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Four things I can't get past, and neither should you

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posted on Aug, 8 2013 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 
Oh JiggerJ- how did I not run across this sooner?

For someone who claims to hate the Abrahamic religions so much I do declare you bring them up more in conversation than even the most devout Southern Baptist pastor! There's no need to voice my opinion on the subject as we've haggled this out quite enough, but I still wanted to chime in to wish you a good time with what I've come to believe is one of your favorite past times. Go get 'em Tiger!




posted on Aug, 8 2013 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by GodIsRelative
Just tell me how, in God's name, would you know? Have you been to this hypothetical world where God was never invented? There's not been a time in all of human history where some people did not worship something. Correlation does not imply causality. The existence of this or any religion is not responsible for the state of the world any more than capitalism is responsible for human greed.


Baloney.

First thingo however, he can't possibly know what your god knows as it's akin to pondering what santa was thinking when he decided to kiss mommy underneath that mistletoe last night.

Religion is the mental chain that shackles all of the poor souls caught in it's trap, slowly suffocating them under the weight of it's oppressive, egotistical, arrogant yet pleasant enough in general, climate of reach.

It is the binder in the fruit loop cake. Everyone has a nut. The batter is better in biblical proportions.

Sure human greed, human nature, itself causes the problems in any society, it's why there are laws and prisons etc, or at least used to be. Before it became full of anyone who seems to have been born with a unique identity, and a willingness to express it.

But religion is the circus that comes to town that everyone goes to see, never to be seen again...








edit on 8-8-2013 by winofiend because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2013 @ 11:37 PM
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reply to post by winofiend
 


Interesting opinion.

However, for someone who claims religion is the chain on your mind, your door seems shut abnormally tight. But what do I know? I'm just some human. I can't say if religion is good or bad for mankind, only that it's there and there is no basis for comparison.



posted on Aug, 8 2013 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by GodIsRelative

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by jiggerj
 

4. I'm pretty sure we would have been a lot better off without the invention of a god. I think the animal kingdom is a perfect example of this.


Does that mean you think that we'd be better off without the ability to reason? You know, like the animal kingdom?


I think the animal kingdom has had ample time to mature it's reasoning to that which it can sense. Something we completely lack the ability to do, it seems. We've lost it. I wonder why.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by GodIsRelative
reply to post by winofiend
 


Interesting opinion.

However, for someone who claims religion is the chain on your mind, your door seems shut abnormally tight. But what do I know? I'm just some human. I can't say if religion is good or bad for mankind, only that it's there and there is no basis for comparison.


I've come from a religious side that sent me to strict christian schools until I was 12 or so, when I left. I stopped going to church about the same time, but that was due to embarrassing my mother as no one would shake my hand in mass. The old ladies might, but not the priest nor anyone masquerading as a good person. So I was wearing an iron maiden t-shirt and a checked shirt, there was not even a typical attempt to save my mortal soul.

I know it's a chain because I cannot see how the entirety of everything that screams something more than god, responds with people who cannot, or will not see how the chaos in everything around us means everything is finite. Chaos that doesn't care about us. So we are inevitably finite, also. And when we go, so does any concept of god. Yet the universe will go on with no point in space for humans to even exist, to worship him any more.

Unless you are really stretching the meaning of the word god to mean 'a non-entity but a unified self aware state of everything'.. or something.

Who knows how the clockwork of reality really works as we only perceive a slither of the machine as it's cogs turn making things pop in and out of our slither.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 12:32 AM
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reply to post by winofiend
 


This is getting a little off topic. All I said is that there's no rational basis for believing the world would be better off without religion. Maybe if we could look at another intelligent and rational species who developed without the concept of God, we could have an answer, but we can't so we don't.

I've heard all the horror stories of the religious zealots out there, and I strive to not be one of them. I am completely willing to view any perspective that might change my view of the nature of existence, but I surely don't go around telling other people what to believe. If you believe in God, great. If not, that's great too. Just don't tell me what I should believe, especially when I know that you don't know any more than I do.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 01:05 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 



1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

If limbs not miraculously growing back is a sign that God doesn't exist.... then our inability to grow limbs back is a sign that evolution isn't true. That argument makes zero sense.



