Dr. Jacques Vallee ~ The Control System

reply to post by Bybyots


I'll start looking at historical/mythological background so if anyone wants to reopen the case i'll help out, it's really only TheGuts threads that have got me interested, but i had a listen to Chris O'brian today on the background to the case and was struck by the emergence of the 40 foot long triangular craft from the spirial vortex, from the ancient Sumerian perspective that would be the Anzu bird, from the native American the Thunderbird, so in that sense the case has everything, nuts and bolt craft, perceptual distortion and shamanic/demonic possession type experience, mystical orbs, the works...i need to learn how to summon an Anzu bird

Sumerian Flying Wing

Okay,

One more and I'll get out the way.

Have you ever tried Googling: "Plato's cave schematic"? It's the "schematic" part that cracks me up because as a student, I too went home and started drawing elaborate schematics of The Cave and it was nice to know I'm not the only one that's crazy like that. For me, I became fascinated with it because, well, I'm interested in systems science and SCADA, and it intersted me how Plato's machine, The Cave presented a Double-Bind, "damned if you do and damned if you don't"; a person in The Cave is screwed, but a person that escapes The Cave is even more screwed. You know Gregory Bateson thought those types of double-binds were the basis of paranoid schizophrenia, but as usual, I digress.

So to entertain myself I am wondering how JV's control system really differs from Plato's Cave, here is a description of his "control system"..

These prisoners have been imprisoned in such a way that their legs and necks are fixed, forcing them to gaze at a wall in front of them, unable to move their heads. Behind the prisoners is a fire, and between the fire and the prisoners is a raised walkway.

Along this walkway is a low wall, behind which people walk carrying objects "...including figures of men and animals made of wood, stone and other materials.". In this way, the walking people are compared to puppeteers and the low wall to the screen over which puppeteers display their puppets.

Since these walking people are behind the wall on the walkway, their bodies do not cast shadows on the wall faced by the prisoners, but the objects they carry do. The prisoners cannot see any of this behind them, being only able to view the shadows cast upon the wall in front of them. There are also echoes off the shadowed wall of sounds the people walking on the road sometimes make, which the prisoners falsely believe are caused by the shadows.

Socrates suggests that, for the prisoners, the shadows of artifacts would constitute reality. They would not realize that what they see are shadows of the artifacts, which are themselves inspired by real humans and animals outside of the cave.

Furthermore, the prisoners would "assign credit and prestige" to whomever among them could quickly remember which shadows came before, predict which shadows would follow and name which shadows were normally found together.
Departure from the Cave

?

Klassified
reply to post by The GUT

 

I haven't read the whole thread yet, GUT. But if I may toss out a thought...

Why does Vallee hesitate to be "too specific?"

Because being too specific lets the cat out of the bag, and skews the test of the control system. If you are trying to subtly goad someone into acting, or reacting, you don't tell them how you are doing it. Especially if you are trying to "infiltrate" a system using it's own feedback. Hopefully that made sense.

Also because he is fishing for feedback from the rest of the world. "Crowdsourcing" the problem, if you will.

If anyone followed the BadBIOS story, it presented identically: posit something fantastic, on the edge of reality, but just barely possible, and watch the experts chime in with their explanations of how the phenomenon could function.

nugget1
Are we not born into the heart of a control system? Our life cycle is automatically controlled, and scientist work fervently to discover how to override it.

Our pineal gland is suspect of having access to the 'control panel', so anything used to block its function would keep us from discovering the source.

Are some factions trying to block our access to the mainframe?

In the post around page 45 that describes in detail the industrial control systems which JV based his model on, it points out that an always-on connection to the mainframe (HMI, human-machine-interface, what have you) is a prerequisite for the appropriate systems monitoring and possible response.

This connection may be 'firewalled' in a way. I think that's what you're getting at if I understand correctly. Interesting sidetrack.

Willtell
The primary control system that rules or misrules humans is his twisted mind.

A mind so f up that any alien culture would be crazier than us to communicate with us directly.
All this talk about trickster is another external delusional devil theory
The real trickster is the human inclination to self deception.

A few untwisted minded people have come from time to time to warn us of THIS: Krishna, LaoTzu, Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc., that this twisted mind can be cultivated into an untwisted state where we can become humans who won’t erect weapons of mass murder and will feed children in the earth who starve to death rather than letting Bill Gates accumulate 80BILLION DOLLARS!

Valllee is a nice guy but an intellectual snob who thinks that “science’ can figure everything out.

Perhaps it should save us since it is science that has created the means to destroy us.
But it won't and can’t save us, why? And it isn’t being used, as it should, to feed the whole world, why?
So the very leaders we have elected are still stuck with super twisted minds and souls so NOTHING GETS DONE.

