Mirage Men is out.

reply to post by JadeStar


I'd be wary about downloading torrents, there's been fakes posted since before the film was even finished.

vbstrvct
They convinced Bennewitz by appealing to his patriotism, and telling him he was on to something and his work was important. He believed it, and ended up, unknowingly, spreading disinformation. I think they employ those tactics on their own people as well.

I wonder if that's what happened to Doty when he talks about the debriefing film he was shown (crashed debris and aliens). Or was he lying about the whole thing?

Also, if the disinfo campaign against Bennewitz was a result of him getting too close to secret projects at the base, then what the heck was Serpo about? Is Doty still in some way working for OSI, or does he now just enjoy the UFO topic and messing with people?

Jaellma
reply to post by IsaacKoi

 

It would have probably come top of a list of the most thought provoking UFO books I'd read in the year or two before that book.

So what are some of the most thought provoking UFO books you have read in recent times? If we had to exclude the Dolan series and Kean, what remaining books are credible enough of worthy mention?

"The Facade" by Dr. Mike Heiser, a man who knows every ancient language one needs to know and who also proved that Zac Sitchins was wrong in his findings about the Anunnaki which blows the door off the whole ancient alien concept. As far as them being from another planet and not the biblical Watchers and Nephilim. It is a good read and shows what his ideas are regarding the whole UFO E.T. flap is, so check it all out.

www.sitchiniswrong.com...

www.michaelsheiser.com...

I just watched it, pretty interesting. Shows a whole other side to UFOlogy. And to be honest, I'm not sure what I think about it all. Thanks for sharing though, I wouldn't have known it was released otherwise.

freelance_zenarchist
I wonder if that's what happened to Doty when he talks about the debriefing film he was shown (crashed debris and aliens). Or was he lying about the whole thing?

I had those thoughts exactly. Of course we will never know for sure if Doty made that whole debriefing story up, but my suspicion is that the debriefing really happened, but it was disinformation. I suspect this is actually standard practice.

I think if there is indeed someone within government that knows the truth, whatever it may be, I believe they considered it to be so sensitive that, not only very select few have been exposed to it, but, as the Churchill quote goes, it must be protected by a bodyguard of lies. And from a strategic point of view it makes sense.

In case your agents turn or go rogue, for example, they will only be spreading disinformation, and they will do so believing it to be the truth, after all it was told to them by high ranking officials in official functions (an official debriefing).

Additionally if your agents come across sensitive information or incidents relating to UFOs during the course of their duties, they aren't as tempted to press it much further on their own because, as far as they know, they were already told the truth.

And if you eventually need an agent to actually know more you can always bring him in to the loop whenever you want.

Also, if the disinfo campaign against Bennewitz was a result of him getting too close to secret projects at the base, then what the heck was Serpo about? Is Doty still in some way working for OSI, or does he now just enjoy the UFO topic and messing with people?

In the book, Mark Pilkington puts forward a theory, among others, that it could have been an attempt at smoking out someone who was on Victor Martinez's list. A lot of ex-military and intelligence people were on that list. It's an entirely a possible scenario.

I think Doty always enjoyed messing with people, and the UFO topic was simply one he realized he could have a huge impact with relatively little effort. In fact, in the book, and during the documentary, he stressed that point many times; how easy it was to fool Paul and others, and people still believe the stuff he created and/or spread, or debate it, 30+ years after the fact.

I doubt we'll ever have answers to these questions. But in my experience, when dealing with the intelligence business, there's almost never just one goal or reason. So it wouldn't surprise me if the answer to those all questions was "yes."

Auricom
I just watched it, pretty interesting. Shows a whole other side to UFOlogy. And to be honest, I'm not sure what I think about it all. Thanks for sharing though, I wouldn't have known it was released otherwise.

Its a side which needs to be shown more. I suspect a lot of what people invested into UFOs and take for granted has been based on stuff such as what is presented here.

One of the best UFO documentaries I've seen in a long time.

reply to post by JadeStar

I want to apologize for my responses the other day. My frustration with the direction some members were taking the conversation, and with some being obtuse, made me respond to you in a rude manner. It was unacceptable. I apologize.

vbstrvct
reply to post by JadeStar

 

I want to apologize for my responses the other day. My frustration with the direction some members were taking the conversation, and with some being obtuse, made me respond to you in a rude manner. It was unacceptable. I apologize.

