Department Of Homeland Security is NOT Stockpiling Ammo

Originally posted by netwarrior

Originally posted by URSOCLUELESS
reply to post by tide88

 

Perfect, another "Transparent" source. Did you have your Kool-aid today?

You beat me to it. Yes, Tide, please post a source for that tidbit about the environmental concerns. Last time I checked, my .40 S&W FMJ is completely encased in a copper jacket. That's only halfway correct, as RIFLE rounds have open bases...but so do the hollowpoint rifle rounds.

FMJ's are not encapsulated, JHP's are. Here is a link that discusses the topic.

JHP encased lead to limit exposure

Is that good enough? Maybe you should try looking for some of this info yourself. It is readily available.

reply to post by tide88


I don't have to look it up. I'll go get a box of FMJs and pull the bullet myself. I don't have to google anything.

Be right back.

Originally posted by netwarrior
reply to post by tide88

 

I don't have to look it up. I'll go get a box of FMJs and pull the bullet myself. I don't have to google anything.

Be right back.

Looks like the TSA requires their armed security officers to use JHP's and only JHP.

Authorized Ammunition:

9mm 124 grain, jacketed hollow point (JHP)
.357 Sig 125 grain JHP
.40 caliber 180 grain JHP
.45 caliber 185 grain JHP

TSA authorized ammunition for ASO's

Originally posted by netwarrior
reply to post by tide88

 

I don't have to look it up. I'll go get a box of FMJs and pull the bullet myself. I don't have to google anything.

Be right back.

Here is another link on the purchases.

Government and military procurement is a very complex topic; so complex, in fact that it’s sometimes hard to discern best value practices from actual waste, fraud, and abuse. However, there are practically no examples of nefarious acquisitions intended to be used for the subjugation of the American populace. These ammunition contracts and solicitations are no exception

DHS Ammo Purchases Should Not Worry You

Let me guess, Info Wars is more reliable?

reply to post by tide88

I believe the reason they are training with hollow-point bullets is for health and environmental concerns.

Now I have heard it all.

Hollow Points: Good for your health AND the environment.

I know exactly what they use because I prefer the same brand as well. I will pull one of those too just so you can see what they look like.

reply to post by tide88


Here is a WIKI to answer the question.. Know the OP likes WIKI

en.wikipedia.org...(firearms)

If we are going to talk bullets lets get a base line ONLY TMJ Total Metal Jacket safely and totally enclosesthe lead core of the bullet. ALL FMJ and HOLLOWPOINT ammo has lead exposed and is dangerous (in the long term) to use in a enclosed range. TMJ is currently authorized on enclosed ranges without proper ventilation.

I shoot a lot all the time so lets not throw bull.
ONLY TMJ is "lead Free" it's the way you swage it ;seemless totally enclosed

If DHS says their buying HP's for practice they are just flat lying regardless of the source.

Oh PLEASE...

It's hard to fathom how many DHS Butt Smoochers there are here.

That's right... they didn't buy it up JUST BECAUSE they say they didn't... yeah right.

The problem is that the "unexplained" shortage of ammo almost everywhere, doesn't match up with the liar claims.

So butt smoochers.. where's the ammo?

Originally posted by URSOCLUELESS
reply to post by tide88

 

Here is a WIKI to answer the question.. Know the OP likes WIKI

en.wikipedia.org...(firearms)

If we are going to talk bullets lets get a base line ONLY TMJ Total Metal Jacket safely and totally enclosesthe lead core of the bullet. ALL FMJ and HOLLOWPOINT ammo has lead exposed and is dangerous (in the long term) to use in a enclosed range. TMJ is currently authorized on enclosed ranges without proper ventilation.

I shoot a lot all the time so lets not throw bull.
ONLY TMJ is "lead Free" it's the way you swage it ;seemless totally enclosed

If DHS says their buying HP's for practice they are just flat lying regardless of the source.

Military Times Article

Government and military procurement is a very complex topic; so complex, in fact that it’s sometimes hard to discern best value practices from actual waste, fraud, and abuse. However, there are practically no examples of nefarious acquisitions intended to be used for the subjugation of the American populace. These ammunition contracts and solicitations are no exception.

