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Four things I can't get past, and neither should you

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posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


OMG hilarious! I wonder how Jigger'll reply to this one?




posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by GodIsRelative
Just tell me how, in God's name, would you know? Have you been to this hypothetical world where God was never invented? There's not been a time in all of human history where some people did not worship something. Correlation does not imply causality. The existence of this or any religion is not responsible for the state of the world any more than capitalism is responsible for human greed.


this is only a small sampling, but just this sampling is enough to make one think...

Without religion, the crusades would not have happened.

Without religion, there would be no islamic, christian, or any other kinds of religious extremists.

Without religion, the existing hatreds between people, because of religion would not exist.

Without religion, we could make scientific advances that we currently can't because of religiously motivated interference

Without religion, morons would not picket funerals with signs that say "god hates fags".

Without religion, we, i believe, would have far less children molested by people who were trusted to be above that sort of thing.


...that sounds like a much better world to me...
edit on 9-8-2013 by Daedalus because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.


How do you know?
Also, isn't bringing people back from the dead more impressive anyway?
(I'm assuming you are taking the stories at face value here.)



2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.


Claiming that the universe is proof of any particular God might be hard to do, but claiming that it requires a first mover is a different matter. It may not be proof (post-Hume, we can't prove our way out of a paper bag) but it's not a bad inference. I mean, currently science is speculating on the beginning of the universe, and how it came about, and religions are making claims with no outside evidence to back them up. I don't see proof for anything pertaining to the foundations of the universe in abundance anywhere, so knocking the first mover argument seems sorta pointless. It's logic, not science, and it's not a terribly bad bit of logic. (Zeno's paradoxes are worse
) If you've got a better explanation, I imagine ATS would like to hear it. But the truth is that there's only a few explanations, and each individual chooses what makes the most sense to them.



3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.


So maybe whoever wrote them had good insight into human nature? If you look later in the same book (the Bible, not the Torah) one of the writers basically uses your point to support Christianity. (See Romans 2:14) So I'd be careful about trying to disprove Christianity that way, if I were you. You might have better luck attacking Judaism, but I think their adherents could make the same point.



4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.


You know this how? This is pure speculation, and there's evidence that Christianity (I presume that's the particular religion you're referring to) contributed to the "rise" of civilization (if it truly is a rise.) In fact, Nietzsche blamed democracy on Christianity, and that's generally considered an improvement.
edit on 9-8-2013 by StalkerSolent because: No, not a smiley face!



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Well, maybe true about lost limbs, maybe not... but I'm praying/hoping for regrowth of two molars!

Dentists are darned expensive, and desert gods... not-so-much (depending on if one "tithes" to a megachurch, I guess...).
edit on 8/9/2013 by Baddogma because: churchy rip offs



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 03:09 PM
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While I agree with the points (though I would have articulated them differently myself, especially the point about the universe's existence not being proof of intelligent design,) the reality in my case is that I just don't care.

Yes, I said it. I don't care.


I believe in human compassion and human ethics. Those are ontologically real things in the sense that whatever social, societal, psychological, and physiological processes and systems give rise to them and their relevance to our happiness and survival are empirically evident.

But as to their meaning and importance? In the way we like to think of it subjectively as human beings? Absolutely no proof of that. Whatsoever. In fact, all the evidence I'm privy to suggests we live in a meaningless, purposeless universe and that our consciousness is just an emergent behavior, etc. etc.

So... I don't care what people believe. Because if you kiss your kids goodnight, you believe in something having meaning for which there's no proof by my standards. I do care if people's religious beliefs promote harm and destruction. And I oppose that, always. But the belief itself, no matter how seemingly irrational? Couldn't care less personally.

Just saying. Carry on. Peace.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.


Lizard limbs and tails grow back all the time. No miracle required.


4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.


6,000 years ago life was nasty, brutish, and short. Life expectancy was 28 years. In that sense Jesus died an old man. Infant mortality was about 65%. Medical care was magical. You could be executed for the most trifling offense with no trial. Sanitation did not exist. People died horrible deaths.

Nowadays "poor people" with EBT cards have large screen TVs.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 





1. I agree with this point, but it still doesn't prove miracles don't exist. I'd say that life itself is a miracle in itself.


