Mirage Men is out.

The GUT
If memory serves, wasn't Doty also involved in a very suspect UFO report at Kirtland that predated the majority of the Bennewitz affair?

Looks like it was Bill Moore too!

In my previous studies of early cases in the southwest I had run across the name Edward A. Doty, who is mentioned in the final report an Project Twinkle. (Project Twinkle had been set up in the late 1940's and early 1950"s to obtain data an the green fireball phenomena and other objects that were seen near military installations in the southwest.) In 1951 Edward Doty was a Major and he was stationed at Holloman AFB, where he was involved with the Project Twinkle investigations. I mentioned the name Edward Doty and asked Richard if Edward was his father. Richard confirmed that Edward was his father. (Note: I subsequently learned that actually Edward Doty was not his father but another relative.) He then told me that he had discussed UFO sightings with his father.

Well. My eyebrows are kinda raised.

I don't want to derail anyones conversation but this is kind of related and I don't know where else to put this.

Some idiot has created fake Twitter accounts for Paul Bennewitz and Bill Moore.



I don't think they realize they're using Bill Birnes photo for the Bill Moore account.

I think The GUT might have been referring to the so called "Weitzel letter." It was sent directly to APRO in July of 1980 with no return address, supposedly months before Bennewitz contacted the Air Force.

My opinion is that this was probably Doty trying to lure Bill Moore. Earlier that year (January) Moore had published the first book about Roswell, The Roswell Incident, and Moore was working for APRO at the time. I doubt this is a coincidence.

I always had the impression the Bennewitz campaign was about something bigger than Paul Bennewitz. This is just my opinion but I think they saw an opportunity to discredit Moore (who had just brought up the subject of Roswell to the public eye), get rid of Bennewitz, and muddy the waters for the whole UFO community.

Based on what has happened since and what people still believe today I think they achieved all their goals.

JadeStar
@TheGUT: Can you send me a U2U with the info you have on Hal Putoff being involved in the Serpo story? I am doing some research that his name has come up in, independent of the Serpo story and I had no idea he was involved in that.

I'm willing to share what I have with you privately.

Will do. There are, in my estimation, some very important details and documentation surrounding the SERPO allegations that seem to have escaped most researchers. For various understandable reasons some of these materials cannot be posted on ATS...and without them it's much harder to bring some of the finer points of this discussion into full context. Hal Puthoff's role being one of them. It creates a "hands tied" situation to what I consider a significant degree when shedding sufficient light on these particular issues/players and motives.

I mention that here because I'm hoping to get some of our better "diggers" to peruse this little-known and rather "buried" info.

Btw, you're growing on me JadeStar. You are a great addition here at ATS I've come to see.

1ofthe9
Looks like it was Bill Moore too!

I'll look for it later when I have a little more time--and scour Macabee's article in more depth--but a quick look at the article seems to miss the discrepancies between what the original witness allegedly reported and what ended up in the official report.

Could be wrong on that, but I'm fairly certain there are issues with that report and a later interview with the main witness contradicts some details.

Btw: High-powered laser research at Kirtland and surrounding labs? Who mentioned that here? Good call. Puthoff anyone?

The GUT
Btw: High-powered laser research at Kirtland and surrounding labs? Who mentioned that here? Good call. Puthoff anyone?

It was JadeStar back on page 2. Was this a reference to the Starfire Optical Range?

Robert Fugate, who still heads the Range, was at Kirtland at the time of Bennewitz campaign. Doty claimed they smuggled Fugate into Bennewitz's house once to have a look at the devices he had built.

From 1970 to 1979 Fugate was doing research at Wright-Patterson, the base where some claim the Roswell debris and bodies were sent.

This story is full of coincidences

The GUT

1ofthe9
Looks like it was Bill Moore too!

Btw: High-powered laser research at Kirtland and surrounding labs? Who mentioned that here? Good call. Puthoff anyone?

edit on 4-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

High powered lasers you say?