Before we begin, it’s important to understand that an RFQ (request for quote) or solicitation is not a purchase. When Infowars says something like “the Department of Homeland Security is planning to buy a further 750 million rounds of ammo in addition to the 450 million rounds of hollow point bullets already purchased earlier this year,” or “Following controversy over its purchase of around 1.2 billion bullets in the last six months alone, the Department of Homeland Security has put out a new solicitation for over 200 million more rounds of ammunition,” the reader is led to assume, naturally, that DHS has actually purchased that amount of ammunition. That is simply not the case. A solicitation is the equivalent of a want-to-buy ad on Craigslist, writ large. It’s not an actual purchase.

So if DHS hasn’t actually bought 1.2 or 1.6 billion rounds in one year, then what have they bought, and what do they plan to buy? Well, a year ago they awarded an IDIQ contract for up to 450 million rounds of .40 S&W ammunition over the next 5 years. They plan to buy, over the next 5 years, 63 million rounds of a wide variety of ammunition ranging from 12 gauge birdshot to .38 special wadcutter to .30-06 FMJ ammo; there are even line items for .308 blanks.

An IDIQ, or indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity contract, means that DHS didn’t simply buy 450 million rounds of ammunition at one time. The contract is spread out over a 5 year period, and it’s an upper limit, meaning up-to-90 million rounds of .40 S&W each year from that up-to-450 million round award. DHS could, if they wished, buy 73 million rounds the first year, 84 million the second, and so on. It depends on their needs at the time.

There is, as mentioned above, an Infowars article which refers to a “750 million round purchase,” but the PDF linked in said article is a solicitation which only contains line items which add up to 63,256,000 rounds. Confused? Here’s what a DHS spokesperson had to say about that:

“One solicitation under Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) has a contract ceiling of UP TO 750 million rounds of training ammunition, a maximum quantity allowing FLETC flexibility over the next 5 years for training of over 90 federal agencies. A separate 5-year department-wide contract allows the purchase of UP TO 450 million rounds of duty ammunition for our law enforcement officers and agents. This contract is intended to be used by all DHS components, except the U.S. Coast Guard, who uses U.S. Department of Defense ammo contracts. This contract is part of the Department’s strategic sourcing efforts to combine multiple previous contracts in order to leverage the purchasing power of the entire Department to efficiently procure equipment and supplies at significantly lower costs.”. .........

Doubt you will read the rest of the article. It is pointless arguing back and forth. You are bringing nothing to the table here, I have provided source after source and you have not provided one. All you have done is criticized my sources. If you want to have a real discussion, how about providing me with something to back you claims? Otherwise, I am done here.

I'll grudgingly concede this one, not because OP is right, but because I can't find my bullet puller and my hands are too damn decrepit to do it with channel locks. Arthritis sucks, but at least i can still pull a trigger.



I'm still wondering what kind of magic FMJ rounds that have exposed bases. I've probably shot well over a million rounds of ammunition in my lifetime and i've never seen one, aside from copper jackets for DIY loading. That wikipedia article reads like a sales pitch.

Originally posted by netwarrior
I'll grudgingly concede this one, not because OP is right, but because I can't find my bullet puller and my hands are too damn decrepit to do it with channel locks. Arthritis sucks, but at least i can still pull a trigger.

I'm still wondering what kind of magic FMJ rounds that have exposed bases. I've probably shot well over a million rounds of ammunition in my lifetime and i've never seen one, aside from copper jackets for DIY loading. That wikipedia article reads like a sales pitch.

edit on 25-3-2013 by netwarrior because: (no reason given)

I dont know if this link is any better FMJ LEAD

FMJ ammo and lead slugs both introduce substantial amounts of airborne lead vapors (the absolute worst form) into the air. FMJ has exposed lead bases and the hot gases vaporize lead at the base of the bullet. How many of you have looked at the base of a fired lead or jacketed bullet? The granular and sometimes fractured appearance indicates gas cutting. Only TMJ (total metal jacket) or plated bullets eliminate lead vapors.

