Four things I can't get past, and neither should you

Originally posted by jiggerj
2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

OK JJ please explain to me the Cambrian explosion of total diversity of new life forms from no prior biological information where did all these new life forms come from where did all the new cellular information for the new life forms come from? They did not come from evolution where did they come from?

Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.

It's the title of this that bugs me. "Neither should you..."

Believers constantly get bashed and spoken ill of because they "force" their beliefs on others... and here, you're saying we should all believe what you believe, as implied in the title. That's not really fair, is it?

1 - How do you know what miracles have done? You haven't been around to see every miracle out there.

2 - Like a previous poster said, something cannot come from nothing. The universe is at least proof of a higher power, physical or not, that we could scarcely understand.

3 - Well, if you ever talk to a Messianic Jew, you will learn that there's actually some odd six hundred original commandments. The simple "ten" are the simplified version manifested by the Catholic church, which I'm not a hundred percent "eye to eye" with either. This does not disprove the existence of a higher power.

4 - Again, as another poster said, how would you know? Who are you to say that?



Not trying to come off offensive here... I just get a little annoyed with the sport of "believer-bashing." Its another fad that seems to be going around, like "America-bashing." Just annoys me.

reply to post by jiggerj


I agree with the 4 they make common sense.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Would you dare to read this?
www.truthcontest.com...
It might help you understand the bible a bit.

edit on 9-8-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

The life: The living truth is not in words, written or spoken, as the mind truth is. The living truth is realized only when the mind is not in the present with you. “The life” is the present without the mind. There are two types of truth: truth you know, and truth you experience. The mind truth is the opposite of living or real truth.

Sorry. I got this far and knew it was just going to be pages and pages of the same mindless, meaningless blather. People want so badly to break the word 'truth' into a multitude of definitions, definitions that fit their own personal views. This is not truth; it called opinion. Truth cannot be argued against. Truth cannot be an untruth to somebody else. Truth cannot be assumed - a thing is either verifiable or it isn't. If it isn't verifiable then it's just a theory.

reply to post by FlyersFan

St. Attalus (CE 627) reattached a severed thumb using spit. St. Francis of Paula (CE 1416-1507) grew two eyes and a mouth on a baby born without them. The "Miracle of Calanda" which supposedly took place in Calanda, Spain in CE 1640 when a gangrenous leg was amputated and then it miraculously grew back through prayer.

Sorry, FF. I was hoping I didn't need to go into detail on what I meant by No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back. The miracles you posted come from unverifiable sources. What I meant was that in this day and age we can see hours and hours of film footage of the laying on of hands to miraculously cure what can't be seen by the naked eye. We can watch how people have their teeth and fillings 'miraculously' turned into gold. We can witness precious gems and pretty baubles mysteriously appear in certain religious gatherings. In this age of intense scrutiny under the lens of a movie camera, no one has ever miraculously grown a lost arm or leg.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by jiggerj

 

What is the point in bothering to have this "discussion" then? You aren't willing to accept any answers we could provide to any of your points so your thread is not really a "discussion". Just the same self serving mumbo jumbo you usually post. This is a one sided argument and when we do try to answer, you are unwilling to listen.

That being said, i'm not going to bother wasting anymore time on you. You do not want to learn, so there is no point in trying to teach you anything.

Good day!

edit on 9-8-2013 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

Hmmm, I could've said this about you.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

St. Attalus (CE 627) reattached a severed thumb using spit. St. Francis of Paula (CE 1416-1507) grew two eyes and a mouth on a baby born without them. The "Miracle of Calanda" which supposedly took place in Calanda, Spain in CE 1640 when a gangrenous leg was amputated and then it miraculously grew back through prayer.

Sorry, FF. I was hoping I didn't need to go into detail on what I meant by No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back. The miracles you posted come from unverifiable sources. What I meant was that in this day and age we can see hours and hours of film footage of the laying on of hands to miraculously cure what can't be seen by the naked eye. We can watch how people have their teeth and fillings 'miraculously' turned into gold. We can witness precious gems and pretty baubles mysteriously appear in certain religious gatherings. In this age of intense scrutiny under the lens of a movie camera, no one has ever miraculously grown a lost arm or leg.