No, no, no. Life is a mystery. Until we figure out exactly how life came to be we can't call it a miracle.




2. I think the universe is evidence of some sort of higher force. Something cannot come from nothing.

That's exactly right. Something cannot come from nothing. Therefore, the material that created the universe has always been there; especially because a state of absolute nothing could never have existed.




3. I'm not sure what your point is with this one. The ten commandments are only a list of things that are ingrained in our psyche from birth.


I have no idea what you mean about ingrained. My point goes to everything god and Jesus is quoted as saying in the bible. Nothing they are credited with is mind boggling. There is no wisdom imparted in the bible that mankind couldn't have thought up without the help of a god.




4. I'm pretty sure we would have been a lot better off without the invention of gods. I think the animal kingdom is a perfect example of this.


Jeez, I hope you're not being sarcastic, because the animal kingdom IS the perfect example.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


G,day mate. re your point 1.
I would like to suggest you research a gentleman called Smith Wigglesworth. no , not bigglesworth, wigglesworth a pom.
Mate, if you tell me that you have never heard of biggles another pom but of fiction fame, i will be worried. Books and a movie. books, now let me see if i remember. yep, they were made of paper and old blokes like me used to read um.

edit on 9-8-2013 by pronto because: explaining name



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by Daedalus
 


G,day mate. It sounds like you are jacked off with religion. Fair enough. But, i put it to you, for your consideration. that in many cases religion has nothing to do with/or in common with believing that GOD and JESUS are both fairdinkum and real blokes.
edit on 9-8-2013 by pronto because: it instead of i



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 05:08 PM
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First...I'm not at all religious and don't believe in a god in the classical sense. But...

1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

An no miracle has ever caused person's a . to explode. So...my sneakers keep tigers from attacking me. My proof is that I haven't been attacked by a tiger while wearing them.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

You are correct...but claiming the universe is proof of nothing is not accurate either. The universe was created over time. What one person may call god, another may explain is the powers that exist within the universe.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

Untrue. In some cultures today, the rules in the ten commandments are ignored entirely and they believe that is correct to do. So...what you call common sense depends on who you are and where you are.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Unprovable. The would and all that populate it could have been destroyed if god hadn't been invented. We just don't know.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 05:38 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 



1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

But limbs have been restored and sight given to the blind.

You'll just dismiss that though.



2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

The two examples don't go together. The purpose of the cosmological argument is, simply put, that if there is an object, in this case the universe, there must be a cause for it. Much like there had to be a cause for the forest fire, be it human or otherwise.

The cosmological argument puts forth that it makes more logical sense, given the appearance of design in the universe, that the universe has a creator instead of simply being.


3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

This would just be an example of what Paul says in his letter to the Romans (2:14-15a; ESV):


For when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, …



4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

That, of course, is not objective and is dependant on what measure you're judging against.
edit on 9/8/2013 by octotom because: Fixing tags



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.


I think it is interesting that you see these four points as "things to get passed". I see them as "things that can indeed be harmonized".

I'm functioning under the assumption that you are providing "proofs" as to why the God of the Bible is a myth, so my response will be based upon that.

To your first point, please explain what your definition of "miracle" is, as the advancements in modern technology that allow Doctors to provide functioning, prosthetic limbs to people today would have seemed pretty miraculous to people who live a hundred years ago. If you see the re-growth of a limb as the needed evidence of the miraculous, please quote for me, chapter and verse, the scripture that states "And I shall grant thee the power to cause the re-growth of limbs, and by this sign, they shall know that I am God". It's not there, but the Bible does teach that you will know the disciples of Christ because they "love one another".

To your second point (which has been well addressed by others in this thread), I don't disagree with it, per se. However, science has not provided a "better" explanation to this point in time,. As such, what you are attempting to use as "proof" is sort of a "non-proof", as there is no other conclusive, airtight explanation to offer in place of a Creator.