Willtell, I agree that humankind's "twisted mind" is the primary contributor to the doom the world is headed toward...but....
...let me posit you this: Couldn't it be that humans are victims to a "Control System" which effected the twisting of their minds?

After all, no one chooses to go or to be insane, and yet isn't that the very definition of a twisted mind, insane?

Even "self deception" - deceiving oneself - is that the mark of a 'sane' mind?

I don't mean to say that this is the case with all humans, some of us are quite capable of choosing to do 'evil' by our own free will...

But when you talk about humanity in general, when you look at the history of the continued worsening of conditions in the world, and mark you, for everything we've improved, we've messed up at least 10 more, it is obvious that the majority of the damage is not being done by those who can see reason..and inability to be 'reasoned with' = not sane...

So the question isn't, "Why can't humanity get control of their twisted minds?"

The question is, "What (or who) was it that twisted our minds in the first place?"...

Because if there's one thing that "The Control System" theory hits the money on, it is the fact that humanity as a whole are in no way living out of free will...

And in fact it is less and less so, as this thread has shown (propaganda, viral memes, TV's effect on our kids..ect., ect.)

Humankind were inflicted with insanity....We did not choose to go insane....We were 'driven' there.

And now the question becomes (as many on the thread were asking several pages ago), is there anything that can be done about it?

Anyone wanna play poke the "Control System"?

reply to post by lostgirl
To follow-up...
I want to express that I feel there are (at least) two control systems...

Just for ease of reference: the governmental one and the supernatural one

My 'leanings' are that the governmental 'system is being 'driven' by the supernatural one...

lostgirl
reply to post by lostgirl

 

To follow-up...
I want to express that I feel there are (at least) two control systems...

Just for ease of reference: the governmental one and the supernatural one

My 'leanings' are that the governmental 'system is being 'driven' by the supernatural one...

There is this common misconception which has driven this thread off topic into paranoia countless times already.

Vallee was using a very specific meaning of the phrase "control system", not referring to Big Brother:

ICSs [Industrial Control Systems] are typically used in industries such as electrical, water, oil, gas and data. Based on data received from remote stations, automated or operator-driven supervisory commands can be pushed to remote station control devices, which are often referred to as field devices. Field devices control local operations such as opening and closing valves and breakers, collecting data from sensor systems, and monitoring the local environment for alarm conditions

en.wikipedia.org...

So you see our task is even more difficult: how can a field device even operate outside the constraints designed for it by the operators?

Autograf

nugget1
Are we not born into the heart of a control system? Our life cycle is automatically controlled, and scientist work fervently to discover how to override it.

Our pineal gland is suspect of having access to the 'control panel', so anything used to block its function would keep us from discovering the source.

Are some factions trying to block our access to the mainframe?

In the post around page 45 that describes in detail the industrial control systems which JV based his model on, it points out that an always-on connection to the mainframe (HMI, human-machine-interface, what have you) is a prerequisite for the appropriate systems monitoring and possible response.

This connection may be 'firewalled' in a way. I think that's what you're getting at if I understand correctly. Interesting sidetrack.

Sort of. I was thinking we were given a 'body' to house our consciousness and a basic program to create a reality of choice.
To alter the basic program for creative purposes we would need to access the mainframe.

For most people, I think peace and harmony would be their creative choice; for others, power, greed and fame.

If 'The Others' had the ability to maintain the status quo through false or misleading info, chemicals,folklore, or any other control means....well, it might create a way to protect the 'top 1%.

In order to be under the influence of a Controller, we would need to not be aware of and use our ability to control them.

Autograf

There is this common misconception which has driven this thread off topic into paranoia countless times already.

Vallee was using a very specific meaning of the phrase "control system", not referring to Big Brother:

So you see our task is even more difficult: how can a field device even operate outside the constraints designed for it by the operators?

I'm sorry, I didn't express myself clearly...I was not at all referring to a "big brother" scenario...when I used the term "governmental", my intention was to provide a 'term' which could be used in describing the driving forces behind government initiated programs (which are certainly intended for use as a control 'system' of some sort) as, Electronic warfare, Disinformation, Dissemination of propaganda, etc...
...all of which have been verified as 'genuine' government actions and thus not used by me in any paranoiac sense....

And then the term, "supernatural' was intended to convey the strictly Vallee'esqu "Control System", which is defined by Vallee as most likely not residing within the bounds of the 'natural' world...

I don't think I was off topic in trying to 'define' simple references for the two wildly divergent "Control Systems" talked about within this thread...

Autograf
So you see our task is even more difficult: how can a field device even operate outside the constraints designed for it by the operators?

What if we are being 'controlled' by a "device" within a device?
Maybe we are being manipulated by a 'faction' who are themselves being manipulated by "the operators"?

Also, it's different when you're talking about 'field devices' who are consciously aware that there may be both device and operators...