My hunch is that the electrogravity black projects went hand in hand with the corporate UFO research that popped up in the 1960's by McDonnell Douglas and others. In 1977 we have Persinger tying geomagnetic/electromagnetic phenomena to distortions of space time. Cue 1985, paper on transversable wormholes...etc.

FelixB
It was JadeStar back on page 2. Was this a reference to the Starfire Optical Range?

Where did you come from, Felix? Glad you are here! Yeah, Starfire was at least a piece of the puzzle, but there's more laser stuff and exotic propulsion aspects. Maybe even "invisibility." A look at the map and UFO lore demonstrates that that whole area of the West is smack full of secret labs/bases, cutting-edge technology, and ubiquitous strangeness. Got company but I'll try and put some materials together later this evening. Obviously a lot of it won't be new to you, and some others here, but I bet we can gain some traction for further inquiry.

Robert Fugate, who still heads the Range, was at Kirtland at the time of Bennewitz campaign. Doty claimed they smuggled Fugate into Bennewitz's house once to have a look at the devices he had built.

From 1970 to 1979 Fugate was doing research at Wright-Patterson, the base where some claim the Roswell debris and bodies were sent.

This story is full of coincidences

Great points. And, yeah, those ever-present coincidences are surely notable and worthy of contemplation. There's another fellow mentioned in Greg Valdez' 'Dulce Base' that remains un-named but seems to be identifiable and probably needs to be to shed a little more light. Anyone familiar with that aspect/person?

The GUT

FelixB
It was JadeStar back on page 2. Was this a reference to the Starfire Optical Range?

Where did you come from, Felix? Glad you are here! Yeah, Starfire was at least a piece of the puzzle, but there's more laser stuff and exotic propulsion aspects. Maybe even "invisibility." A look at the map and UFO lore demonstrates that that whole area of the West is smack full of secret labs/bases, cutting-edge technology, and ubiquitous strangeness. Got company but I'll try and put some materials together later this evening. Obviously a lot of it won't be new to you, and some others here, but I bet we can gain some traction for further inquiry.

Thanks to both of you. I am going to pour through this.

1ofthe9

The GUT

1ofthe9
Looks like it was Bill Moore too!

Btw: High-powered laser research at Kirtland and surrounding labs? Who mentioned that here? Good call. Puthoff anyone?

edit on 4-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

High powered lasers you say?

My hunch is that the electrogravity black projects went hand in hand with the corporate UFO research that popped up in the 1960's by McDonnell Douglas and others. In 1977 we have Persinger tying geomagnetic/electromagnetic phenomena to distortions of space time. Cue 1985, paper on transversable wormholes...etc.

Might as well throw in Alan C. Holt from NASA JSC. He co-authored a paper with Eric Davis and Hal Putoff..

More in my next post.

This was like my first post on ATS and was directed at George Knapp in the "Ask Me Anything" thread ATS had for him.:

---snip---
In my own research I've been looking for links between the above ground science world and the 'black' world with regards to UFO research. I've been specifically looking into areas regarding advanced propulsion physics people who appear to have feet in both worlds, perhaps acting as liaisons between them (for whatever reason).

Have you looked into either of these guys??? Alan C. Holt and Marc Millis

The reason I ask is because both of these guys have been involved in research and crossed some interesting paths which may or may not be able to verify at least part of Bob Lazar's story.

I apologize for the length of the material below but it is just the tip of a bunch of stuff I've found which you might be interested in and it serves as a good starting point.

Alan C. Holt - NASA - Johnson Spaceflight Center (where he has been based since the 1980s), former head of MUFON's Advanced Propulsion Workshop (while still working at NASA) and publisher of the following papers:
"TM-80961; JSC-16073 N80-19184 - Field Reseonance Propulsion Concept - National Aeronautics & Space Administration - Washington, DC - August 79"

ntrs.nasa.gov...
Image of the above document in case it is offline: i.imgur.com...

