wants Ukrainian land and resources.

a reply to: Ghostsdogood




Nonsense, Ukraine was invited to join NATO in 2008 AND again by Trump in 2018/
source The Great Delusion, Chapt. 6
by J Mearsheimer, Chicago university (2018)

Boris Yeltsin claimed that promises made about not enlarging NATO were broken when the Clinton Administration decided to offer membership to Central Europe. The first group was Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic. Subsequently NATO proposed seven new members including Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Then, in 2008, the Bush administration called for membership for both Georgia and Ukraine.

At the time of German unification, in 1990 to comply with the 1945 Potsdam Treaty (which forbade reunification) the West gave multiple assurances to the Russians that NATO would not enlarge if the USSR agreed to the reunified Germany remaining in NATO. In 1990, the West German Foreign Minister declared that a united Germany would be a member of NATO but that there would be no expansion of NATO territory eastwards. US Secretary of State James Baker assured Gorbachev that there would be no extension of NATO’s forces to the east. Former US ambassador to the USSR, Jack Matlock has testified that Gorbachev received a clear commitment that if Germany United and stayed in NATO, the borders of NATO would not move eastward. The violations of this promise are seen as the major cause of the deterioration of Russia’s relations with the West.
US actions today in 2022 are in bad faith and breach the Potsdam Declaration, 1945.


The US State Department refers to an undertaking given in 1990 that NATO would not extend east of GDR/East Germany:
From NSA archives FOIA Reading Room. Case F-2015 10829