The Ancient Egyptian Stones Were Perfectly Precise How is this Possible? Many Qs Little Answers

originally posted by: vNex92

originally posted by: murphyslaw1970
a reply to: HawkEyi I think it's over thought on how the pyramids were built. After many years on ideas how they built the pyramids, I'm standing firm with my latest thought. They were Masters of Concrete. "Terrazzo: The Background
In fact, it’s been around for ages – examples of terrazzo flooring have even been discovered in ancient Egyptian mosaics. Terrazzo is a composite construction material made by combining chips of aggregates such as marble or stone with either concrete or epoxy-resin." Be Safe

There are still many things that currently they are hiding about how the pyramids were built. We currently today in the modern times.

We have now all the best tools and technology.

Is it so hard to recreate the same the pyramids as they built them? why no one has tried it yet? afraid?

Nope. It's just that the world's richest people don't seem to have any interest in having them recreated.

And frankly, beyond the "man, that's a lot of rock" factor, there's not a lot you could do with a pyramid that large that's mostly solid rock with a few small chambers. You can't really rent it for hotel rooms or turn it into a shopping mall (because the way down (speaking as someone who went down there) is small and slippery and the rooms aren't that big.

They'd rather spend their money on mega yachts, or mansions or trips into space or building rockets or buying Twitter, etc. More return for the money than heaping up a huge stack of rocks.

originally posted by: Justoneman
Find me one Engineer who ever said it could be done and we shall see if you are right.

NOTE:

You won't find one credible Engineer who will back you up.

Maybe you should look around before making such an ignorant statement.

www.ekt.bme.hu...

Harte

a reply to: Harte

From your link:

The Egyptians could predict the flooding of the Nile, identify major stars and the position of the stellar bodies with some accuracy, and calculate areas and volumes o f structures as complex as the pyramids.

But could they predict the end of the flooding cycle that punctuated the Old Kingdom with the burial of the legendary ruler Pepy II?

www.crf-usa.org...

And here is a picture of a Nilometer from Rhoda island in Cairo that records the importance of Egyptian practice of calculating the floods, although this one was built much later after Plato and was likely embellished by artistic influences from Athens.

originally posted by: fromunclexcommunicate
a reply to: Harte

From your link:

The Egyptians could predict the flooding of the Nile, identify major stars and the position of the stellar bodies with some accuracy, and calculate areas and volumes o f structures as complex as the pyramids.

But could they predict the end of the flooding cycle that punctuated the Old Kingdom with the burial of the legendary ruler Pepy II?

www.crf-usa.org...

And here is a picture of a Nilometer from Rhoda island in Cairo that records the importance of Egyptian practice of calculating the floods, although this one was built much later after Plato and was likely embellished by artistic influences from Athens.

Of course the Egyptians measured the nile and predicted the annual floods. Their existence actually depended on them.
That wasn't the subject though, was it.

Harte

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: turbonium1
The old ramps, or the remains of ramps, were NOT used to build the great pyramid, they'd crush down instantly from the weight of one block, before it was halfway on it!

I'm sure those ramps were an attempt by the Egyptians trying to figure out how they were ever built, or used to remove the gold from the capstone, perhaps. And to take credit for building them, like putting their tombs inside of them, and drawing on the walls.

In fairness, it is important to note that Egypt's history spans over 5,000 years, right? Some depictions might be Egyptians living in 1000 BC trying to guess how a structure was built in 4000 BC, after all useable records have been lost.

But that's also why we have to be careful taking them at their word. If a depiction wasn't made near the time of the actual construction, it is very likely just a later generation trying to guess how a previous generation did it.

They had families of craftsmen, so there was no "guessing" how things were done. Dad (or Mom) would tell them how to do it and would smack the heck out of kids who weren't doing it right.

As to ramps, there are several still in existence from ancient times. Here's a link to a stock photo of the mud brick ramp in place at the temple of Karnak behind the first pylon I've been there and saw it for myself. They began building the temple at the start of the Middle Kingdom...

I doubt they used the same method to move mud bricks as they used to move 80 ton granite slabs, or even the 5 ton limestone bricks.

If the ancients depicted it happening that way, it's probably because the methods they used for moving mud bricks were the only ones they knew about, ..... which means they probably only knew how to move mud bricks in the first place by that time in history.

, during a time when they were still building pyramids for kings' tombs

If they ever did build them.