Field Resonance Propulsion as described by Holt would explain how some UFOs may operate over interstellar distances. The propulsion enables a sort of teleportation, enabling one to traverse great distances in a short period of time. System would involve interaction between two separate energy systems: light (laser] and gravitation, according to Gallimore. Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center, Houston, Texas: NASA, Aug. 1979. 10 p. (NASA-TM-80961; JSC-16073) Paper presented at the AIAA/SAE/ASME Joint Propulsion Conference, 15th, Las Vegas, Nevada, June 18-20, 1979.

Note the similarity to the diagram on Page 7 to the description of the Kenneth Arnold UFO:




Diagram of Field Resonance spacecraft
i.imgur.com...


Kenneth Arnold's UFO



Also of note is that Alan C. Holt is linked to Douglas Torr who along with Ning Li tried to replicate Russian physicist Eugene Podkletnov's gravity shielding experiments which Podkletnov conducted at the University of Tampere, Finland

www.wired.com...
www.thelivingmoon.com...

Torr worked at NASA Johnson Center in Houston on work related to Field Propulsion including an experiment using particle accelerators in space on the shuttle Columbia on the STS-9 mission:
science.ksc.nasa.gov...

NASA Photo ID: S83-45180 File Name: 10061656.jpg
Film Type: 35mm BW Date Taken: 12/02/83
Title: STS-9/Spacelab 1 mission control center activity
Description:
Nabuki Kawashima (left) and Susumu Sasaki of the space experimentation with
particle accelerators (SEPAC) team monitor the status of that experiment's
instrumentation onboard the Spacelab module in the Space shuttle Columbia.
The two are at consoles in the payload operations control center (POCC) on
the second floor of JSC's mission control center (45180); Robert Basedow,
right, and Douglas Torr monitor experiments mounted in the open Columbia
cargo bay's aft end pallet. The two are plotting real time measurements
(45181).
Subject terms:
CONSOLES
FLIGHT CONTROL
GROUND BASED CONTROL
INTEGRATED MISSION CONTROL CENTER
MISSION OPERATIONS
PERSONNEL

Description of STS-9's mission: "Over the course of the mission, seventy-two scientific experiments were carried out, spanning the fields of atmospheric and plasma physics, astronomy, solar physics, material sciences, technology, life sciences and Earth observations. The Spacelab effort went so well that the mission was extended an additional day to 10 days, making it the longest-duration shuttle flight at that time."

So what connects that mission to Alan C. Holt?

Well, Alan C. Holt, Eric W. Davis (from Robert Bigelow's NIDS) and Hal Putoff published another paper on manufacturing materials in space for breakthrough propulsion physics:

"AIAA-99-2143 Space Testing of Electromagnetically Sensitive Materials for Breakthrough Propulsion Physics"
Alan C. Holt, Senior Member, NASA Johnson Space Center, Houston, TX - Eric W. Davis, Ph.D. National Institute for Discovery Science, Las Vegas, NV - Hal Puthoff, Ph.D. Institute for Advanced Studies, Austin, TX"

www.earthtech.org...

What does this have to do with Bob Lazar?

Bob Lazar stated the materials in the ET craft he examined could only be produced in space so the above research looks as though it was investigating how to do just that with an eye towards breakthrough propulsion physics.

Douglas Torr was part of NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program. Torr and Holt are linked in two key ways:

Douglas Torr from NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program monitored a space mission at mission control devoted in part to material sciences. In 1999 Alan C Holt who wrote the 1979 Field Propulsion paper wrote the other one on Space Testing Electromagnetically Sensitive materials for Breakthrough Propulsion Physics.

