Malaysian 777 Passenger Airline Shot Down Over Eastern Ukraine

originally posted by: jedi_hamster
a reply to: Xcathdra

if those responsible for the lies behind 9/11 or saddam or anything else are the same ones that are behind the lies about ukraine and now about this plane crash, then it's all connected and entirely on topic.

of course, people remembering the lies of US government are bad for bussiness, for some at least.

Wow so now we move on to a huge plot by the powers that be huh. Tell you what instead of speculating aliens Bigfoot or the Illuminati want not post proof of a conspiracy by all means will look at it. See in order to get people to believe you they require something called evidence not speculation or musing you seem to have.

good read with some interesting facts

In the days since the downing of MH17 a lot of people have jumped to conclusions prematurely. Evidence provided by the Ukrainian Security Service, combined with the results of social media investigations, suggests the Ukrainian authorities have been less than honest in key disclosures of information to date.

humanrightsinvestigations.org...

a reply to: dragonridr

dragonridr, you shouldn't discount anything put up as evidence since the ones who blame Putin, have only supplied rhetoric at the highest levels like Kerry recently did when he provided 'undeniable evidence' which was barely evidence at all on CBS.
The administration hardly knows what's going on, unless, of course, they had a hand in it. Don't berate jedi_hamster for not providing enough evidence. None of us have as much as we'd like to have to go on. That's why we're on ATS and not CNN or Fox.

a reply to: cosmonova

Interesting article and source seems unbiased. We may get to the bottom of this yet!

GP

originally posted by: cosmonova
good read with some interesting facts

In the days since the downing of MH17 a lot of people have jumped to conclusions prematurely. Evidence provided by the Ukrainian Security Service, combined with the results of social media investigations, suggests the Ukrainian authorities have been less than honest in key disclosures of information to date.

humanrightsinvestigations.org...
ottom one

Yeah i saw that earlier i was interested until doing some investigating turns out the top one is a picture of the Buk M2 the bottom ones are supposed to be Buk m1s. Apparently there is a difference in the front cowlings and there is a laser range finder on top Buk m2 that the m1 didnt have.

originally posted by: ghostpigeon
a reply to: dragonridr

dragonridr, you shouldn't discount anything put up as evidence since the ones who blame Putin, have only supplied rhetoric at the highest levels like Kerry recently did when he provided 'undeniable evidence' which was barely evidence at all on CBS.
The administration hardly knows what's going on, unless, of course, they had a hand in it. Don't berate jedi_hamster for not providing enough evidence. None of us have as much as we'd like to have to go on. That's why we're on ATS and not CNN or Fox.

i dont mind examine evidence but when it hids into fantasies of dead bodies being sent on planes just to have it shot down, well as they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I dont speculate on possibilities i much rather examine the evidence and see what conclusions can be drawn from it.

a reply to: dragonridr

Sensible stance. Long way to go before we get the final evidence on this one. One thing I can't seem to figure out is how to post images from my library on ATS. I would have some pictures if I could. Can you help me out on this? I have some screenshots on my desktop I'd like to use and tried to save them to my library, but they don't come up when I try to use the post link function. Any advice appreciated!

a reply to: DaFunk

YES!, this is a perfectly plausable theory!

Ok, hear me out [_context_is_key_], As of now I'm in Canada and I'm experiencing the Western side of propaganda about this event (news, friends and co-workers). My parents on the other hand are Russian, living here as well, where they usually watch Russian news and discuss in their circles.

So here I am being equally treated by both sides of the propaganda coin and I've come to a few ideas about this leaked conversation: [_context_is_key_], these are two different audio clips from different times mashed together and presented in a nice convenient package where we lose the respective contexts and believe that the first audio segment is connected directly with the second one. I had also seen a Russian news segment where a thorough analysis is done of the audio revealing that the times and dates don't match up [_context_is_key_], so essentially the leaked audio package was (ingeniously) organized by the Ukranian government to be the smoking gun piece of evidence to who shot MH17 down and blame the separatists/Russians.

I was hesitant at first to say anything on a forum or facebook about it because people wouldn't seem to believe it but I just noticed DaFunk's comment (much respect) and the pieces started to make sense. I went to see if I can find anything on the Western side of things about it and a great article from Zero Hedge came up also revealing the true nature of the leaked conversation:

www.zerohedge.com...

The pieces start to fit for this whole puzzle. The popular reality seemed too easy, too convenient. Once you start looking for the clues a different reality emerges that is much more complex.