There is actually a pretty logical reason as to why the Christian god wouldn't perform miracles that are overtly supernatural. Think about it. The whole premise of that religion is "faith". The whole point of faith is believing without verifiable proof. If the Christian god said "poof, there's your arm back!", then you wouldn't need faith as you would pretty much have your proof.

I'm not saying that it's a great system but I can see how that would work. Their god only performs unobtrusive and subtle miracles in order to keep his existence questionable in the eyes of secular observers.

Originally posted by GodIsRelative

Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.

I'll address just the last of your four points, because it's the one I see most often and has the least credibility.

Just tell me how, in God's name, would you know? Have you been to this hypothetical world where God was never invented? There's not been a time in all of human history where some people did not worship something. Correlation does not imply causality. The existence of this or any religion is not responsible for the state of the world any more than capitalism is responsible for human greed.

I agree with you...i mean to the best of our knowledge has there ever been a time when man (hominids) didn't believe in a greater Being or a God as they would refer to it? And if this world is in worse shape, it's due to the decisions of its inhabitants and their free-will, God-given to do good, make harmonic peaceful decisions to help one and other....if people decide to kill each other, a tragedy, or if they decide to build homes near active volcanoes and it erupts and kills people, just two examples of humans making their 'free-will' decisions putting themselves in harms way.

On #2 God and the Universe...ok, look, nobody knows the answer to that question..how the Universe happened (theories yes, but nobody knows). And if someone wants to believe in Intelligent Design as an alternative view, I'm fine with that....because I just don't know, but....It's all pretty amazing...and we have just reached the whiteboard and started to scribble some ideas....compare that with the Earth being around for about 4.8 billion years and the Universe around 14 billion years....i'm afraid we've have only begun taking the first steps to kindergaten to begin to understand....IMHO!

reply to post by GeoThom

Do you not find it at least a bit interesting that the Bible has predicted the shape of things to come, and it did so at some period spanning at least 2000 years ago, and began doing so somewhere around 6500 years ago. For the most part, it has been pretty accurate. No other belief has accomplished this. No other belief has accomplished this.

If you look really hard at human nature you begin to see a pattern of destructive tendencies. Destructive tendencies that play over and over with each new generation. I can predict with absolute certainty that there will be war in the next hundred years, that governments will fall, that disease and pestilence will threaten parts of the world. I can predict that great men will be killed as evil men take control. The predictions in the bible are no more than a study in understanding human nature.

reply to post by jiggerj

I got this far and knew it was just going to be pages and pages of the same mindless, meaningless blather. People want so badly to break the word 'truth' into a multitude of definitions, definitions that fit their own personal views. This is not truth; it called opinion.

This exact thought could be said for your OP.

That article is no more truthful than your OP.

Again, not trying to offend here, just pointing out the elephant...

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Would you dare to read this?
www.truthcontest.com...
It might help you understand the bible a bit.

edit on 9-8-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

The life: The living truth is not in words, written or spoken, as the mind truth is. The living truth is realized only when the mind is not in the present with you. “The life” is the present without the mind. There are two types of truth: truth you know, and truth you experience. The mind truth is the opposite of living or real truth.

Sorry. I got this far and knew it was just going to be pages and pages of the same mindless, meaningless blather. People want so badly to break the word 'truth' into a multitude of definitions, definitions that fit their own personal views. This is not truth; it called opinion. Truth cannot be argued against. Truth cannot be an untruth to somebody else. Truth cannot be assumed - a thing is either verifiable or it isn't. If it isn't verifiable then it's just a theory.

Is this moment just a theory?
Life is alive now and if one speaks of past or future happenings it has to be spoken now and heard now.
Life is not living any other time but presently.

