Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

reply to post by wildtimes


You're Welcome

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Islam: What The "World" Needs To Know - DEBUNKED!

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


First of all it was an an hour and a half.

Secondly, if you didn't watch the video...then you don't know what the video purports to be representing then, do you?

Thirdly, It's not my religion to defend!! So you defend what is being said!!

Fourthly, STFU means Shut the F### Up and then go back to my third point!!

Lastly, you can assume to know what is going on inside my head, but you would be wrong. How about not answering a question, with a question? That too much to ask, right? If it was my religion and somebody was bad mouthing it...I would take the time to watch the video and then discredit...point by point...what was being said. A fact that you and other Islamic Apologists wish to ignore!

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


As for slavery in Islam, it isn't exactly as monstrous as some people make it out to be.
Mohammad himself taught slave owners to free their slaves, as it was a virtuous deed. As a result of which, thousands of slaves were released during Mohammad's lifetime. Mohammad himself freed his slaves and according to some reports of his farewell speech...had this to say about slaves...

And your slaves! See that ye feed them with such food as ye eat yourselves; and clothe them with the stuff ye wear. And if they commit a fault which ye are not inclined to forgive, then sell them, for they are the servants of the Lord, and are not to be tormented

This can be said of any other culture that practiced slavery.... not even America.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


And you need to re-read the context:

"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." [Qur'an 4:24]

What do think "those (captives) whom your right hands possess" means? Are they maybe talking about slaves?

ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!!!

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Ahh....so it's ok to own slaves....so long as you follow the Koran...because hey, Mohammad did it...it has to be ok, right?

Thanks for clarifying that for all of us. You just validated the video!!!

reply to post by maddog3n8

First of all it was an an hour and a half.

Its half an hour longer than I thought. Woe is me!!

Secondly, if you didn't watch the video...then you don't know what the video purports to be representing then, do you?

Like I said, first demonstrate how that bunch of anti-Islamic people are better experts than actual practicing Muslims. Until then, I have no reason to watch that. Such videos are a dime a dozen. You seem to be easily impressed by slickly produced videos advertised as containing so called "expert" views on the matter. Good for you, I guess, but it doesn't apply to everybody.

wildtimes

have you heard this guy? he deplores christianity, but i want you to listen closely to what he says is going on. i think my theory i expounded on a couple pages ago, is right on.

reply to post by maddog3n8

Ahh....so it's ok to own slaves....so long as you follow the Koran...because hey, Mohammad did it...it has to be ok, right?

Thanks for clarifying that for all of us. You just validated the video!!!

Thats not what I said at all. You just demonstrated that you are having a hard time comprehending posts here.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


And help me out here...because I am just a stupid infidel:

And your slaves! See that ye feed them with such food as ye eat yourselves; and clothe them with the stuff ye wear. And if they commit a fault which ye are not inclined to forgive, then sell them, for they are the servants of the Lord, and are not to be tormented

How does that quote that you used promote the assertion by you that Mohammad freed his slaves? It seems like he was advocating that once they were slaves and they displeased you, sell them to someone else!!!

Originally posted by maddog3n8
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

And you need to re-read the context:

"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." [Qur'an 4:24]

Out of Context.

Let me finish the rest for YOU.

And all married women (are forbidden unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. 4:24

Better?

Does the Qur'an permit sex outside marriage with female slaves?

3 Does the Qur’an permit sex outside marriage with female slaves?



The question arises on the interpretation of the following two verses: 4:24 and 23:6. Again the problem arise as we take the verses in isolation i.e. without considreing other relevant verses. For example the usual interpretation accepting a positive response to the above question would immediately contradict the following verses: 4: 3, 25 and 24:32, 33. According to these verses sexual relations with any woman is only permitted through wedlock. Typical translations of verses 4:24 and 23:6 are as follows:



4:24 And (forbidden to you are) all married women other than those whom you rightfully posses. [....].



This verse coming after the enumeration of prohibited degrees of relationship in the previous verse i.e.(4:23) is meant to stress the prohibition of sexual relations with any woman other than one’s lawful wife. (see Asad verse 4:24 note 26). The verse does not say as to whether one can have sex without marriage with these women who are rightfully in their possession. Now looking at other verse:



23:6 Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hand possess, [.....].