Apology accepted.

The amazing thing for me is that we already know that the UFO subject has been used as disinformation by at least one intelligence agency (the CIA) to cover U-2 flights in the 50s. And we know about the whole Kirtland AFB/Paul Bennewitz/Project BETA thing. And John Ford's Long Island "UFO Crash" thing when he was nosing around another US government facility, the Brookhaven National Laboratory.

There's a clear pattern emerging.

Why don't people today think similar things are going on with regards to places like Area 51 (plant a UFO story ie: Lazar) to cover top secret aircraft research or Dugway proving ground (Skinwalker Ranch isn't that far away)?

The people invested in the UFOs as Aliens belief tend to look at all these events as evidence of a coverup of aliens and UFO technology.

I see the opposite, a use of aliens and UFOs to discredit those who get to close to sensitive, classified, yet 100% earthly projects.

Points:

The problem here is the usual human capacity to narrow thinking.

One reality doesn’t cancel out another necessarily.

The Gov can be doing multiple # of things: covering up UFO alien facts AND using it to cover up their own high tech toys.

One actually can complement the other.

When and if they use people like Lazar they can depend on a number of psychological ramifications that may serve any # of possibilities…nothing is ever conclusive in this field because it is so novel.

In the history of UFO alien phenomenon the GOV may have altered their modus-operandi to various methods of response.

When the CIA breathes it’s misinformation. So you can’t count them!

We don’t know conclusively one way or another what is exactly going on...there are many spokes in this wheel.

But we have enough overall general lore that convinces a multitude of serious people, from gov and civilians, that there is a legitimate alien UFO phenomenon.

With the powers of gov always having their often grimy hands in everything, one would expect them to put DECEPTION in the game.

And of course the often hysterical, juvenile, acts of ordinary human frailty comes into play: publicity seekers, thrill mongers, after money, liars, the whole spectrum of human BS.

So on this subject one has to separate the wheat from the chaff, and that isn’t easily done.

In this world the search for truth isn’t easy

Last point:
People who want scientific certainty better get some popcorn!

I'm with Willtell on that. Because UFOs have been used as a cover for secret or advanced projects doesn't mean there isn't something genuine to the phenomenon. Unfortunately it's very difficult, if at all possible at this point, to discern the signal from the noise.

In fact it's even conceivable that whoever was (or still is) faking UFO sightings/reports/events has just as much knowledge as we do about the real phenomenon. I get reminded of the X-Files episode where Air Force pilots dressed in alien suits faking abductions are abducted by aliens. I always liked that even just as a metaphor.

I think it's quite obvious Lazar was part of a disinformation operation, what's not so obvious is if he was a knowingly participant, although I lean towards the view that he was.

JadeStar
I see the opposite, a use of aliens and UFOs to discredit those who get to close to sensitive, classified, yet 100% earthly projects.

Willtell
And of course the often hysterical, juvenile, acts of ordinary human frailty comes into play: publicity seekers, thrill mongers, after money, liars, the whole spectrum of human BS.

I'm just bored and watching that Stealthy Sky.
I may have to download that UTorrent, because I
won't pay to see Mirage Men after this publicity stunt!

JadeStar

vbstrvct
reply to post by JadeStar

 

I want to apologize for my responses the other day. My frustration with the direction some members were taking the conversation, and with some being obtuse, made me respond to you in a rude manner. It was unacceptable. I apologize.

Apology accepted.

The amazing thing for me is that we already know that the UFO subject has been used as disinformation by at least one intelligence agency (the CIA) to cover U-2 flights in the 50s. And we know about the whole Kirtland AFB/Paul Bennewitz/Project BETA thing. And John Ford's Long Island "UFO Crash" thing when he was nosing around another US government facility, the Brookhaven National Laboratory.

There's a clear pattern emerging.

Why don't people today think similar things are going on with regards to places like Area 51 (plant a UFO story ie: Lazar) to cover top secret aircraft research or Dugway proving ground (Skinwalker Ranch isn't that far away)?

The people invested in the UFOs as Aliens belief tend to look at all these events as evidence of a coverup of aliens and UFO technology.