To your third point, there aren't "ten commandments" in the Bible (there are actually 613), and unless you're an Israelite, there were never part of a covenant that you had to adhere to. The 613 laws and ordinances that are listed throughout the first five books of the Bible (which comprise the Torah) were part of the covenant made between God and the Israelites, and Jesus said He came to fulfill them, and later, Paul taught the we are not under law anymore, but under grace, and that the law is no longer necessary for salvation. Are the ten that we see listed on the courthouse doors "common sense" types of laws? You bet. Does that disprove the existence of a deity? Not at all. In actuality, it helps support such an existence, as mankind has long had laws in place that work to the betterment of society. This would suggest that there is a reason behind why these laws keep showing up throughout human history is a multitude of diverse locations.

As to your fourth point, where to begin? If you cannot see that the world today is a better place than it was a hundred, two hundred, or a thousand years ago, then anything that I may post on the internet to the contrary isn't going to change your mind.

But let's say that the world today is indeed no better than it was 6,000 years ago. If that is indeed the case, then you must also assert that science, or human nature, or whatever it is you believe in at the end of the day, are also abject failures at making the world a better place. If we are no better off today, then everything else in human existence has had the same zero sum effect. I wholeheartedly disagree with such an assertion, but again...if you honestly feel that way, the written words of a total stranger submitted to the ether that is the internet are not going to change your mind.

Peace.
edit on 9-8-2013 by Thejaybird because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 06:58 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 




1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.


So God leaves man to create his own miracles plenty to see in the world we live in.




2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.


Saying 'God doesn't exist' is not proof of him not existing.




3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.


God only need ten so how many thousands of laws has mankind created that those ten don't already cover?




4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.


God didn't do that man did.

I can get past quite a bit, people are free to believe in the almighty by whatever they call him/her, and people are free to believe in the vast universe of nothingness.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by StalkerSolent


You know this how? This is pure speculation, and there's evidence that Christianity (I presume that's the particular religion you're referring to) contributed to the "rise" of civilization (if it truly is a rise.) In fact, Nietzsche blamed democracy on Christianity, and that's generally considered an improvement.
edit on 9-8-2013 by StalkerSolent because: No, not a smiley face!


There was no christianity in the indus valley, nor sumeria, nor egypt or babylon. You will find civilization predates jesus by a few thousand years. And democracy was a greek creation in the 5th century bc.
Democracy is mob rule, 2 wolves and a sheep voting for dinner, democracy has its problems.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 07:20 PM
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I fail to see any point in these kind of posts and topics - nothing useful comes from it.

The problem is not belief in God, nor is it belief in science - the problem is belief, period.

People pick out some information, and they chose to make it true - then they believe it - then they wrap their ego up with it, and put the belief into the 'Belief Trophy Cabinet' never to be examined again. Any information conflicting with the belief is 'nonsense', or needs to be 'interpreted' in a different way - ie bent and adjusted to suit.

Beliefs are unnecessary if you think you are a collection of beliefs, then you are missing out on an expanded consciousness.

I observe, and derive meaning from the information I observe - I don't have any truth, or facts and I don't think its possible to know anything about physical reality.

If I know anything, its that I exist, that I observe and that I can synthesize, extrapolate, interpolate, induce and deduce - apart form that, everything is unknown, but I have some information about it - and I am increasing my understanding of it.

People who rely on belief have borders on their reality - anything above or below the line doesn't exist, is not worth investigating and any information regarding it is rejected.

Without belief, there is no border to reality - all information can be received, analyzed and stored - without belief there are no boundaries to perception, it is infinite.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
1. No miracle has ever caused a lost limb to grow back.

2. Claiming that the universe is proof of a god is the same as claiming that a forest fire is proof of an arsonist. The universe in not proof.

3. The ten commandments are nothing more than common sense laws (Well, except for the ones that are self serving to a god) laws that were already in place in Egypt and China.

4. After 6,000 years of worshiping a desert god this world is in worse shape than if a god had never been invented.

Please don't attempt to offer other things, like saying, Yeah, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you can't address the four points posted then you'll just derail this thread.


Awl come on now Jigger you can come up with more than 4 I bet you got a crap bucket full of things that get your shortys in a twist. Don't hold back tell us what is really buging you that you can't get over.
edit on 9-8-2013 by guitarplayer because: none



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by GodIsRelative
Just tell me how, in God's name, would you know? Have you been to this hypothetical world where God was never invented? There's not been a time in all of human history where some people did not worship something. Correlation does not imply causality. The existence of this or any religion is not responsible for the state of the world any more than capitalism is responsible for human greed.


this is only a small sampling, but just this sampling is enough to make one think...