1. Torr was at Houston during Holts time there and Holt wrote a paper in 1999 for Torr's program
2. Torr monitored an experiment in 1983 at mission control devoted to the work in the 1999 paper

Marc Millis who headed up NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program and runs an outfit called "Tau Zero" regularly visits Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and was referred to in this paper:

"AFIT/GA/ENY/12-M06 -Gravitational Lens Deep Space Probe Design:" Berkley R. Davis, B.S. Second Lieutenant, USAF - Approved: Timothy Lawrence, Col, USAF (Chairman) - Carl Hartsfield, Lt Col, USAF (Member) - Marc G. Millis (Member)

www.dtic.mil...‎
Image files of excerpts of the above document in case it is offline:






Also as mentioned earlier, Alan C. Holt was active in NICAP/MUFON back in the late 70s/early 80s:
www.slideshare.net...
www.slideshare.net...
www.anomalies.net...
vixra.org...
goo.gl...

Great post btw Jade


Points:

First off, I never bought the Bill Cooper, Phil Schneider alien underground spook story, the result of the Bennowitz scam—the fringe in UFO lore.

So maybe Bill Moore did the UFO community a favor by revealing this a hoax, if it is a hoax?

He was around the mj12 also, though I personally believe Stanton Friedman is an honest guy and that MJ12 is probably legit, Was this the payoff Moore got for his work on Bennowitz?

Reading this, Project Beta does convince the reader that Bennowitz was out of it.
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

So the story goes he was too mentally ill to convince him that he was delusional so they had to add to his delusion so much as to make him crazier?
I guess that’s the GOP health care plan!

Last point

WHERE ARE ALL THESE SUPER DUPER GOVERNMENT CRAFTS THAT THEY ARE CLAIMING HAVE BEEN HIDING BEHIND THE UFO CRAZE?

Are they the drones killing children in the middle east

The GUT
Where did you come from, Felix? Glad you are here!

Thanks! Well, I've been mostly lurking. Recently some discussions fired up my interest again.

Yeah, Starfire was at least a piece of the puzzle, but there's more laser stuff and exotic propulsion aspects. Maybe even "invisibility." A look at the map and UFO lore demonstrates that that whole area of the West is smack full of secret labs/bases, cutting-edge technology, and ubiquitous strangeness.

Yeah, based on the descriptions of what Bennewitz and others were seeing out there, I don't think it was just lasers either. If they were researching and experimenting with optical camouflage back then I wonder how advanced the technology is now. And all of this was just on one base.

There's another fellow mentioned in Greg Valdez' 'Dulce Base' that remains un-named but seems to be identifiable and probably needs to be to shed a little more light. Anyone familiar with that aspect/person?

I haven't read Greg's book yet but I have it. I'll look into that when I have the chance.

FelixB

The GUT
Where did you come from, Felix? Glad you are here!

Thanks! Well, I've been mostly lurking. Recently some discussions fired up my interest again.

Yeah, Starfire was at least a piece of the puzzle, but there's more laser stuff and exotic propulsion aspects. Maybe even "invisibility." A look at the map and UFO lore demonstrates that that whole area of the West is smack full of secret labs/bases, cutting-edge technology, and ubiquitous strangeness.

Yeah, based on the descriptions of what Bennewitz and others were seeing out there, I don't think it was just lasers either. If they were researching and experimenting with optical camouflage back then I wonder how advanced the technology is now. And all of this was just on one base.

There's another fellow mentioned in Greg Valdez' 'Dulce Base' that remains un-named but seems to be identifiable and probably needs to be to shed a little more light. Anyone familiar with that aspect/person?

I haven't read Greg's book yet but I have it. I'll look into that when I have the chance.

'Yehuldi lights' (sp?).

Bloody hell, Started to watch it last night and got too late. Saved for today and, POW! The vid is gone!!

The GUT

JadeStar
@TheGUT: Can you send me a U2U with the info you have on Hal Putoff being involved in the Serpo story? I am doing some research that his name has come up in, independent of the Serpo story and I had no idea he was involved in that.

I'm willing to share what I have with you privately.

Will do. There are, in my estimation, some very important details and documentation surrounding the SERPO allegations that seem to have escaped most researchers. For various understandable reasons some of these materials cannot be posted on ATS...and without them it's much harder to bring some of the finer points of this discussion into full context. Hal Puthoff's role being one of them. It creates a "hands tied" situation to what I consider a significant degree when shedding sufficient light on these particular issues/players and motives.

