Are you a Patriot?

originally posted by: Jay-morris
Never have and never will be a patriot. I am from the uk, and like most counties England has a shocking and brutal history. This is not the reason why I am not a patriot.

To me, patriotism for your country is just a tool used to control people. Get people to believe that patriotism is a great thing, that opens the doors to governments getting away with the horrors they have been getting away with.

The population will blindly follow their governments into a war, even a pointless war that only benefits the few. And they can do this because we have been conditioned to love our country.

Me, I see the bigger picture, and I will not fall into this trap that has brainwashed do many people, and started so many wars.

Now, I am patriotic towards the planet. Not these islands we live on.

I know its just my option , but that's how I feel.

That's ok, we reserve the name Patriot for our New England football team.

Tom Brady, best Patriot quarterback ever. Ethan Allen, another great patriot. Ever hear of him?

All land was stolen from someone.

The Spaniards and British killed a hell of a lot more Native Americans than any American ever did.

I hate the current state of the U.S. government and I am ashamed at the global meddling that has occurred covertly and overtly for the last 100 or so years but it hasn't all been bad.

I love my country and I'll let a foreigner tell you why:

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: amazing


You didn't look at the link, did you?

I'm sorry, they have the SAME rights as anyone else in Israel.

Are you a Hamas apologist?

LOl A Hamas Apologist? What does that even mean?

I'm for equal rights for all people in every country , no matter who or what they are.

This statement is especially relevant to this thread and patriotism, in acknowledging how we treat native Americans and have treated them in the past.

Palestinians don't have the same rights as Israeli citizens. Do you even research any of this stuff or just blindly believe the right wing propaganda machines. It's time to open your eyes. Google can help.

And now we have met a real "patriot".

You didn't read the link, did you? You know, a lot of other people just read the link, and it wasn't made by "right wingers".

I suppose then that you are willing to go to Mecca and attempt to get equal rights for other people who are not Muslim to go there? I am assuming you can do that right? You are the great and mighty equal rights proponent, so go to Mecca and get a synagogue or church to be built there. Can you do that?



Now what does Mecca have to do with the USA, my country supporting an apartheid regime in Israel?

That's the crux of the matter.

originally posted by: amazing



Now what does Mecca have to do with the USA, my country supporting an apartheid regime in Israel?

That's the crux of the matter.

Oh I see, you can't address it.

OK, no one will push you because we all know where you actually stand. I understand, you have to be afraid to say anything against it, me, I'm just an infidel who isn't worried.

But to be an honest and intelligent person, you are going to have to start addressing it at some point.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: amazing



Now what does Mecca have to do with the USA, my country supporting an apartheid regime in Israel?

That's the crux of the matter.

Oh I see, you can't address it.

OK, no one will push you because we all know where you actually stand. I understand, you have to be afraid to say anything against it, me, I'm just an infidel who isn't worried.

But to be an honest and intelligent person, you are going to have to start addressing it at some point.

Addressing what though?

You're complicating the discussion, needlessly.

My main point is that I can still be a patriot and love our great country, even though I don't like some of the things our government does, like support the Israeli Apartheid. My main point in saying that is that Palestinians don't have equal rights in Israel or the occupied territories, and further more Israel stops the Palestinians whenever they try to do the right thing, like join the UN or the Hague. When you spiral the discussion out to mecca and everything else you confuse the discussion. It's a patented right wing propaganda machine trick though.

So let's bring back to a pin point discussion. Because maybe I'm complicating things. Are the Palestinians really treated like second class citizens and is their life really bad? I think they are and I think it is bad for them. Countless sources and news sources all over the internet.

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: amazing



Now what does Mecca have to do with the USA, my country supporting an apartheid regime in Israel?

That's the crux of the matter.

Oh I see, you can't address it.

OK, no one will push you because we all know where you actually stand. I understand, you have to be afraid to say anything against it, me, I'm just an infidel who isn't worried.

But to be an honest and intelligent person, you are going to have to start addressing it at some point.

Addressing what though?

You're complicating the discussion, needlessly.

My main point is that I can still be a patriot and love our great country, even though I don't like some of the things our government does, like support the Israeli Apartheid. My main point in saying that is that Palestinians don't have equal rights in Israel or the occupied territories, and further more Israel stops the Palestinians whenever they try to do the right thing, like join the UN or the Hague. When you spiral the discussion out to mecca and everything else you confuse the discussion. It's a patented right wing propaganda machine trick though.

