Four things I can't get past, and neither should you

Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

1. How do you know?
2. We can't be sure if it's proof or not, without being sure of how the universe came into existence.
3. The idea that they may be "common sense laws" surely makes it more likely that they would also be gods laws?
4. How do you know?

Originally posted by jiggerj

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.

That is quite a big claim without any supporting evidence . . .

It would have been more logical to have provided peer reviewed research to support your bold opinion.



You sure make a LOT of these threads and from what I gather you have no actual experience in the technical or scientific professional world while attempting to push your ideology of science.

You likely are experiencing feelings of insecurity because you do not understand the concept and can not accept its existence as a result.

You should really seek help.

-FBB

reply to post by XxNightAngelusxX

While I believe its all important to find God...

That's just it, if people are looking for a god, they will find it no matter how ridiculous the premises are that lead them to this conclusion. It is all important to find the truth; that way the ridiculous premises will be quickly discounted.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

You refuse to accept that he died for your sins

No, it is you who refuses to see the ridiculousness of some of your ramblings. No one can die that would force a god into doing something that he doesn't want to do. Death does not have power over a god. Your god could have forgiven sins without a ritualistic sacrifice (because he's supposed to be GOD!). Sacrifices are a man-made invention.

reply to post by jiggerj


Yep, I pretty much agree with you

When you look at the wars carried out today and throughout history that has devastated parts of this planet and will continue to do so all in the name of religion, its beyond belief.

common sense and a being a good person holds far more value to me than religion ever could.

S+F

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

You refuse to accept that he died for your sins

No, it is you who refuses to see the ridiculousness of some of your ramblings. No one can die that would force a god into doing something that he doesn't want to do. Death does not have power over a god. Your god could have forgiven sins without a ritualistic sacrifice (because he's supposed to be GOD!). Sacrifices are a man-made invention.

That pretty much sums it up for me too.

I would love to add more, but that pretty much covers my point of view on jesus.

reply to post by jiggerj


Your just being ignorant man i have witnessed many miracles and my grandfather was a healer who made people's limbs grow back on a regular basis

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

You refuse to accept that he died for your sins

No, it is you who refuses to see the ridiculousness of some of your ramblings. No one can die that would force a god into doing something that he doesn't want to do. Death does not have power over a god. Your god could have forgiven sins without a ritualistic sacrifice (because he's supposed to be GOD!). Sacrifices are a man-made invention.

I've always found it ridiculous to believe that Jesus was meant to be a sacrifice. The only way his sacrifice profited us was to add weight to his words, which I think, is more important anyway. I honestly believe that any benevolent God would forgive your sins without a sacrifice. All Jesus did was tell people to stop being hypocrites and that God's laws amounted to little more than "Love each other, ffs." If he had to die to get that message out, that's no more important than Gandhi's self-immolation. It got people to listen. It didn't give anyone automatic absolution, and if you think that just repeatedly telling your peers how much you believe in Jesus makes you a good person, then you completely missed the message. In my opinion, "Jesus died for your sins" is the absolute worst pitch you can employ when trying to share the gospel. Should say something like "God sent his own son to his death to teach us what forgiveness is and that we should forgive each other as he has forgiven us."

reply to post by jiggerj


1. What difference would there be if there was a miracle that spoke of regenerating limbs? Saul's eyesight is regained in the Bible, but I am not sure if that would be deemed an acceptable miracle in your eyes. What factors, to you, would need to be met to "prove" a miracle?

2. The universe may not be proof of God's existence...but neither is it proof of God's nonexistence. An empty candy bar wrapper isn't "proof" that a candy bar existed within the wrapper...but perhaps the wrapper is a clue into the matter at large.

3. That the ten commandments are common sense shows me that God (or whatever you believe conjured up these commandments) has common sense; whether that god be Chinese, Egyptian, or Abrahamic. I sure hope that an enlightened being has some common sense.

4. That this world is in worse shape is debatable. While things in the US are more difficult economically now than in past years...I know I would rather be living here now than ANYPLACE 6,000 years ago. Being able to go the bathroom in water that I don't have to drink or bathe in is quite a perk! Add the fact that I have NEVER worried about going hungry, nor that I have little fear in terms of being attacked by a stranger, and finally that I have never had to hide ANY of my thoughts or beliefs (thank you ATS!)...makes me think the world is quite a peach now compared to times past. Secondly, the Bible never states that the world was going to be a super-happy-fun-time. To the contrary...things were supposed to go down the toilet even WITH worshipping God.

Thoughts?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by benrl

 

Out of all the animals, you chose the one (other than humans) that has the best ability to reason? Dolphins are the smartest animal on the planet right behind humans.

It may not be 100% "peachy", but it's a hell of a lot more balanced and peaceful than human society. The Abrahamic god caused division the moment he chose the Israelites as his "chosen" ones. Same with any other religion that claims they are the only ones who go to heaven or wherever else.

edit on 8-8-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

You really need to go do some research on dolphins. They murder, torture and rape just like humans, actually probably worse because it would appear that this behavior is not considered bad form in dolphin society. They also engage in territorial disputes. Yes, they are intelligent. Yes they are self aware. Yes they can and do reason. They are very very much like us in all those respects, which perhaps explains why they have the same shortcomings.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli

Originally posted by jiggerj

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.