My explaination for the purchase of JHP and health concerns was only a theory of mine, I have no idea if that is the reason. It seems to me from the article in Military Times I linked on a few post above, the actual reason may be due to the requirement for the officers to train with the same bullets they carry in the field.

Of course my whole point of this thread was to show that DHS is not stockpiling ammunition and has no where near the 2 billion bullets info wars and other posters on here claim they have. I believe I have provided sufficient proof that those are just orders and are for the maximum amount, not necessarily the amount they will purchase. I also have provided links and the contracts that show these orders are over the next five years, not orders that are to be filled immediately or have already been filled.

The question you really should ask yourself is why do site such as info wars cherry pick their information from the same sources that I have linked. Why do they still claim the number is 2 billion when the contracts themselves prove that number is wrong. The worse part is, they are backing their claims with links to the same contracts that I have linked, the difference is they either are having a hard time comprehending it or they have another agenda, like making money of web advertising. Should make you question what their true agenda is.

reply to post by camaro68ss

how is Rand paul a nut job? enlighten me please?

They just like to call Republicans nutjobs and wackos, it makes them feel superior.

reply to post by tide88


You probably won't believe I read the article but who cares, First The Military Times is not associated with any branch of the military and is a for profit magazine, therefore their information is no better than infowars. Show me the requisition forms or shut the front door. You throw bull as if you have a cattle farm.
No one practices with hollow point ammo

www.fbo.gov...

This is THE type of ammo use for practice. "NON toxic and Fragmentable" NOT HOLLOW POINT, thats just smoke and mirrors.

Now post the Form showing the request for purchase of non tox and frag ammo for DHS so I can BELIEVE THE TRUTH
Or direct me to thepost if I missed it.

reply to post by tide88


He states the same thing you do, and HE doesn't use any sources either. "FMJ bullets have exposed lead bases."

They do NOT have exposed lead bases. The bullet is fully encapsulated by the copper jacket. They *may* have a 2 piece jacket to allow for filling but many times that jacket is intact on impact. Don't believe me? Fire a round of Winchester white box at a tree. Do a bit of probing and you'll see the base of the round.

Rifle rounds may/may not have an exposed base, but handgun rounds do not.

Your source reads like an opinion page and many of his assertions are in dire need of sources.

Originally posted by URSOCLUELESS
reply to post by tide88

 

You probably won't believe I read the article but who cares, First The Military Times is not associated with any branch of the military and is a for profit magazine, therefore their information is no better than infowars. Show me the requisition forms or shut the front door. You throw bull as if you have a cattle farm.
No one practices with hollow point ammo

www.fbo.gov...

This is THE type of ammo use for practice. "NON toxic and Fragmentable" NOT HOLLOW POINT, thats just smoke and mirrors.

<

Now post the Form showing the request for purchase of non tox and frag ammo for DHS so I can BELIEVE THE TRUTH
Or direct me to thepost if I missed it.

Many agencies require their officers train with the same type of ammo they are using in the field. Since most feds and police agencies use JHP, DHS would order that type of ammo since they are responsible for training 91 federal agencies plus state, local, tribal, and international law enforcement agencies.

I also said that was "maybe" the reason they ordered JHP, although now I see they actually train with them due to the requirement to train and practice with the same ammo they carry in the field.

reply to post by tide88


OKAY, Im breaking contact until you post something which refers to "training ammo" which it must to be solicited as well as acceptable malfunction rate and bid end and close or sole source etc.
All you have to do is post the info like I DID where it says TRAINING REQUIEMENTS.....has to have it.
Sure you got enough info now to report back to your bozos in charge.

Originally posted by netwarrior
reply to post by tide88

 

He states the same thing you do, and HE doesn't use any sources either. "FMJ bullets have exposed lead bases."

They do NOT have exposed lead bases. The bullet is fully encapsulated by the copper jacket. They *may* have a 2 piece jacket to allow for filling but many times that jacket is intact on impact. Don't believe me? Fire a round of Winchester white box at a tree. Do a bit of probing and you'll see the base of the round.