I see the opposite, a use of aliens and UFOs to discredit those who get to close to sensitive, classified, yet 100% earthly projects.

edit on 3-1-2014 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

Good point. However, I'm inclined to err on the side of "high strangeness" when it comes to Skinwalker Ranch. Is Dugway in the Unitah Basin? There does seem to be some weird underlying geomagnetic anomaly to the region that has been of attention to those in the know since the 1970's. Chances are, that if Dugway is in the Basin, that most of the work has been done there.

Also I'll back up Patriotsrevenge's on the Facade. I've never read Christian fiction before, and a scifi novel that incorporates the themes of the Collins Elite stuff makes for a really interesting read. I'll also recommend the two recent collections of John Keel that can be found on Amazon. There is a LOT of data there waiting to be looked at by interested folks. Much EM related stuff, and interesting information on how disinformation could have been propagated.

freelance_zenarchist
Also, if the disinfo campaign against Bennewitz was a result of him getting too close to secret projects at the base, then what the heck was Serpo about? Is Doty still in some way working for OSI, or does he now just enjoy the UFO topic and messing with people?

Memes. The 'community' doubles as the Nevada Test Site for the psychological warfare people when it comes to experimenting with memes and their propagation. Heck, Kit Green (Hi!) is here for a reason...and it ain't just to listen in on our speculation. Suppose that the 'core story' that Vallee and Kit worked out actually was an attempt at interfacing with the 'control system' of the ET-UFO meme...a kind of side-channel attack aimed at subverting the emerging belief system. We know from Vallee's journals that he suggested some kind of approach similar to this to Kit Green... We need to get Vallee and Green on here to talk. Only then can we get to the bottom of this.

BurbGirl378

JadeStar
I see the opposite, a use of aliens and UFOs to discredit those who get to close to sensitive, classified, yet 100% earthly projects.

Willtell
And of course the often hysterical, juvenile, acts of ordinary human frailty comes into play: publicity seekers, thrill mongers, after money, liars, the whole spectrum of human BS.

I'm just bored and watching that Stealthy Sky.
I may have to download that UTorrent, because I
won't pay to see Mirage Men after this publicity stunt!

I can assure you that this isn't a publicity stunt. I have not received any kind of benefit from posting at ATS, and god knows I wouldn't mind it.

reply to post by 1ofthe9


I watched it as well. I don't think it confirms or denies the existence of UFO's but rather adds another layer of (dis) information. The problem is that there has been so much BS that if you haven't seen a UFO personally and confirmed it was a UFO, there really is no one you can trust to tell you the truth. Everyone has an agenda selling books, lectures, conferences, etc. chasing the almighty buck.

Cheers - Dave

Again, I'n left thinking, "Oh joy, another totally ethnocentric view of the UFO phenomenon, shot through with a thick slice of of "Good Ole USA" propaganda.

American developments in rocket technology since the early 1960s? Zero, nada, none at all, the only serious change in rocket technology was something they were given by the Russians in the late 60s with regards to increasing the efficiency of the engines.

Check this out... Barnes Wallis project ...recognise it? oh yes, the ultra top secret shhh no-one must know we protect it all with armed guards with the authority to shoot to kill project.... Even though, in reality, it's been public knowledge for 60 years A project that lacked the right engines till Rolls Royce came up with the RB545 engine which can "scoop up" air from the atmosphere as part of it's fuel. Blown me down, that's not secret either.... An Aurora by any other name would be the HOTOL

What we do have is, a stealth fighter that's actually a sub sonic bomber and only lasted just over a decade in useful military service and a couple of one offs that cost billions and are, in the end, plain old aircraft built from exotic materials they conned the Russians out of. Which is the chief and probably sole reason they were top secret, as they were lying to the Russians about what they were using the Titanium etc for.

Chobham armour?...nope that's British..... So lets look at it another way. Billions upon billions of collars over a period of 70 years spent on what? Well, someone made a huge fortune for not a hell of a lot of return haven;t they? So, given the relative paucity of product from these "black projects" just maybe the UFO phenomenon provides a hugely convenient way to keep on milking that cash cow, the American tax payer.

Just maybe they don't want you to know the truth about all those black projects because, the truth is, in reality they haven;t actually made a whole lot of progress? They know little or nothing more about what UFOs are and where they come from, this last 70 years and they haven;t really built anything that revolutionary either, despite the billions spent. Do you think they might want to cover that up under a plethora of bovine waste ? I suspect that might well be closer to the real answer than many would give credit for, or feel comfortable accepting it as the "truth".