Regardind this translation, apart from the contradiction already stated above, the other objection is as follows: I quote from note 3 in “The Message of the Qur’an”, by Muhammad Asad:



“.....Nor is this the only objection to the above mentioned interpretation. Since the Qur’an applies the term ‘believers’ to men and women alike, and since the term azwaj (spouses), too, denotes both male and female partners in marriage, there is no reason to attributing the phrase ma malakat aymanuhum the meaning of ‘their female slaves’; and since, on the other hand, it is out of the question that female and male slaves could have been referred to here, it is obvious that the phrase does not relate to slaves at all, but the same meaning as in 4:24 -- namely, ‘those whom they rightfully possess through wedlock’ (see note 26 on 4:24) -- with the significant difference that in the present context this expression relates to both husbands and wives, who ‘rightfully possess’ one another by virtue of marriage. On the basis of this interpretation, the particle aw which precedes this clause does not denote an alternative (‘or’) but is, rather, in the nature of explanatory amplification, more or less analogous to the phrase ‘in other words’ or ‘that is’, thus giving to the whole sentence the meaning. ‘.....save with their spouses -- that is, whom they rightfully possess [through wedlock]....’ etc”.



Thus Asad translates the verse 23:6 as: (not giving way to their desires) with any but their spouses -- that is, those whom they rightfully possess (through wedlock) -- for then, they are free of all blame.



If we now look at the verses 4:3, 25, and 24:32, 33, we see that sex with female slaves is only permitted through wedlock. The translations of these verses according to Asad are as follows:



4:3 And if you have reason to fear that you might not act equitably towards orphans, then marry from among (other women) such as are lawful to you 3 -- even two, or three, or four: but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then (only) one -- or (from among) those whom you rightfully posses.4 [.....].



4:25 And as for those of you who, owing to circumstances, are not in a position29 to marry free believing women, (let them marry) believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess.30 [......].



24:32 And (you ought to) marry the single from among you42 as well as such of male and female slaves as are fit (for marriage)43 [......]



24:33 [.....] And do not, in order to gain48 some of the fleeting [pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your (slave) maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage;49 [.......].



The application of these verses with (4:24) and (23:6) as well as the additional explanation as given by Asad of verse 23:6, as stated above, lead to the conclusion that the Qur’an does not permit sex outside marriage with female slaves or for that matter with anyone.



Note: The subscripts refer to additional notes in “The Message of the Qur’an” by Muhammad Asad.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


That assumes..my maladjusted friend...that I didn't look up the quotes from the Koran that they used. Not to put too fine a point on it....it also assumes that you know everything I do...which clearly is a very stupid comment.

Further, you are showing how you want to play "Wizard of Oz" (i.e. don't look at the person behind the curtain) mentality. When you start asserting some type of effort, then maybe I will take you half way seriously. Until then, you are a coward!!!

reply to post by mekhanics


I'm sorry, but how does that negate the phrase " what your right hand possesses"?

Edit:

Didn't see this part until I re-read:

24:33 [.....] And do not, in order to gain48 some of the fleeting [pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your (slave) maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage;49 [.......].

Your own context is talking about slaves!!!! End of discussion!! You don't even know what you posting!!!

reply to post by maddog3n8

How does that quote that you used promote the assertion by you that Mohammad freed his slaves?

That quote wasn't intended to substantiate the fact that Mohammad freed his slaves, but rather to showcase his views on how slaves were to be treated.... 1400 years ago, when it was being practiced in a desert culture.

As for freeing slaves....

The Islamic prophet Muhammad encouraged manumission of slaves, even if one had to purchase them first. On many occasions, Muhammad's companions, at his direction, freed slaves in abundance. Muhammad personally freed 63 slaves, and his wife Aisha freed 67. In total his household and friends freed 39,237 slaves. The most notable of Muhammad's slaves were: Safiyya bint Huyayy, whom he freed and married; Maria al-Qibtiyya, given to Muhammad by a Sassanid official, whom he freed and who may have become his wife;[42] Sirin, Maria's sister, whom he freed and married to the poet Hassan ibn Thabit and Zayd ibn Harithah, whom Muhammad freed and adopted as a son.

Yup... what a cruel slave driver Mohammad was. These are facts that the "experts" on anti-Islamic videos conveniently leave out.

Originally posted by maddog3n8
reply to post by mekhanics

 

I'm sorry, but how does that negate the phrase " what your right hand possesses"?

Read: Below

quran 4: 24-25


(24) (Forbidden to you also) are married women, except those whom you own. Such is the decree of Allah. All women other than these are lawful to you, provided you seek them with your wealth in modest conduct, not in fornication. Give them their dowry for the enjoyment you have had of them as a duty; but it shall be no offence for you to make any other agreement among yourselves after you have fulfilled your duty. Allah is Knowing, Wise.