Without religion, the crusades would not have happened.

Without religion, there would be no islamic, christian, or any other kinds of religious extremists.

Without religion, the existing hatreds between people, because of religion would not exist.

Without religion, we could make scientific advances that we currently can't because of religiously motivated interference

Without religion, morons would not picket funerals with signs that say "god hates fags".

Without religion, we, i believe, would have far less children molested by people who were trusted to be above that sort of thing.


...that sounds like a much better world to me...
edit on 9-8-2013 by Daedalus because: (no reason given)


Without religion there would be no Sistine Chapel, and that goes for a lot of other great works of art as well.

Do not use child molestation as an argument against religion. That applies specifically to Catholics, and there is a lot more child exploitation going on in this world than just what you hear the Catholics are doing. I know this personally.

You would still have philosophical extremists. The greatest wars in history were started over politics, not religion.

As far as hatred between the different religious groups, this is a problem man creates by believing in something without understanding it. Christians and Muslims should be able to get along just fine and sort out their philosophical differences through discussions and debates just like everyone else. In fact, most do. I rarely meet hateful people of either religion.

Okay, so Christianity is responsible for the Crusades. I'll give you that. In fact, I'll also say they were mostly responsible for witch burning. But the Aztecs practiced human sacrifice, and our modern culture promotes class warfare and elitism. No philosophy is without its faults. Saying that the world would be better off without religion is still just as unfounded. Cultures have to grow, learn, and adapt. There is a reason that there are so many different sects of Christianity. It's because inevitably, you will have people telling you that their interpretation is the only right one, when in reality, they're missing important parts of the message.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 09:31 PM
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reply to post by Awen24
 





I don't necessarily see this being a problem. Miracles have brought people back from the dead (if the Bible is to be believed - that's another topic for another day though). Which would you rather have? Life, or a limb? Likewise, miracles are not a commonplace event - otherwise, they wouldn't BE miraculous... so this complaint seems a little petty considering what miracles HAVE occurred.


This statement is targeted at those that would believe in the miracles being claimed today. Like:
Gold Teeth: Jesus does it again!
Gigantic Gemstones from Heaven

So, god would heal those with poor teeth, turn those fillings into gold, and sprinkle jewels from heaven, yet no reports of a lost limb being healed. It's just wrong.
edit on 8/9/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by OneManArmy

Originally posted by StalkerSolent


You know this how? This is pure speculation, and there's evidence that Christianity (I presume that's the particular religion you're referring to) contributed to the "rise" of civilization (if it truly is a rise.) In fact, Nietzsche blamed democracy on Christianity, and that's generally considered an improvement.
edit on 9-8-2013 by StalkerSolent because: No, not a smiley face!


There was no christianity in the indus valley, nor sumeria, nor egypt or babylon. You will find civilization predates jesus by a few thousand years. And democracy was a greek creation in the 5th century bc.
Democracy is mob rule, 2 wolves and a sheep voting for dinner, democracy has its problems.


Oh, certainly! I simply meant that civilization's progress (if it is progress) since then is certainly affected by Christians. As far as democracy goes, the Greeks (may have) invented it, but they weren't the modern architects of it. Anyway, Nietzsche was more obsessed with the Christian spirit that he saw as allowing/promoting democracy.
Incidentally, I agree that democracy has serious flaws. But I sometimes get the feeling people think that our "progress" has made religions obsolete, when in fact (at least, in my opinion) many modern norms can be traced to religion.



posted on Aug, 9 2013 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by littled16
reply to post by jiggerj
 
Oh JiggerJ- how did I not run across this sooner?

For someone who claims to hate the Abrahamic religions so much I do declare you bring them up more in conversation than even the most devout Southern Baptist pastor! There's no need to voice my opinion on the subject as we've haggled this out quite enough, but I still wanted to chime in to wish you a good time with what I've come to believe is one of your favorite past times. Go get 'em Tiger!



There are book clubs where people enjoy coming together and either praise or criticize a book. That's what I'm doing here, and the bible (even as a work of fiction) has so many flaws that we could talk about it forever.



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