I'm honestly amazed at how Ukraine's Propaganda Ministry had concocted such a devilishly clever piece of "evidence" to swindle the entire world for its actions. They're using every trick in the book to promote their fascist ideology and get away with it. Gaddamn history keeps rhyming with itself over and over because we're too close-minded and forgetful of our historical contexts.

[_context_is_key_]

originally posted by: jedi_hamster
a reply to: Xcathdra

if those responsible for the lies behind 9/11 or saddam or anything else are the same ones that are behind the lies about ukraine and now about this plane crash, then it's all connected and entirely on topic.

of course, people remembering the lies of US government are bad for bussiness, for some at least.

So you are incapable of remaining on topic.

Fair enough.

The Pro Russian rebel leader stated Ukraine closed the airspace. Ukraine did not close the airspace. It was restricted 32k feet and below.

The plane was at 33k feet, which would place it above the restriction and in open unrestricted airspace.

Can we move to the next topic or do we get to constantly correct your argument, like we had to do to the others who tried unsuccessfully to make the same failed argument 30+ pages back?

originally posted by: ghostpigeon
a reply to: Xcathdra

What training? And what science are using. Answer is you're not. You're depending on mainstream media as far as I can see. And the logic you are using is illogic, but I don't blame you for that. Not much about this makes sense. If you have an agenda why don't you just come with it. If you're trained, tell us what you training is.

GP

Science - The standard used in pretty much every country on this planet. Something the rebels and some others commenting apparently are not aware of. Since you seem to be an expert, answer my questions on terminal velocity, explain how an item made of cloth falling from 33k feet is going to suffer the same damage as a person falling from 33k feet.

Since there is a 10 mile debris field from point of impact with the missile to the farthest debris located, please explain, using your science, why every item involved should be charred from fire? Please explain to us, using your science, how angle of descent / velocity will cause uniform damage to every item on the plane, including bodies. Please explain to us, using your science, what type of force is needed to crush human bones / internal organs while the outside of the body remains intact.

Please explain, using your science, how body decomposition is affected. Be sure to take into account injuries, illnesses, medications, absence of blood, humidity. In addition make sure you take into account the various stages of decomposition, the length of time it takes for each stage. Don't forget to include the environmental variables for decomp. This will include any injuries sustained where outside conditions can penetrate the body through various wounds / cuts / scrapes. It should also include any biological interaction between bacteria / animal life in the crash area. Be sure to include any burns on the bodies, and the extent of those burns and their impact on the body.

Heat, cold, humidity, contact transfer when people come into the area, moving from body to body. When those bodies are dragged through the wreckage...

And that does not include the forensics required for the aircraft itself. Those forensics can determine where the plane took the primary hit. Did the missile kill anyone in the process? What damage did the missile do resulting in the loss of control / disintegration of the aircraft. I can keep going but I think you get the idea.

You have an opinion - thats fine. If you wish to argue then you should make sure you know what the hell you are talking about.

originally posted by: jedi_hamster
a reply to: Xcathdra

if those responsible for the lies behind 9/11 or saddam or anything else are the same ones that are behind the lies about ukraine and now about this plane crash, then it's all connected and entirely on topic.

of course, people remembering the lies of US government are bad for bussiness, for some at least.

What about the Soviet lies about KAL #007? If they shot that plane down and lied this situation would be no different.

Your game works both ways.. How about we keep it to the topic at hand instead of rehashing the same bs from 30 pages ago?

originally posted by: ghostpigeon
a reply to: jedi_hamster

I'm with Jedi_hamster. Xcathedra said she used history and science and in both cases, history and science are overthrown when Xcathedra needs too. It's not wrong to bring those things in.

Refute the facts and dont attack the person.

Secondly I am a he, not a she.

Third at no point have I ever dismissed science. As for history I am referring to previous similar incidents and not world history.

originally posted by: ghostpigeon
a reply to: dragonridr

dragonridr, you shouldn't discount anything put up as evidence since the ones who blame Putin, have only supplied rhetoric at the highest levels like Kerry recently did when he provided 'undeniable evidence' which was barely evidence at all on CBS.
The administration hardly knows what's going on, unless, of course, they had a hand in it. Don't berate jedi_hamster for not providing enough evidence. None of us have as much as we'd like to have to go on. That's why we're on ATS and not CNN or Fox.

Really?