Can you see or hear the past or future? Or does all seeing and hearing always happen presently? Real life is made of experiencing.

have faith

Originally posted by guitarplayer

Originally posted by jiggerj
2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

OK JJ please explain to me the Cambrian explosion of total diversity of new life forms from no prior biological information where did all these new life forms come from where did all the new cellular information for the new life forms come from? They did not come from evolution where did they come from?

My answer is I don't know Your answer is: An all-knowing, all-powerful, invisible being whispered a magical incantation and POOF!

reply to post by jiggerj


Can You prove that the Sun is unconscious ? .

reply to post by XxNightAngelusxX

Believers constantly get bashed and spoken ill of because they "force" their beliefs on others... and here, you're saying we should all believe what you believe, as implied in the title [Four things I can't get past, and neither should you]. That's not really fair, is it?

I'm not implying that at all. What I'm saying is that people are so ready to swallow the easy stuff in a system of belief while completely and utterly glossing over the glaring flaws and inconsistencies.

I'm saying if miracles have supposedly been happening for thousands of years, and if miracles are supposedly happening today, then where is the ONE miracle that is beyond question? Where is the one-armed man, well-documented and filmed with only one arm, and then recorded when his arm miraculously grows back? Just ONE healed amputee and the belief in miracles can never be questioned or doubted again. Until this happens I will not ever buy into miracles. Why would you or anyone else?

The universe is at least proof of a higher power, physical or not, that we could scarcely understand.

See, this is the glossing over of a major inconsistency. How can the universe be proof of a higher power that we scarcely understand? "Proof" means that we understand something. "Scarcely understand" means we DON'T understand it. lol It can't be both ways. Might as well say, "Well, I don't know how the universe came into being, so I'm just going to say an unknowable, undefinable god did it and leave it at that."

3 - Well, if you ever talk to a Messianic Jew, you will learn that there's actually some odd six hundred original commandments. The simple "ten" are the simplified version manifested by the Catholic church, which I'm not a hundred percent "eye to eye" with either. This does not disprove the existence of a higher power.

All commandments and all words of supposed wisdom in the bible are no greater than the minds of mediocre men, proven by the wholly unwise and ignorant words that can also be found in the bible (gays go to hell, do not worry about food and clothing, a world flood, dead saints roaming the city...).

4 - Again, as another poster said, how would you know? Who are you to say that? (4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.)

No atheist would fly a plane into a building. No atheist would kill in the name of a god. No atheist would riot over a cartoon. No atheist would tell Africans that it's a sin to wear condoms...

Originally posted by kimsie
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Can You prove that the Sun is unconscious ? .

Not a valid question. Can you prove that chocolate doesn't hate vanilla? That rocks don't talk to each other?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by jiggerj

 

1. I agree with this point, but it still doesn't prove miracles don't exist. I'd say that life itself is a miracle in itself.

2. I think the universe is evidence of some sort of higher force. Something cannot come from nothing.

3. I'm not sure what your point is with this one. The ten commandments are only a list of things that are ingrained in our psyche from birth.

4. I'm pretty sure we would have been a lot better off without the invention of gods. I think the animal kingdom is a perfect example of this.

edit on 8-8-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

#2 Seems to me like the chicken & the egg theory.
Something cannot come from nothing.
Therefore where did God come from ?

Originally posted by bluesman1955



Something cannot come from nothing.
Therefore where did God come from ?

That depends on how you look at it, you have to ask can a material universe be created by a non material entity, without any understanding of the non material existence where this material world might have sprung from, its impossible to say. But it may be possible. Just the fact that the universe is here, proves it either came from somewhere or has always been here.

reply to post by jiggerj

I'm not implying that at all. What I'm saying is that people are so ready to swallow the easy stuff in a system of belief while completely and utterly glossing over the glaring flaws and inconsistencies.

I can agree with this, but at the same time I'd like to point out that not ALL believers "swallow the easy stuff." Some people believe that life is simply just, while others, like me, take everything with a grain of salt (and a bit TOO much thought, an almost maddening amount) and ponder on everything before incorporating it into a belief system.