(25) If any one of you cannot afford to marry free believing women, (let him marry) from among the owned believing women. Allah best knows your faith: you are all alike (in terms of religion). Marry them with the permission of their masters and give them their dowry in all justice, provided they are honorable and chaste and have not entertained other men. If after marriage they commit adultery, they shall suffer half the penalty inflicted upon free adulteresses. Such is the law for those of you who fear to commit sin: but if you abstain, it will be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


...
The verses referred here, are the last revealed verses in the series of orders regarding physical relation with possessed-women. The earlier revelations in this connection came in Makkah. It was common practice in Arabia to maintain sexual relations with slave-women. The practice, just like prohibition, was restricted in phases, instead of its abolition in one go . First, in Makkan-era, the married persons were directed to snap sexual relations with them.

“Who guard their modesty except with those joined to them in the marriage bond or the (captive) women in their possession. They are free from blame”. (23:5-6 and 70:29-30)

Mark the word “OR” in the above verse. ‘Wives or possessed-women’, (not ‘the wives and possessed women’) were the initial restrictions. Then a few years later, in Madinah, the final verdict came; “If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may marry (instead of resorting to free sex with) believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess. Moreover, Allah has full knowledge about your faith. You are one from another. Marry them with the leave of their owners and give them their Meh’rs according to what is reasonable... This (permission of marriage with captive-women) is for those among you who fear sin but it is better for you that you practice self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving. Most Merciful” (4:25)

For reasons, not being discussed here, Islam does not approve of marriage of free men with possessed-women. (by stating, ‘ you are one from another’, it has been made clear that all people are from one man and woman, and the reason of the above disapproval is not racial). However, if a person cannot afford to marry a girl from the free society, and he fears that he will not be able to practice restraint, and fears to commit sin, he is permitted to marry the possessed women. If Islam permitted sex with captive women, there was no need for the above elaboration.

Read more: what your right hand possesses

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I know you having a hard time keeping up with your circular logic but here is what you posted:

And your slaves! See that ye feed them with such food as ye eat yourselves; and clothe them with the stuff ye wear. And if they commit a fault which ye are not inclined to forgive, then sell them, for they are the servants of the Lord, and are not to be tormented

Tell we where I am confused in stating that he nowhere in this quote...that you gave me...does Mohammad say free your slaves? In point of fact...he states that if you don't like them....sell them off to some other moron!

reply to post by mekhanics


Your quote:

(24) (Forbidden to you also) are married women, except those whom you own.

How am I missing my point? Mohammad was for slavery!!

reply to post by maddog3n8

Further, you are showing how you want to play "Wizard of Oz" (i.e. don't look at the person behind the curtain) mentality. When you start asserting some type of effort, then maybe I will take you half way seriously. Until then, you are a coward!!!

No, I really want to know what makes those people in the video better "experts" on Islam than actual practicing Muslims. There's no reason as to why their take on Islam is more worthy of audience than an actual practicing Muslim. Until you can prove so, I'll have to dismiss them and their kind as a bunch of mad barking dogs.

My point being, anyone can post a slickly produced video with a title like "what the world needs to know about X"...containing biased opinions on the subject by self proclaimed "experts" who are simply expressing opposing views on the subject. It isn't necessarily truthful or correct.

reply to post by maddog3n8

Tell we where I am confused in stating that he nowhere in this quote...that you gave me...does Mohammad say free your slaves?

That particular quote simply showcases Mohammads views on how slaves were to be treated.... 1400 years ago, when it was being practiced in a desert culture.

But otherwise Mohammad did teach people to free his slaves and he himself practiced what he preached. Read my previous post here.

reply to post by mekhanics

Mark the word “OR” in the above verse. ‘Wives or possessed-women’, (not ‘the wives and possessed women’) were the initial restrictions. Then a few years later, in Madinah, the final verdict came; “If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may marry (instead of resorting to free sex with) believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess. Moreover, Allah has full knowledge about your faith. You are one from another. Marry them with the leave of their owners and give them their Meh’rs according to what is reasonable... This (permission of marriage with captive-women) is for those among you who fear sin but it is better for you that you practice self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving. Most Merciful” (4:25)

Contrary to what you might believe....I do know what "what your right-hand possesses"....it is reference that you don't touch an Arabic person w/your right hand as it is considered unclean....for this is the hand that they use to wipe themselves after using the toilet....so by inference...a slave is unclean and thus, regardless of their nationality or belief, can be touched w/the right hand...for it is not considered to be an insult.

Your text still promotes slavery!!!!

reply to post by maddog3n8


I gave you link to read further. Seriously, you had time to watch that fraudulent doco but don't have time to read and learn?

Lets get back to the original topic shall we?

Islam: What the West Needs to Know - DEBUNKED!