Please explain the difference between what Kerry did and what Putin did right after the crash broke on the news. In case you ignored it Putin and his cronies went on tv and blamed Ukraine, immediately, for the incident.

Double standard or what?

a reply to: dimaryp

The time stamp was explained earlier that was a problem on YouTube the speech released by the Obama white house did the same exact thing it shows one day earlier. So that was a problem with the YouTube server itself the time line for release is very clear.It went on youtube after the SBU in Ukraine made there press briefing. Now as for not knowing the identity of the two people with code names this is true however a CNN reporter in Moscow was able to identify one of the voices as a local militia commander in donbas who had detained her and her news crew it was earlier in the thread. So at least she thought she knew who it was. But either way if they were talking about the military flight or thee passenger jet it also still confirms separatists had a Buk missile system. So even if Ukraine played games or misinterpreted which plane they were discussing is irrelevant it only removes the admission of guilt. Now if Bezler hadnt made the mistake a posted or bragged they shot down a Ukrainian aircraft, only to realize it was a passenger jet and remove it from his web page id say maybe. The other key thing is he mentions visiting the sight and later pictures were released of him visiting the sight of the crash. In the pictures you can see it wasnt what he expected at all.

Also ill say Ukraine is trying to play it like they did it on purpose and cold and heartless.I do not believe the separatists did it on purpose i do think they thought it was a Ukrainian aircraft and had it been we would of just heard them brag about shooting down another aircraft.They wrongly assumed any aircraft in the area must be Ukraine's they made a mistake. If they catch these people they will be accused of murder and i dont believe it should apply. Its not the first time a military made a mistake look at Russia and the US both have done it. Now as far as the handling of the bodies i just think its pure ineptitude they do not have the command structure to handle this obvious by drunk guards. The part i do fault them for is they should have moved away from the crash and allow others to handle it. In fact if Ukraine dropped the ball it would have just helped them out than they could say see what there doing to them poor peoples bodies. They royally messed this up.

www.chinatopix.com...



Dutch Cyclist Escaped Death Twice After Switching
Tickets on Both Malaysian Flights MH370 and MH17

a reply to: Xcathdra

actually Xcathdra science is not a field of training. biology, astronomy, electrical conduction, anatomy, zoology, podiatry, what? what kind of science? why were there unburned bodies inside the fuselage which is burned to crisp throughout. How could their shirts not be burned, or their skin? what does your 'science tell you about that? I think your science is propaganda Himmler was a scientist too in that way. My sceience is political science and I was trained to recognize propaganda when when I read it.

originally posted by: rigel4
www.chinatopix.com...



Dutch Cyclist Escaped Death Twice After Switching
Tickets on Both Malaysian Flights MH370 and MH17

Bet you couldnt pay him yo get on there airline again.

originally posted by: ghostpigeon
a reply to: Xcathdra

actually Xcathdra science is not a field of training. biology, astronomy, electrical conduction, anatomy, zoology, podiatry, what? what kind of science? why were there unburned bodies inside the fuselage which is burned to crisp throughout. How could their shirts not be burned, or their skin? what does your 'science tell you about that? I think your science is propaganda Himmler was a scientist too in that way. My sceience is political science and I was trained to recognize propaganda when when I read it.

Parts of fuselage was burned and others were not do you realize the fuel tanks survived the crash intact. Its not unheard of for some bodies to be burned and others not. This is what crash scene investigators do they put everyone in there seats and figure out what happened to each person as the crash occurred. Dont think thats likely now though because part of it involves also where they land and im betting no record was kept. So explaining an individuals condition was made much more difficult with them not knowing what there doing.

a reply to: Xcathdra

how was I supposed to know you were a she or he. I guess I should I have called you just hey you! Seriously, science is not a field past middle school. What is your field of science? It doesn't sound like you have a specialty and I don't hear anything scientific coming out of you, one can't get off Yahoo news, I have to go to bed soon, but this thread will probably be here tomorrow.

US says recordings of Ukraine rebels admitting MH17 downing 'authentic'

Kiev (AFP) - Alleged intercepted phone conversations released by Ukraine’s security service of pro-Russian rebels discussing how they shot down Malaysian airliner MH17 are genuine, the US embassy in Kiev said Sunday.

Ukraine's SBU security agency on Thursday released recordings of what it claimed were phone talks involving rebels and a Russian military intelligence officer admitting that they had hit the passenger jet after mistaking it for a military aircraft.

Click link for remainder of article.