I mean, two mice in a maze are never going to sit down together and discuss how they might get the attention of the chief scientist, so they can tell him they would please like a new brand of cheese...

reply to post by The GUT


I wonder if perhaps a lot of these paranormal, UFO, and psy-ops events, as well as the presence of disinfo agents like Doty, Aquino, Green, and Alexander aren't all a wave of overwhelming data perpetrated by the 'controllers', the heads of the control system so-as to weaken and/or confuse the minds of the general public so much that they don't know who or what to trust anymore.

Once all faith in institutions has been eradicated, perhaps they can move onto the next phase of whatever their agenda is. A weakened and confused mind may well be ripe for taking over in some 'Manchurian Candidate' fashion, except on a massive scale due to the proliferation of control technology like Facebook, Twitter, and AMA threads with the 'controllers' here on ATS.

Maybe they could get Doty in for an AMA

reply to post by lostgirl


I'm afraid we're still talking about an overly simplistic view of the idea of a control system, one where we do understand all the parameters and can comprehend the overall - as with society's feedback loops.

In the case of the UFO phenomenon, even if we accept JV's control system model, we're still completely unsure which parameters are being controlled!

This is not about docile humans, nowhere near as simple as an example of government's industrial-type controls: "If citizens don't pay enough taxes, threaten them with lots of stories in the newspaper about tax dodgers, in order to return tax collection levels to a normal level". We have little idea what JV's controllers are even aiming for.

The government and scientists are taking control of investigating 'high strangeness' for us, so we don't have to bother wondering about it any more. We have much more important things to worry about, like who's going to win the AMA's.

If some thing important comes up, they'll let us know.

So far, there's not much to the paranormal; some admit to a 'little' strangeness, but nothing of importance...and nothing that can be scientifically proven...so it's really a non-issue.
(end sarcasm)

The paranormal has effectively been pushed to the back burner of peoples minds, with just enough info trickling out to satisfy the curious, and possibly keep us from feeling the need to investigate on our own.

I bet they hate people like The Gut!

Autograf
reply to post by lostgirl

 

I'm afraid we're still talking about an overly simplistic view of the idea of a control system, one where we do understand all the parameters and can comprehend the overall - as with society's feedback loops.

In the case of the UFO phenomenon, even if we accept JV's control system model, we're still completely unsure which parameters are being controlled!

This is not about docile humans, nowhere near as simple as an example of government's industrial-type controls: "If citizens don't pay enough taxes, threaten them with lots of stories in the newspaper about tax dodgers, in order to return tax collection levels to a normal level". We have little idea what JV's controllers are even aiming for.

What part of "supernatural" i.e. 'outside the bounds of the natural', disagrees with your view that 'we don't know "which parameters are being controlled!"?

Because it looks to me like you're just arguing semantics here....

And if you think that what you've described as government "controls" is what I've been talking about, than may I redirect you to Gut's recent writings (pg 48? 49?) and his links re: "government" on this thread, because I am apparently doing a very poor job of expressing my alignment with his 'take' on certain government activities as 'control system'...

I'm afraid we're still talking about an overly simplistic view of the idea of a control system, one where we do understand all the parameters and can comprehend the overall

reply to post by Autograf


If there is a control panel, maybe shamans and mystics have accessed it for centuries.
Could be that the 'program' is written in a language that we don't understand yet, and that is what the research is trying to uncover.

reply to post by lostgirl


Pretty sure we're chasing our tails at this point. Semantics are important, though. The precise meaning of the language JV used seems to escape a lot of the casual readers.

Autograf
reply to post by lostgirl

 

Pretty sure we're chasing our tails at this point. Semantics are important, though. The precise meaning of the language JV used seems to escape a lot of the casual readers.

Well, you chased mine first...

So if you were operating a program and a bunch of field devices started jumping up and down yelling, "Hey look at me, look at me!",
what would you do?

reply to post by Autograf


Every character on the stage, including Vallee, and no doubt kpb, and all the motley crew are being controlled to some degree; so we need to take them all with big grains of salt. Trying to turn Vallee and semantics about computer science or manufacturing control systems into a 'bible' is the very essence of tail chasing.

humans need to change...so their perceptual bias changes...then perhaps the tail chasing can change. This is a challenge for me too.

It saddens me too but we can't just put Vallee on coordinates 0,0,0 and flow chart from there.

I believe it has been said by another poster that Vallee left things a little undefined many times, perhaps fishing for someone else to be stimulated into thinking outside of HIS BOX.

Kev

reply to post by lostgirl


Layoff the booze

KellyPrettyBear
reply to post by lostgirl

 

Layoff the booze

layoff my friends. word.

In the meantime, most of y'all are making this an incredible thread. Thank you. I'm working on some replies now.