2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

The same applies to people claiming that the size of our universe is a sign that life has evolved elsewhere.
Life on earth is not proof of life on a different planet in a solar system light years away.



3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

The native Americans already knew that killing is wrong. So does that automatically invalidate the official lawbook of the USA when it was first presented? I mean, why put it in a book of law, when the ancient Egyptians and Chinese already had those laws?



4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

I don't even know where to start....



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by winofiend
I've come from a religious side that sent me to strict christian schools until I was 12 or so, when I left. I stopped going to church about the same time, but that was due to embarrassing my mother as no one would shake my hand in mass. The old ladies might, but not the priest nor anyone masquerading as a good person. So I was wearing an iron maiden t-shirt and a checked shirt, there was not even a typical attempt to save my mortal soul.

Man I hate to hear that. We might not totally agree on this subject, but I find your posts are always worth reading and contemplating. I would've shook your hand then or now. Sounds like some of the ol' ladies "got it"---the difference between religion and spirituality that is. Those are the folk that impress me.


Who knows how the clockwork of reality really works as we only perceive a slither of the machine as it's cogs turn making things pop in and out of our slither.

Word.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 01:34 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.


1. Give it time...

www.youtube.com...

2. The universe isn't proof... exactly how it works just might be though...

3. True...

4. Perhaps during that time the wrong "god" might have been getting the attention?


edit on 9-8-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 03:53 AM
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reply to post by GodIsRelative
 





Just tell me how, in God's name, would you know? Have you been to this hypothetical world where God was never invented? There's not been a time in all of human history where some people did not worship something. Correlation does not imply causality. The existence of this or any religion is not responsible for the state of the world any more than capitalism is responsible for human greed.


If you google how many Muslims and Christians there are in the world you'll come up with about 2 billion of each. That's four billion just in those two religions. Well, where are these god-loving people? They're soldiers in the armies of the world. They're the politicians causing war, tyranny, corruption. They're the ones flying planes into buildings and are responsible for suicide bombings. They are rapists and murderers and arsonists. They treat their wives and daughters worse than dogs. And they all do these things while perfectly sure in their faith that they are doing some god's will.
edit on 8/9/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 03:59 AM
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Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by jiggerj
2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

Then I'll take the second, GodIsRelative. How silly that comparison is JJ. I know you can think better than that. The universe--and the concept behind intelligent design--are like finding matches and gasoline residue at the scene. They didn't get there by themselves, ahem.




This statement proves that you have the ability to reason. If there are no matches and gasoline, one can easily deduce that a forest fire could have been started by lightning - a very natural occurrence.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 05:24 AM
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Hey ya' jiggerj. Awesome fun subject thread.



Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

Information from here ... (warning ... the site has 'attitude')

take the case of St. Augustine (CE 354-430), for instance. An official of the city of Carthage had part of his leg removed when a sore turned gangrenous and the surgeon was preparing to cut off the rest of it to prevent the further spread of the infection when "St. Augustine prayed, and the leg was not only instantly healed, but even the amputated part was restored" (A Dictionary of Miracles).

Of course, that was only part of a leg that had been cut off. St. Anthony of Padua (CE 1195-1231)'s miracle left St. Augustine's in the dust:

A man in the confessional told St. Anthony of Padua that he had kicked his mother; whereupon the saint said to him sharply, "the foot that could kick one's mother ought to be cut off." The man on his return home actually cut off his foot. When St. Anthony was told thereof, he ordered the maimed man to be brought to him, and, making the sign of the cross on the maimed limb, the foot was restored to him (Ibid., quoting from The Lives of the Saints, Edward Kinesman, 1623).