But I'm only convinced they moved the 5 ton blocks that form the outer pyramid shape. (For which we have confirmation in the diary of Merer, and a nearby city of workers.)

originally posted by: fromunclexcommunicate
a reply to: Harte

The Grand Gallery that leads up near the center of the pyramid is an amazing engineering challenge regardless of the leverage method used for those granite blocks. I think it would cost in the trillions today, and for what we ask?

Plus, they went to the trouble of making it all smooth and stuff. Lot of waste for a functional element. The first block you move up that thing, you're going to end up scuffing it, or gouging a hole somewhere, and then have to do it all over.

If they smoothed it out last, then would it even have been functional before they finished it?

a reply to: daskakik

The pyramids have been weathered by time. What you see now are the “interior” stones for want of a better term.

The white casing stones are mostly gone but they were quite precise.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

About two or three hundred years BC Aritstothenes correct me if I have the wrong guy, measured the circumference of the Earth he got it pretty well to a few hundred miles. He uses trigonometry by using the sun's ground position, and an angle to known point north. He would have got it to bang on if he was a bit more precise.The point is that if this level of Maths was known back then, what else was? It is estimated that in the four and a half thousand years since the GP was built it has moved about four miles from its original position, which would have put it bang on the thirtieth parallel. The Maps of the ancient sea Kings put the Prime meridian at Giza, and not at Greenwich as it is today. We are led to believe that no sophisticated timekeeping instrument was available to work out Longitude. Then up pops the Antikliera mechanism, which has all the bits and pieces except the spring to drive the escape mechanism, for the precise ticking of said timing piece. Some people in ancient times were far more with it than we give them credit for.

originally posted by: Ohanka
The white casing stones are mostly gone but they were quite precise.

But those were made of limestone, which can be as soft as chalk.

Not saying material that soft was used but those precise parts were made of something relatively soft.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Ohanka
The white casing stones are mostly gone but they were quite precise.

But those were made of limestone, which can be as soft as chalk.

Not saying material that soft was used but those precise parts were made of something relatively soft.

Which means the stone is easy to smooth to flat surfaces by rubbing with another stone. And that's how it was done, after the blocks were roughed out by sawing.

Harte

originally posted by: AaarghZombies
a reply to: HawkEyi

No one today could still answer the question how were they built and who assisted them if not for a precursor civilization.

Except that we know that these things were done by humans because they got it wrong several times. For example the Pyramid built by Sneferu. The architect made several mistakes which needed to be corrected, as seen by the fact that the slope of the walls is wrong.

The pyramids themselves were based on an even older tomb design known as a Mastaba, which was a slope sided building often made out of bricks.

It took the Egyptians over 400 years to perfect the pyramid. It's not something that they simply did on one go.

The names of the architects of the pyramids, and details about their construction were recorded on in the architects own tombs. Which contained details of their deeds and accomplishments during their lives.
We also have tombs and burial sites for the laborers who made the pyramid.

anyone examine the bones? for stress's as to heavy labor beyond normal day to day chores?

like spine deformities? crushed and broken hands limbs and feet? a forensic study of the bones and joints would be helpful.
bulling around 2 ton blocks all day for years would leave some marks somewhere on the skeleton.

i'd like to know. and there would be 100's of thousand graves, over a 20 yr period.

especially if they used 100,000 at a time. it's at least 2 generations.

life expectancy was what, 40 if not less back then? useful hard labor would have been what? 20 yrs?

lol hey tut, can you hold up his block for me while i go unclog the toilet my kids mucked up ? i'll be right back, thanks.

yeah the AE had serious help or didn't build them.

a reply to: sarahvital

Yes. Of course the remains have been studied and the results are as you describe. Lots of healed breakages, unhealed breaks and robust physiques.

Harte

originally posted by: sarahvital

originally posted by: AaarghZombies
a reply to: HawkEyi

No one today could still answer the question how were they built and who assisted them if not for a precursor civilization.

Except that we know that these things were done by humans because they got it wrong several times. For example the Pyramid built by Sneferu. The architect made several mistakes which needed to be corrected, as seen by the fact that the slope of the walls is wrong.

The pyramids themselves were based on an even older tomb design known as a Mastaba, which was a slope sided building often made out of bricks.

It took the Egyptians over 400 years to perfect the pyramid. It's not something that they simply did on one go.