Al the airframes trotted out in documentaries and used to back the whole "secret ops" argument up, were pictured in every "Boys Bumper Book of Flight", contemporary to their development.

Think on this, 40 years ago, one could cross he Atlantic in a supersonic jet Airliner, in the second decade of the 21s century, you can't. Does the phrase "billion dollar con job" begin to look ever more apt?

FireMoon
Again, I'n left thinking, "Oh joy, another totally ethnocentric view of the UFO phenomenon, shot through with a thick slice of of "Good Ole USA" propaganda.

American developments in rocket technology since the early 1960s? Zero, nada, none at all, the only serious change in rocket technology was something they were given by the Russians in the late 60s with regards to increasing the efficiency of the engines.

Check this out... Barnes Wallis project ...recognise it? oh yes, the ultra top secret shhh no-one must know we protect it all with armed guards with the authority to shoot to kill project.... Even though, in reality, it's been public knowledge for 60 years A project that lacked the right engines till Rolls Royce came up with the RB545 engine which can "scoop up" air from the atmosphere as part of it's fuel. Blown me down, that's not secret either.... An Aurora by any other name would be the HOTOL

What we do have is, a stealth fighter that's actually a sub sonic bomber and only lasted just over a decade in useful military service and a couple of one offs that cost billions and are, in the end, plain old aircraft built from exotic materials they conned the Russians out of. Which is the chief and probably sole reason they were top secret, as they were lying to the Russians about what they were using the Titanium etc for.

Chobham armour?...nope that's British..... So lets look at it another way. Billions upon billions of collars over a period of 70 years spent on what? Well, someone made a huge fortune for not a hell of a lot of return haven;t they? So, given the relative paucity of product from these "black projects" just maybe the UFO phenomenon provides a hugely convenient way to keep on milking that cash cow, the American tax payer.

Just maybe they don't want you to know the truth about all those black projects because, the truth is, in reality they haven;t actually made a whole lot of progress? They know little or nothing more about what UFOs are and where they come from, this last 70 years and they haven;t really built anything that revolutionary either, despite the billions spent. Do you think they might want to cover that up under a plethora of bovine waste ? I suspect that might well be closer to the real answer than many would give credit for, or feel comfortable accepting it as the "truth".

Al the airframes trotted out in documentaries and used to back the whole "secret ops" argument up, were pictured in every "Boys Bumper Book of Flight", contemporary to their development.

Think on this, 40 years ago, one could cross he Atlantic in a supersonic jet Airliner, in the second decade of the 21s century, you can't. Does the phrase "billion dollar con job" begin to look ever more apt?

edit on 3-1-2014 by FireMoon because: (no reason given)

HOTOL was a paper project. Also your timeline of rocket technology doesn't take into account the SSME, the X-33 aerospike work...

reply to post by 1ofthe9


HOTOL was not a paper only project and the reason I know that is one of those rare occasions where I truly have to say, "Sorry, from a source I can't disclose" however, the fact that, I live in an area with 1000s of Rolls Royce employees should give you a clue. The HOTOL design is basically, that which Richard Branson is working on at this moment.

As for rocket technology, they have known for several decades now it's a dead end technology, that's literally, going nowhere, in reality, relatively slowly. Where we have advanced leap and bounds is miniaturisation and control systems via computer technology, allowing us to the wring the last ounce out of outdated engine systems.

FireMoon
reply to post by 1ofthe9

 

HOTOL was not a paper only project and the reason I know that is one of those rare occasions where I truly have to say, "Sorry, from a source I can't disclose" however, the fact that, I live in an area with 1000s of Rolls Royce employees should give you a clue. The HOTOL design is basically, that which Richard Branson is working on at this moment.

As for rocket technology, they have known for several decades now it's a dead end technology, that's literally, going nowhere, in reality, relatively slowly. Where we have advanced leap and bounds is miniaturisation and control systems via computer technology, allowing us to the wring the last ounce out of outdated engine systems.

Branson is working on expanding Burt Rutan's SS1 design. I think you have him confused with Alan Bond.

New working link anywhere, guys?

Gracias, second line.