I mention that here because I'm hoping to get some of our better "diggers" to peruse this little-known and rather "buried" info.

Btw, you're growing on me JadeStar. You are a great addition here at ATS I've come to see.

Thanks! Having dug into your threads this means a lot to me coming from you. As you read, I'm here because of the Sturrock Report's recommendations. Before I joined ATS I began wondering if anyone else had perhaps come to the same conclusions as the panel Sturrock convened prior to Sturrock et al.

To my surprise there seemed to be several "working groups" or "pairs" of respected scientists with people associated with the UFO field. Then I ran head into the military and from that, the intelligence community.

Then I read George Knapp was going to do a Q&A on ATS and decided to dive in and join. Thanks for the welcome and I look forward to helping dig.

reply to post by JadeStar
The connection that leads Alan C. Holt may be John C. Schuessler. Besides both working together at NASA's Johnson Space Center, they also formed Project VISIT (Vehicle Internal Systems Investigative Team). When Schuessler later bargained with Robt. Bigelow, both brokering deals with MUFON and becoming an advisor for NIDS, Al Holt was there too.

Sounds like a cabal, but in truth it may not be anything sinister. There are only a thimble full of technically adept people that have been studying UFOs and some of them formed relationships that have lasted for decades.

JadeStar
@TheGUT: Can you send me a U2U with the info you have on Hal Putoff being involved in the Serpo story? I am doing some research that his name has come up in, independent of the Serpo story and I had no idea he was involved in that.

I'm sure TheGut will sort you out with links to relevant information/emails, but in the interests of anyone else seeking to follow along then I'll just mention that a Google search on, say, (Puthoff Serpo "Team of Five") should lead you quite quickly to material about Puthoff's involvement in the Serpo saga. In particular, I'd suggest reading the material on the Reality Uncovered website and on Shwanna Connolly's serpo.info website.

Frankly, I'm not sure that clear conclusions can be drawn from that material about the nature of Hal Puthoff's involvement. Still, the material is quite amusing for various reasons.

In terms of more general discussions about Hal Puthoff, the table at the link below includes page references to discussion of him in 14 books about UFOs and remote viewing:
www.isaackoi.com...

(By the way TheGut, I hope to have some more Aviary related material for you soon).

CardDown
reply to post by JadeStar

 

The connection that leads Alan C. Holt may be John C. Schuessler. Besides both working together at NASA's Johnson Space Center, they also formed Project VISIT (Vehicle Internal Systems Investigative Team). When Schuessler later bargained with Robt. Bigelow, both brokering deals with MUFON and becoming an advisor for NIDS, Al Holt was there too.

Sounds like a cabal, but in truth it may not be anything sinister. There are only a thimble full of technically adept people that have been studying UFOs and some of them formed relationships that have lasted for decades.

Maybe or maybe not "sinister," but certainly worthy of further research and consideration. Bigelow has turned his NIDS venture into a "plus" rather than the "minus" that Joe Firmage experienced traipsing in ufology/phenomenology. How so?

Is it as simple as a shared interest in UFOs? The "connections" mentioned here are only tip o' the iceberg and involve scientists with some impressive security clearances. New Age fringsters...or scientists that have some clues we're not generally privy to?

Follow the "weird science" guys has become my motto. Look at what they're looking at. IsaacKoi recently and eloquently bemoaned the obvious decline of ufology. Following the professional and personal interests of cutting-edge gubmint scientists who also have an affection for ufology just might provide some breakthrough clues.

1ofthe9
Re: GUT, JadeStar, CardDown: You guys might want to check out the Keel collections that were released recently. There is a bunch of interesting data in there relating to EM, medical effects, and the weird liminal experiences around the silent contactee/abductions.

Can you point me in the direction of "the Keel collections that were released recently"? I'm intrigued.