The names of the architects of the pyramids, and details about their construction were recorded on in the architects own tombs. Which contained details of their deeds and accomplishments during their lives.
We also have tombs and burial sites for the laborers who made the pyramid.

anyone examine the bones? for stress's as to heavy labor beyond normal day to day chores?

like spine deformities? crushed and broken hands limbs and feet? a forensic study of the bones and joints would be helpful.
bulling around 2 ton blocks all day for years would leave some marks somewhere on the skeleton.

i'd like to know. and there would be 100's of thousand graves, over a 20 yr period.

especially if they used 100,000 at a time. it's at least 2 generations.

life expectancy was what, 40 if not less back then? useful hard labor would have been what? 20 yrs?

lol hey tut, can you hold up his block for me while i go unclog the toilet my kids mucked up ? i'll be right back, thanks.

yeah the AE had serious help or didn't build them.

Yes, they studied the graves.

No, they don't have thousands of deaths (nobody would work on that project). There are several hundred tombs, many of which are overseers.

Workers were well taken care of as a rule. If they couldn't work, they were not picked to go to the site and work.

Once a year the king's overseers would go up and down the river and pick up the laborers and farmers during the flood season (when they couldn't work the fields.) When planting season came and the floods were gone, the people were taken back home (so Egypt could have food.)

The entire area was probably in construction for over 100 years. There's more than just 3 pyramids there (there's nine, if memory serves) plus boat pits plus mortuary chapels plus valley chapels for each pyramid plus walls plus administrative structures plus temples to other gods. Lots of construction. They were building tombs and chapels there for over a thousand years.

a reply to: sarahvital

Life expectancy in history is heavily skewed by the high infant mortality rate and childhood mortality rate.

Lifespans weren’t as long as today, but if you survived your childhood you’d probably live into your 50s or 60s. Maybe even longer. Barring some disease or accident or what have you.

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Ohanka
The white casing stones are mostly gone but they were quite precise.

But those were made of limestone, which can be as soft as chalk.

Not saying material that soft was used but those precise parts were made of something relatively soft.

Which means the stone is easy to smooth to flat surfaces by rubbing with another stone. And that's how it was done, after the blocks were roughed out by sawing.

Harte

Yeah, if they didn't do that way and had a super secret high tech way how did those poor bastards the Greeks, Romans, Indian and Chinese do exactly the same thing?

originally posted by: Byrd


The entire area was probably in construction for over 100 years. There's more than just 3 pyramids there (there's nine, if memory serves) plus boat pits plus mortuary chapels plus valley chapels for each pyramid plus walls plus administrative structures plus temples to other gods. Lots of construction. They were building tombs and chapels there for over a thousand years.

Also, one of the boat pits had a surviving boat in it when it was opened, and they were able to radio carbon date the wood.

It's pretty much indisputable that some of the official time line is accurate. But the idea that the area was never touched prior is blind speculation.

The granite work inside the GP looks to me like part of a water pump. During the Green Sahara period, when the whole area was marsh, you would need to drain the marsh in order to use it. Large scale masonry has, historically, been how large scale water moving was done.





Looking a side view diagram, when you see the weird "escape shaft" toward the bottom, do you really believe the legend that, supposedly some tomb robbers had built this secret shaft so they could hide inside as the tomb was seald, then loot the King's chamber and escape?

That's a lot of suspension of disbelief, as opposed to looking at from the perspective of known and practical technology.

If the grand gallery had a plunger in it, and you wanted to pump water from the subterranean chamber, to the entrance, then you would close valves leading to the entrance, pull the plunger up to draw water from the subterranean chamber until you get up to the top of the gallery, then close off the "escape shaft" , open up the entrance passage way, and push the plunger back down, to push water out the entrance shaft.

The queen's chamber would just be pressure relief, or another location water could be pumped to by closing/opening up that pathway.

A very simple pump. Perhaps using windmills or something to lift the plunger.

Something the ancients were capable of. No flying saucers. But also of no practical use during the reign of Khufu. Plenty useful during the Green Sahara era, though.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: Byrd


The entire area was probably in construction for over 100 years. There's more than just 3 pyramids there (there's nine, if memory serves) plus boat pits plus mortuary chapels plus valley chapels for each pyramid plus walls plus administrative structures plus temples to other gods. Lots of construction. They were building tombs and chapels there for over a thousand years.

Also, one of the boat pits had a surviving boat in it when it was opened, and they were able to radio carbon date the wood.

It's pretty much indisputable that some of the official time line is accurate. But the idea that the area was never touched prior is blind speculation.