I'm saying if miracles have supposedly been happening for thousands of years, and if miracles are supposedly happening today, then where is the ONE miracle that is beyond question? Where is the one-armed man, well-documented and filmed with only one arm, and then recorded when his arm miraculously grows back? Just ONE healed amputee and the belief in miracles can never be questioned or doubted again. Until this happens I will not ever buy into miracles. Why would you or anyone else?

I don't know why you're on this kick about people's limbs growing back, but we're not lizards. We don't work that way. That's not to say that miracles don't happen, but I don't believe a magic solution (like limbs growing back) is the definition of a miracle. The movie Bruce Almighty pretty well sums up what I believe a miracle to be.

No joke. Its an amazing movie.

I totally recommend it.

See, this is the glossing over of a major inconsistency. How can the universe be proof of a higher power that we scarcely understand? "Proof" means that we understand something. "Scarcely understand" means we DON'T understand it. lol It can't be both ways. Might as well say, "Well, I don't know how the universe came into being, so I'm just going to say an unknowable, undefinable god did it and leave it at that."

I didn't mean for that statement to be "God is the answer, period! End of story!"

But as a believer, AND as someone who's doubted and even spoken against God, by my personal experience, I believe there are too many coincidences and examples of justice for him to be only a fantasy. That's not to say there isn't injustice in the world, but only through pain can we find enlightenment. Even if I were to abandon my faith in God (which I won't), I would never stop believing this. Pain defines us as much as love, and it is needed. The existence of suffering does not disprove a higher power.

I meant "scarcely understand" as in, we could vaguely imagine the science and complicity behind the creation of the universe, No matter who or what God is. But the manifestation of such a magnificent event spawning from nowhere seems too random and unlikely. Whatever the higher power is, it is.

All commandments and all words of supposed wisdom in the bible are no greater than the minds of mediocre men, proven by the wholly unwise and ignorant words that can also be found in the bible (gays go to hell, do not worry about food and clothing, a world flood, dead saints roaming the city...).

Say what you will about the Bible... to me, the Bible is very "hit and miss." It was edited and translated from a language/languages that are NOTHING like our language, and its full of mistranslations.

Translators are under economic constraints: if they translate some verses as they actually appear in the original Hebrew and Greek, then long held prejudices would be threatened and many potential readers might reject the translation. Some pastors have favorite passages that appear to condemn Wiccans, other Neo-pagans and homosexuals. If a translation appeared in which those verses no longer condemned Witches or homosexuals, it is unlikely that those clergy would buy it or recommend it to their flock.

See full article here

While I believe its all important to find God, the Bible is written by people. Hit-and-miss.

No atheist would fly a plane into a building. No atheist would kill in the name of a god. No atheist would riot over a cartoon. No atheist would tell Africans that it's a sin to wear condoms...

HA! You haven't met half of my friends.

Atheists in my group ridicule and harass me because of my beliefs. That's an understatement. I can't write everything they say here, I'd get banned. But Atheists are not the poor wittle good guys. I can give you as many examples as you like, just give the command.

Factions (Like Christianity and Atheism) will always conflict with each other, because they're different.

The hell with factions. If you want to find God, its a one-man path.

reply to post by jiggerj

I'm saying if miracles have supposedly been happening for thousands of years, and if miracles are supposedly happening today, then where is the ONE miracle that is beyond question?

Open your "eyes" they're all around you every day. The big things were reserved for the jews. Gentiles didn't require huge miracles to believe. We still don't.

Where is the one-armed man, well-documented and filmed with only one arm, and then recorded when his arm miraculously grows back? Just ONE healed amputee and the belief in miracles can never be questioned or doubted again. Until this happens I will not ever buy into miracles. Why would you or anyone else?

You refuse to accept and see the small ones, do you really think that the Lord is going to show you something bigger? You must think you are something special to think you deserve something so huge, the only thing you deserve is death, its the only thing we all deserve. You refuse to accept that he died for your sins and you expect him to show you a miracle? Lower your ego, and humble yourself to him, and maybe one day he'll open your eyes to what you fail to see. Right now, there isn't a shred of humility in your body, you have no right to expect anything of him.