St. Attalus (CE 627) reattached a severed thumb using spit.
St. Francis of Paula (CE 1416-1507) grew two eyes and a mouth on a baby born without them.
The "Miracle of Calanda" which supposedly took place in Calanda, Spain in CE 1640 when a gangrenous leg was amputated and then it miraculously grew back through prayer.

DIctionary of Miracles

One of my books here has St. Francis of Paola bringing his pet fish back to life .. after it had been eaten and nothing but the skeleton remained. Do scales and fins count for legs?


Why don't these miracles happen now? Look at the state of the world. Find me a soul like St. Francis of Paola or St. Augustine. I don't think it's possible.


2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

This is a fun question to ponder. 'Things' can't self create. The universe couldn't create itself. At some point, it had to be made. It couldn't make itself because itself didn't exist. It couldn't make something out of nothing on it's own. There had to be a higher power that works outside of the physical realities we have in order to make those physical realities. What that higher power is ... that's the question. Is it a thinking personality (God) or is it something natural?


3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

Agreed. My ATS Thread - 10 Commandments Doctrine of Men You might like this.


4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

That's the fault of humans. People are stupid.
That's also the fault of the creator. He really is playing out 'Lord of the Flies' in real life with us.
Just because people are idiots, that doesn't mean that there isn't a God.
That just means that God isn't what we think He is. And life isn't what we think it is.
People screwing up doesn't prove one way or the other if there is a God.

MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES .. which can not be proven scientifically or caught on video .... these tell me that God exists. I have had more than one close encounter with God and even one ("dead") saint. These came at times when I was not whooping it up in a charismatic way and not deep in prayer and not expecting anything. They were very real and twice they actually created physical changes so I know they weren't my imagination.

So yes, I believe there is a God. I more than believe it. I KNOW it. That's not faith ... that's just knowing. But at the same time, I believe that God isn't what we have been taught. God is someone ... yes a distinct 'personality' ... that no one religion on Earth has figured out.


edit on 8/9/2013 by FlyersFan because: spelling



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 06:29 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Would you dare to read this?
www.truthcontest.com...
It might help you understand the bible a bit.
edit on 9-8-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.


I completely agree.

godisimaginary.com...



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 08:43 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 



That's not faith ... that's just knowing.

No. That's faith. There is no way of knowing your personal experience was what you believe it was. Or that it wasn't your own mind. Your personal experience is the amount of evidence you are personally willing to accept as proof of a deity. But it is still faith, because there are other explanations for what you might have experienced. You have just made a choice to believe it a certain way. That said...

I'm not knocking personal experience. It's all we have in this life. It's what shapes and molds us.
I'm not knocking faith, either. Everyone on this planet lives by faith, whether they know it or not. Life itself, is a walk of faith. There's no getting around it.

BTW. I also KNEW god existed. Up until I knew he/she didn't.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by FlyersFan
 



That's not faith ... that's just knowing.

No. That's faith.

No. I know. Look at the definitions.

faith Noun
- Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
- Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

know·ing
Adjective - Showing or suggesting that one has knowledge or awareness that is secret or known to only a few people.
Noun - The state of being aware or informed.

I KNOW that there is a God based on proof - a 'close encounter'. (actually... more than one)
Others have FAITH that there is a God based on belief in religion & things other than proof.

I was given proof. So I no longer have faith. I have knowledge.

That knowledge may turn out to be false ... (I highly doubt it) ... but I can't say that I have 'faith'.
Because faith requires belief in something that you have no proof of.
I was personally given proof. (and no, not 'bible' proof, not' whoop it up in a revival' proof).
I mean real life changing, physical changing, LITERAL soul touching, personal proof.
So .. I have to say that 'I know'. I can't say that 'I have faith'. It doesn't fit.

edit on 8/9/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 08:59 AM
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my grandfather always said 'a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still'

where does that leave argument?

i love threads like this like i love looking at a trainwreck.....



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


What is the point in bothering to have this "discussion" then? You aren't willing to accept any answers we could provide to any of your points so your thread is not really a "discussion". Just the same self serving mumbo jumbo you usually post. This is a one sided argument and when we do try to answer, you are unwilling to listen.