The granite work inside the GP looks to me like part of a water pump. During the Green Sahara period, when the whole area was marsh, you would need to drain the marsh in order to use it. Large scale masonry has, historically, been how large scale water moving was done.

Looking a side view diagram, when you see the weird "escape shaft" toward the bottom, do you really believe the legend that, supposedly some tomb robbers had built this secret shaft so they could hide inside as the tomb was seald, then loot the King's chamber and escape?

That's a lot of suspension of disbelief, as opposed to looking at from the perspective of known and practical technology.

If the grand gallery had a plunger in it, and you wanted to pump water from the subterranean chamber, to the entrance, then you would close valves leading to the entrance, pull the plunger up to draw water from the subterranean chamber until you get up to the top of the gallery, then close off the "escape shaft" , open up the entrance passage way, and push the plunger back down, to push water out the entrance shaft.

The queen's chamber would just be pressure relief, or another location water could be pumped to by closing/opening up that pathway.

A very simple pump. Perhaps using windmills or something to lift the plunger.

Something the ancients were capable of. No flying saucers. But also of no practical use during the reign of Khufu. Plenty useful during the Green Sahara era, though.

Howdy Bloody

Why go to the massive over building to just move water? If G1 is a pump what is G2 for?

G1 is on a ridge line why would you want to pump water from a dry limestone ridge line and to where?

Why build it in an existing cemetery? Why label it as a tomb? What are the earlier 'great' pyramid for?

atlaspub.20m.com...

www.youtube.com... (steam powered water pump pyramid)

murreyandblue.wordpress.com...

Towards this idea:

i.imgur.com...

originally posted by: Hanslune

Howdy Bloody

Why go to the massive over building to just move water? If G1 is a pump what is G2 for?

You know what I'm hinting at, right?

The area wasn't always dry. It was in Khufu's time.

G1 is on a ridge line why would you want to pump water from a dry limestone ridge line and to where?

For swamp draining.... I guess that is an odd location. Swamps tend to form at the lowest elevations.

Hmmm... maybe they had another reason?

The Nile has always flooded and then gone down, right?

Pumping water up hill into a reservoir would be a good way of storing it.

Especially if your village wants to have running water. Store it at a higher elevation than your dwellings, and you can just let it flow downhill into your house when you want it.

Why build it in an existing cemetery? Why label it as a tomb? What are the earlier 'great' pyramid for?

atlaspub.20m.com...

www.youtube.com... (steam powered water pump pyramid)

murreyandblue.wordpress.com...

Towards this idea:

i.imgur.com...

I think it wasn't all built at one time. The passages could have existed on their own, with no outer pyramid. (Indeed, during construction they would have to have been built first before the outer walls.)

They could have stood for thousands of years as a mostly granite structure, that didn't in any possible way look at all like a pyramid. You would look at them and just see an interesting, but totally not pyramid like, large scale structure there.

Along comes Khufu, and decides to expand on it. In his mind he is adding to it. Perhaps even perfecting it. He doesn't think of it as defacing it.

Maybe he thought the structure had magic powers that would help him in the afterlife?

Also: if he thought it was sacred, he wouldn't want to deface it. Which could explain the lack of any intentional inscriptions.

a reply to: HawkEyi

Timelapse.... thats the word I was looking for. Being able to design and organise the logistics for creating three of such structures one would expect that somebody has the luminous idea to record the progres in some way. If not in writing then in pictures...or drawings. Just like we do today when a mega project is being built..we take pictures at time intervals so we can see the progress being made over time.

I mean..if you have decided to start building a structure like the giza pyramids and aware that methods are used which will impress humans for thousends of years in the future..how can nobody be interested to document how its done. Either we still have to find this archive with information or....it is on purpose that there will never be a clue about how it is done. If so...why?

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

That's a lot of suspension of disbelief, as opposed to looking at from the perspective of known and practical technology.

Okay, let's look at it from the perspective of known and practical technology.

If the grand gallery had a plunger in it, and you wanted to pump water from the subterranean chamber, to the entrance, then you would close valves leading to the entrance, pull the plunger up to draw water from the subterranean chamber until you get up to the top of the gallery, then close off the "escape shaft" , open up the entrance passage way, and push the plunger back down, to push water out the entrance shaft.

* The surface is irregular (it's not polished to a mirror-smooth finish)

* Seals made from our best modern materials would break down and then not form a proper seal after a number of trips. Just what are you proposing that would form a tight seal on an uneven (slightly bumpy) surface AND not disintegrate after a short time?