So let's bring back to a pin point discussion. Because maybe I'm complicating things. Are the Palestinians really treated like second class citizens and is their life really bad? I think they are and I think it is bad for them. Countless sources and news sources all over the internet.

The pin point discussion facts

1: Palestinians receive equal right in Israel.
2: Even the Nazis were patriotic.
3: You didn't read the link

But here are more links...

Muslims in Israel
More Muslims in Israel
Quote from an Arab Muslim in Israel

I can only blame Muslims’ common culture, mindset and their Madrasa based envenom education which used and abused to whole Muslims since centuries. I am convinced that their crisis is purely self-inflicted that has nothing to do with rest of the world.

And that from an Arab Muslim.

So who are you trying to convince? Why do you say you stand for peace and equal rights you aren't even addressing the core fundamental problems of the ideology that denies equal treatment for women and girls?

I am a woman, are you using the ideology of the American Constitution of equality for me, to support another ideology that denies that same right to women in Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan...and every Islamic country?

I have the right to speak and walk around in public without needing someone else to go with me. But you would want to take that away in support of an ideology that says I do not have that right? Crux of the issue, if you embrace equal rights then you need to recognize the greatest threat to equal rights.

a reply to: WarminIndyYou are speaking about muslims ive been reading this conversation and trying to figure out where you stand could you elaborate?

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: WarminIndyYou are speaking about muslims ive been reading this conversation and trying to figure out where you stand could you elaborate?

I am standing on this, while the US has certainly done things in the past, we are a progressive country that has learned from its mistakes and doing what we can to ensure equality and freedom.

While some people might want to wallow in the past, the US has only been a country for a little more than 250 years. Sure, we were here much longer, but as a nation, we have only been here a short time compared to many others.

In that 250 years we have managed to become a world superpower, it was not because Americans just decided one day to become progressive, we have had the influx of many different groups of people who assimilated, because they were looking for that American dream, even today millions upon millions are still seeking refuge here, because apparently we offer something not found elsewhere.

If there is something good enough here that people want and desire to find here, then I defend that, should I not?

We can't change the past, we can only learn from it and move forward. Shouldn't that be good?

a reply to: WarminIndy

I agree, sorry if I sounded rude was not intended

a reply to: WarminIndy

Being a first generation son of immigrants I can tell you first hand what is so attractive. I myself am trying to get my immigrant wife into the states. We lived in Europe and before that in the US. Our reason is the same as my parents. The American ethos is strong and formidable. It is based on noble convictions and honorable values of hard work, loyalty and good faith service to others without the trappings of corrupt and base ambitions.

The scope and direction of government may be something other than that, but as far as people and values on the street, that is where we stand as a country. Other places have a good thing going on too. The mentality and drive is where we stand apart.

The ambition of betterment and the sense of community and national family are unique in the way we approach them. Its not that other places dont have these qualities but our course is set by our history of defiance to abuse of the strong against the weak, and our identity as free people seeking balance and fairness in life. Again not unique to us, but unique enough to set ourselves apart from many.

I find kinship with many peoples in the world based on this common ground. My parting point is the US where I learned these values and virtues.

I wish the world and even some of our own people could see the US like immigrants do. There is a faith and promise to the way we perceive it. I know our government has it flaws, but our people are worthy and merit loyalty and consideration.

We are not the greatest, since saying that much would cheapen it by trying to quantify it.....we are everything we have built and become. To us we are the greatest country WE COULD build. The world may have more free places, more democratic places or less corrupt leadership in some places....but thus far, this is what we built and where we are at....I am damned proud of our home. I think its worthy of its place and justified in its endeavor to survive, prosper and grow.

I love my people, the land we inherited, and our ethos. I always thought that our true patriots shared that love and that this LOVE is what binds us.

So thats it. I am not nationalistic and arrogant like patriots are stigmatized as being. I am a loving son of my country and nothing will ever change that. Not the past with its mistakes and flaws, not the uncertain future we face, and not the words or actions of our enemies or unfaithful here within.

I am a patriot for the right reasons I believe and if not I am willing to learn. This country accepted my family and me into its home and heart and I will never repay that with disloyalty or regret....especially in dire straights. If our country is flawed and needing correction then our good faith and service have never been needed more. These things are not reason to ditch and run. They are reason to make your blood boil and from the love we feel in good times we must draw the strength to hunker down and persevere.