That being said, i'm not going to bother wasting anymore time on you. You do not want to learn, so there is no point in trying to teach you anything.

Good day!
edit on 9-8-2013 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.



1. There have been miracles where the dead have been resuscitated (not just jesus) wiki

resurrections of individual dead people are found in the Hebrew Bible, such as Elijah and the widow's son at Zarephath: "Behold your son lives." (1 Kings 17:23); Elisha and the Shunammite woman: "Take up your son." (2 Kings 4:36) and contact with Elisha's bones reviving a dead man: "as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet." (2 Kings 13:21)


2. The existence of the universe begs the question of what is the origin of the ORIGINAL mass and energy?

3. Keep the Sabbath Holy? do not covet? how are those unenforceable laws that governs your innermost thoughts a common sense law?

4. Desert God? He's G-d in the Jungle and in the Ocean too. It's just a bigger spectacle when you can feed a few million people in desert for 40 years. than in a lush vegetated area



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


To play another's game, is to go up against a loaded deck.

1, No, I cannot say I have ever seen, nor heard of that happening.

2, Claiming that the evidence of the universe is proof there is no higher power holds just as much weight,
as claiming it is. When you think about it, believing in a big bang, is equally hard to believe. In the struggle to find the answer, mankind only has the power of imagination. As with all things, human imagination does have its own flaws.

3. The 10 commandments are only ten verses. Even the staunchest of non believers has to admit, there are plenty of other Good writings that hold equal value as direction on how to treat others. And, in all fairness, these writing are not limited to only Christianity.

4. This is probably the best one of all. Do you not find it at least a bit interesting that the Bible has predicted the shape of things to come, and it did so at some period spanning at least 2000 years ago, and began doing so somewhere around 6500 years ago. For the most part, it has been pretty accurate. No other belief has accomplished this.
Science has not been turned on its ear, by this, It is true that some scientists are beginning to take a closer look at it, based solely on events that were predicted. some example are, more earthquakes, stronger storms, the condition society has degraded to, the advent of one world totaltarian control, rumors of wars, leading up to a final last war.
Using only common sense reasoning, I feel that with the technology available today, the next global conflict does have the ability to surely be the last conflict, ever.

Now, I must add. I am a Christian, but I am not a religious person. I do believe in Jesus, the Christ.
In my studies, I have found that the only time Jesus, the Christ ever physically assaulted people, was when he came to the temple and found the money changers. This is the only time listed in the Bible that he actually did physical harm,(with his hands), to his supposed children. It is written that he did use a whip. I find a lesson here, and it is a lesson forgotten to most, especially by those in organized religion.
I can only wish, that he would visit congress...
I am sure that sounds like only more gibberish. I do not condemn you for the way that you feel.
We all have been given the ability to make a choice in everything we do, be it related to faith, on in any situation we might find ourselves in. It is the Right of Choice, by any individual. So it is not up to me to proselytize anyone. I do hope to be afforded the same respect from you.
What I have written here is for the purpose of debate.
I also must add, I am full of sin. I am unable to get out of bed and start a single day without making mistakes.
I would find it hard to cope with the human situation without some degree of faith.
And it is a truth, it would be hard for any of us to accomplish anything without faith in something. So the evidence of faith being a reality, is already among us all. Is there misguided faith? Of course there is.
We are not, any of us, infallible.
Do I believe in life after death? Yes. I do, and with many good reasons. But those reasons come from personal experiences, and they simply do not belong in a forum debate with those who did not live through them.
There is no hard evidence of those experiences that can be presented here by myself.
(key words being, personal experience).
Do I believe in prayer, Yes, and I might add, sometimes the answer to those prayers is a no.
This does not mean that the prayer went unanswered. It is evidence that I have my own troubles in dealing with an answer of no.

I have tried my best to answer the questions you have posed. I feel I have done so civilly, and with respect to you and the others.
Take Care, and I do hope that you find the answers you are looking for.



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