* Speaking of "Rubberitis-Indestructium", how do they get down to repair the thing if and when something breaks? I can attest that the entrance there is narrow and cramped and steep (I'm 5'2" and I had to bend and walk down backwards to get down there. And hiking back up is no joke.

* The passage is irregular in shape and size. How do you pull a plunger around the many corners? In modern times we can push a fluid through an irregular passage, but we can't pull it through. What method are you saying that they used (that we do not know about) to do this?

* the entrance is about 100 meters above sea level and more than 80 meters above the Nile. It sits on a plateau. No marshes, even in the flood season. Even during the Green Sahara it wasn't a marsh.

* You can't pump (single stage) water to a height of more than 34 feet (11 meters or so). 80 meters is considerably higher than11 meters.

* There's a grotto there. That means your plunger seal won't fit the grotto. You can't lift water around it.

The queen's chamber would just be pressure relief, or another location water could be pumped to by closing/opening up that pathway.

A very simple pump. Perhaps using windmills or something to lift the plunger.

Well, they didn't have windmills (for one thing, the wood there is terrible.) Also not shown is that the passage to the Queen's chamber isn't just a straight tunnel as you can see in this more detailed diagram

A windmill can lift water 185 feet (about 62 meters) which is short of the 80 meters. But it can't do it around corners.

Something the ancients were capable of. No flying saucers. But also of no practical use during the reign of Khufu.

Au contraire... it would have been extremely practical (windmill pumps and the technology you're talking about) to water the fields. With pumps and water, they wouldn't have been as heavily reliant on the Nile floods and could have (as they have today) extended their agricultural fields much farther.


And then there's the problem of "they got the equipment down there and abandoned it... so why isn't it still there? It would not have been made out of material worth stealing (wood, sealants, copper, etc)... there ought to be bits and pieces all over.

And where are the prototypes? We have 300 years worth of tombs before the time of Khufu that used similar designs. They wouldn't have done a "one off" without being certain that the technology worked.

As you see, it would be impractical or impossible (simply from the standpoint that it's all going to break or wear out quickly and getting down there to maintain and fix it is difficult, dark, and exhausting.


Now...all those things make it perfect for a tomb. Hard to get into, hard to take riches out of there, even if you bribed the guards to let you in, it'd take a lot of time and effort to bring anything out -- and by that time another set of guards or priests or officials would have caught you and prevented you from more tomb robbing by executing you.

...and...

For swamp draining.... I guess that is an odd location. Swamps tend to form at the lowest elevations.

Hmmm... maybe they had another reason?

The Nile has always flooded and then gone down, right?

Pumping water up hill into a reservoir would be a good way of storing it.

The oldest dam (reservoir) dates from that era and was never finished and was destroyed by flood

Especially if your village wants to have running water. Store it at a higher elevation than your dwellings, and you can just let it flow downhill into your house when you want it.

Villages are literally right on the river's edge, and they cut channels to water their fields. Also, they're on the OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE NILE (the villages, that is) because that's the area most smoothed by the floods.

They even have simple hand-operated pumps (called shadoufs) in use from the time of Khufu and before that move water from the Nile into the channels that water the fields.

What's the strategic advantage to having a reservoir in an area a mile across a river? Also, how are you going to get the water to the villages?

I think it wasn't all built at one time.

This is correct. The area ha been used as a graveyard for hundreds of years and the building process just for the Giza pyramids and their complexes likely took over a century.

They could have stood for thousands of years as a mostly granite structure, that didn't in any possible way look at all like a pyramid. You would look at them and just see an interesting, but totally not pyramid like, large scale structure there.

The granite comes from Aswan, 550 miles or so UP the Nile. And the quarrying/smoothing/etc is consistent with the technology of Khufu's time (stone pounders, copper-bronze chisels, wooden wedges, sand)

Along comes Khufu, and decides to expand on it. In his mind he is adding to it. Perhaps even perfecting it. He doesn't think of it as defacing it.

Maybe he thought the structure had magic powers that would help him in the afterlife?

Also: if he thought it was sacred, he wouldn't want to deface it. Which could explain the lack of any intentional inscriptions.

(chuckle) The kings rather gleefully appropriated older monuments.

And "lack of inscriptions" is more likely explained by "the walls were plastered at one time" (similar to that of Djoser's step pyramid and other tombs) but robbers, and time turned the plaster into dust.

Also the "pyramid texts" weren't a thing until about 200 years later.