I say HOLD IT DOWN...Dont run and be ashamed. Build like those before you and dont give up. Do not tire and do not give in ever. Fight for your home and your people and in that find both their worth and the noble reason for the struggle you take on.

Honor in trying....shame in not.

Hold it down.

a reply to: tadaman

All I can say to that is applause, and Yes sir.

a reply to: tadaman

And that is it, I can say nothing more than you just have.

Good show.

a reply to: WarminIndy

I understand that women are second class citizens in most Islamic countries but that doesn't give Israel any right to do the same. Two wrongs never make a right.

www.seamac.org...

Try that on for size about Palestinian rights and their lives.

OP, if you are so disgusted with yourself, go back to Europe then.

We may have 'stolen' the land from the natives that were occupying it at the time, but those natives got it from another tribe that they conquered, which themselves probably got from a tribe THEY conquered. It's like everyone has said, groups of humans have been conquering other groups of humans since the first tribe stole a cow from a neighboring tribe. It is all universally evil and a part of ALL HUMANS PAST. If the end result is the same, the means really don't matter. Yes, Europeans sailed across the oceans and began settling. Europeans were an advantage they had: technological and knowledgeable superiority to spread their influence. But again, this has been happening since forever.

The Mongolians were able to conquer an enormous portion of the continent of Asia because of several advantages: Sheer manpower, advanced military tactics, sheer supplies. etc. They did as any people would do, which was press their advantage. Them pressing their advantages against lesser peoples netted them an empire nearly twice the size of Russia TODAY. Yep, you read that right, Mongols 750 years ago through the annihilation, enslavement and military conquest of indigenous peoples not only in the entirety of Asia, but also the Middle East and even a bit of Europe formed an empire twice as large as the modern worlds largest country. And they did it on horseback and quite literally by the sword, through direct conflict (IE, rode a horde into your village, killed your people en masse then said if you don't bend a knee we'll kill the rest of you or burn your farms). Where is your outrage against them? Better yet, how many people in the Mongolian Empire had the luxury of criticizing the Great Kahn the same as you have to criticize the country that has produced the highest standard of living the world has ever seen?

You want to complain about Europeans bringing over diseases to the American population? Maybe we just learned from the best, the Mongols who by some accounts, through the Siege of Caffa (I'm not going to link it for you, do the search yourself) actually may have been the catalyst for the Black Death. Yes, the same black death that killed between 75 and 200 million people. I guess the Mongols owe us up to twice as much reparations as we owe Native Americans if you go by body count. Sorry to inconvenience you with hard truths.

Let us move onto the Ottoman Empire (aka, a Muslim Caliphate, yep, just like the ones ISIS is trying to form right now)

Boy where do I begin, For the most party, they formed out of the decline of the Mongol Empire. What significant advantages did the Ottoman Empire have that allowed them to spread and conquer? Geography. They controlled Europe and Asia’s most vital trade route. If Europeans wanted to trade with Asia, it had to go through the Caliphate. And as the Muslims advanced and started killing off indigenous people, they forced them to convert, and kidnapped their young sons through Devsirme (by "occasional" levy, they mean annually) IN ADDITION to stealing Christian boys and forcing them to become soldiers for the Caliph, they charged a tax for being Non-Muslim

Next we move on to the Muslim slave trade. You have a problem with the Europeans buying slaves from African slavers and bringing them to the Americas? Well, just like the Mongols, we learned from the best. Sorry bud, the Muslims beat us ebil Europeans to the punch by about thousand years and could have possibly doubled the amount of slaves that went to the Americas (which, on a sidenote, literally only about 1/25ths of all African slaves went to the United States, the other 24 went to Central/South America and the Caribbean, in fact in the space of a mere decade, almost as many Irish Slaves got shipped to America as African Slaves did in more than 250 years) when Allah's Prophet Mohammed took part in trading African slaves and which was continued by the Ottoman Empire, again, enslaving up to twice the amount of Africans that were taken in the Atlantic Slave trade. . . . . long before the ebil Europeans set foot in Africa. I will end with this piece as well, something you don't hear about, and that you apologists and Liberals conveniently forget time and again, the Muslims were enslaving Europeans long before Europeans were enslaving Africans

Shall we move onto more recent, non-american attrocities?