That is quite a big claim without any supporting evidence . . .

It would have been more logical to have provided peer reviewed research to support your bold opinion.



You sure make a LOT of these threads and from what I gather you have no actual experience in the technical or scientific professional world while attempting to push your ideology of science.

You likely are experiencing feelings of insecurity because you do not understand the concept and can not accept its existence as a result.

You should really seek help.

-FBB

I'll go easy on you because your arrogance suggests you are very young. First, attack a topic, not the member.

Secondly, let's say only two bad events of equal tragedy have occurred throughout all of human history.
1. One atheist lunatic sets off a bomb killing three thousand. Why? Because he's a lunatic.
2. Two Muslims fly planes into the Twin Towers, killing three thousand. Why, because they believe that Allah will reward them in heaven.

Now, if Allah had never been invented the terrorists would not have committed this heinous act. This makes the world fifty percent better without this god.

Now, if we take away all the gods, then we're talking about no Christian Crusades, no Muslim Crusades, no Spanish inquisition, the Middle East would be a hell of lot better off today.

We can't stop lunatics, but we can certainly do without gods.

reply to post by Ultrastud

Thoughts?

I wish there were a way to link a previous post to a new one. I have commented on your points elsewhere in this thread. I don't want to rewrite them, and I don't think we're allowed to copy and paste an old reply to a new one.

reply to post by jiggerj


I agree
And would like to add

coincidence are not divine interventions

Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.
2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.
3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.
4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

1. Only within the Lizard specie or worm can limbs or body parts lost regrow.
2. No one has knowledge of anything outside of this solar system, a universe or multiples of is conjecture and perhaps true, just not visible/viable to/in the 3rd dimension WE ARE NOT WORTHY.
3. The Ten commandments were written for the children of ignorant adults.
4. Any desert God (many claimed to have existed) could confabulate anything it wanted and would but in its irony of wrath deny the simple actual oasis to manifest for those in need (a ceasation of suffering).

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by GodIsRelative

 

Just tell me how, in God's name, would you know? Have you been to this hypothetical world where God was never invented? There's not been a time in all of human history where some people did not worship something. Correlation does not imply causality. The existence of this or any religion is not responsible for the state of the world any more than capitalism is responsible for human greed.

If you google how many Muslims and Christians there are in the world you'll come up with about 2 billion of each. That's four billion just in those two religions. Well, where are these god-loving people? They're soldiers in the armies of the world. They're the politicians causing war, tyranny, corruption. They're the ones flying planes into buildings and are responsible for suicide bombings. They are rapists and murderers and arsonists. They treat their wives and daughters worse than dogs. And they all do these things while perfectly sure in their faith that they are doing some god's will.

They keep having children, and this is fact; does not bode well for the future if they are teaching ideology not only similar in thoughtform (marchstep) but garanteed to be acted out in future generations against their peers.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Secondly, let's say only two bad events of equal tragedy have occurred throughout all of human history.
1. One atheist lunatic sets off a bomb killing three thousand. Why? Because he's a lunatic.
2. Two Muslims fly planes into the Twin Towers, killing three thousand. Why, because they believe that Allah will reward them in heaven.

Now, if Allah had never been invented the terrorists would not have committed this heinous act. This makes the world fifty percent better without this god.

Now, if we take away all the gods, then we're talking about no Christian Crusades, no Muslim Crusades, no Spanish inquisition, the Middle East would be a hell of lot better off today.

We can't stop lunatics, but we can certainly do without gods.

But on the converse, wouldn't getting rid of atheism get rid of Stalin and Mao and other atheistic murderers who are not lunatics? (And by lunatics I mean certifiably insane. Being a mass murderer does not make one insane.)
If you think about it, (organized/large scale) atheism hasn't had as long of a record as religion; I don't see it's record thus far as being particularly impressive.

Originally posted by smilesmcgee
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I agree
And would like to add

coincidence are not divine interventions

Because there is no such thing? All things are planned and executed by your life path, all things are meant to happen no accidents, no coincidence (prior knowledge) is in place and acting upon the present.

But on the converse, wouldn't getting rid of atheism get rid of Stalin and Mao and other atheistic murderers who are not lunatics? (And by lunatics I mean certifiably insane. Being a mass murderer does not make one insane.) If you think about it, (organized/large scale) atheism hasn't had as long of a record as religion; I don't see it's record thus far as being particularly impressive.

reply to post by StalkerSolent


Sadly, this is natural. We can't get away from tyranny, domination, oppression. and have to deal with it all the time. The acts caused by religion are not natural and can be done away with if humans came to the conclusion that there are no gods.

Originally posted by jiggerj
The acts caused by religion are not natural and can be done away with if humans came to the conclusion that there are no gods.

I think you are wrong here, the USSR had no god.... they murdered 61 million people, stalin taking credit for 41 million of those. Without gods, psychopathic narcissists attribute their crazy power trips to some other ideology.

Mankind does bad things regardless of gods. Gods are simply an easy scapegoat.

Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

I don't know what you mean by miracle but there are definitely animals who regrow limbs....