Japanese War Crimes: In the space of only 2 decades, The Japanese, in an imperialist expansion are responsible for the deaths of up to 20 million. So, The Japanese kill almost half the total number of Native Americans that died in the space of 3 centuries. I charge you to find me an incident where Americans rounded up thousands of Native Americans and slaughtered them in cold blood like the Japanese did. All this in the name of expansion. Where is your outrage at them?

Mao Zedong's Great Leap Forward
If you actually diverted a little bit of your time away from every little Black Mark on America's past and the spread of Democracy. I charge you to find me an incident in the spread of Democracy that resulted in 40 million people starving to death alone, not even counting the millions that perished in work reform and prison camps. In fact, show me the democratic reform camps.

Joseph Stalin, 60 million dead in the name of Communism, do I need to provide a link?


I will leave this here, because I will not do all the work for you. It is up to you to be unbiased. I know America is responsible for some attrocities in it's history, but as has been said time and again, no country is without it's skeletons in the closet. Despite what has happened under America's watch, it is still the greatest country on Earth. No country today or in the past has had the standard of living that America has provided, has dedicated as much of it's own people to the assistance of other nations and oppressed people, provided direct material and monetary aid to impoverished countries while at the same time maintaining the level of diversity within it's own populace and also the ability and privilege to self criticize. Show me another country on this planet today or in the past that has the same level of diversity, has fought wars on the other side of the planet for an oppressed people under threat from genocide, and provided aid to countries that wish it's demise. Show me another country with the same level of religious freedom and diversity. No other country on the planet today or ever in the past has had as a diverse religious adherence as America.

Again, if you are so ashamed to be an American, by all means move to a country that hasn't been swayed by ebil America's ways. Move to Iran, Move to Saudi Arabia and tell me how free your wife is to do what she wants. Women aren't even allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. Iran? I hope your wife doesn't have any male friends, they might stone her to death.

Damn right I love America. And as much as it pains me to read your Anti-American drivel, I support your right to say such things, because they ought not be forgotten. But to that extent, they don’t need to be thrown around every time you have it hard on life, or someone gives you a sob story. Much MUCH more tragic things have happened to people throughout history. America is not anywhere near the top in them.

a reply to: roncoallstar

Yes , you Maybe Got a Problem with that ?


i297.photobucket.com...

a reply to: WarminIndy

That's ok, we reserve the name Patriot for our New England football team. 

Tom Brady, best Patriot quarterback ever. Ethan Allen, another great patriot. Ever hear of him?

Nope, can't stand american football. I am a soccer fan.

originally posted by: Jay-morris
a reply to: WarminIndy

That's ok, we reserve the name Patriot for our New England football team. 

Tom Brady, best Patriot quarterback ever. Ethan Allen, another great patriot. Ever hear of him?

Nope, can't stand american football. I am a soccer fan.

That's nice.

I need to check the internet to see how many games Ethan Allen won, but he played on a Vermont team.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Jay-morris
a reply to: WarminIndy

That's ok, we reserve the name Patriot for our New England football team. 

Tom Brady, best Patriot quarterback ever. Ethan Allen, another great patriot. Ever hear of him?

Nope, can't stand american football. I am a soccer fan.

That's nice.

I need to check the internet to see how many games Ethan Allen won, but he played on a Vermont team.

Yeah, that's nice.

originally posted by: Jay-morris

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Jay-morris
a reply to: WarminIndy

That's ok, we reserve the name Patriot for our New England football team. 

Tom Brady, best Patriot quarterback ever. Ethan Allen, another great patriot. Ever hear of him?

Nope, can't stand american football. I am a soccer fan.

That's nice.

I need to check the internet to see how many games Ethan Allen won, but he played on a Vermont team.

Yeah, that's nice.

Ethan Allen, Frances Marrion, you should know these guys if you know history. But why should you know the history of the patriots who sent the British packing?

You know, it is really funny, we know your history, we know Wellington, General Cornwallis, Oliver Cromwell, King George (I, II and III), William of Orange, William and Mary, King Charles (I and II). We know all your great leaders and not so great leaders, and yet you don't know two of our patriots? Did they deprive you of that knowledge in your school?

Of course, why should you know of anyone's history other than your own.

We know Shaka Zulu, we know the Crimean War, we know the British spice trade in India, we know the Opium Wars in China. We know all about your history. Amazing, isn't it?