Rifle rounds may/may not have an exposed base, but handgun rounds do not.

Your source reads like an opinion page and many of his assertions are in dire need of sources.

Oh come on. FHJ have exposed lead bases, some are copper coated. Guess it all depends on the brand you use.

Here are some with and with out

Barnaul 94-gr FMJ

Manufacturer: Barnaul Machine Tool Plant JSC, Barnaul, Russia
Headstamp: 9 mm MAK
Cartridge Case: Lacquer-coated steel, berdan primed, non-corrosive
Bullet: 94.3-gr (1 measured), steel-jacketed copper-coated, concave exposed-lead base
Magnetic: Cartridge case and bullet jacket are magnetic


Sellier & Bellot 95-gr FMJ (24-round White Box) (10 rounds tested)

Manufacturer: Sellier & Bellot JSC, Vlašim, Czechoslovakia
Headstamp: 9 mmM S & B
Cartridge Case: Steel case, berdan primed, non-corrosive
Bullet: 93.5-gr (1 measured), steel-jacketed copper-coated with concave exposed-lead base
Magnetic: Cartridge case and bullet jacket are magnetic

Fiocchi 95-gr FMJ (20 rounds tested)

Manufacturer: Fiocchi Munizioni S.P.A., Lecco, Italy
Headstamp: G.F.L. 9 MAKAROV
Cartridge Case: Brass case, boxer primed, non-corrosive
Bullet: 94.5-gr (1 measured), copper (brass?)-coated, with concave exposed-lead base
Magnetic: No


Sellier & Bellot 95-gr FMJ (50-round green/red/white box) (10 rounds tested)

Manufacturer: Sellier & Bellot JSC, Vlašim, Czechoslovakia
Headstamp: 9 mmM S & B
Cartridge Case: Brass case, boxer primed, non-corrosive
Bullet: 93.7-gr (1 measured), copper-coated with concave exposed-lead base
Magnetic: No

Jing An 95-gr FMJ (10 rounds tested)

Manufacturer: Exported by Jing-An Equipment IMP/EXP, China
Headstamp: 71 93
Cartridge Case: Steel case, berdan primed, non(?)-corrosive
Bullet: 94.5-gr (1 measured), steel-jacketed copper-coated bullet with concave exposed-lead base
Magnetic: Cartridge case and bullet jacket are magnetic

LVE (Green Box) 95-gr FMJ (20 rounds tested)

Manufacturer: LVE (Low Voltage Equipment Plant), Novosibirsk, Russia
Headstamp: LVE 99 9x18Mak
Cartridge Case: Steel case, berdan primed, non-corrosive
Bullet: 92.2-gr (1 measured), steel-jacketed copper-coated with concave exposed-lead base
Magnetic: Cartridge case and bullet jacket are magnetic

here are a few, most FMJ have an exposed lead base. Check for yourself.

MOST FMJ BULLETS HAVE EXPOSED LEAD BASE

scroll to the bottom. Of course this really has nothing to do with the topic at hand, so this is the last I will post on the subject

reply to post by tide88

responsible for training 91 federal agencies

Has anyone bothered to find out just how many NOAA employees carry firearms in the discharge of their duties?
How about the Department of Agriculture?
I wonder if the Office of Cybersecurity and Communications carry firearms to shoot at the internet?

Here's an interesting name for a government agency: The Science & Technology Directorate.
Directorate.... Didn't the Soviets use that term for their government agencies back when they existed?

I wonder how many of them need to be trained to use firearms?

Originally posted by URSOCLUELESS
reply to post by tide88

 

OKAY, Im breaking contact until you post something which refers to "training ammo" which it must to be solicited as well as acceptable malfunction rate and bid end and close or sole source etc.
All you have to do is post the info like I DID where it says TRAINING REQUIEMENTS.....has to have it.
Sure you got enough info now to report back to your bozos in charge.

I am almost sorry I am going to post this since you bring absolutely nothing to this thread, but here you go. I will just post this link, even your favorite sources show the orders labeled CLTA. The stupidity here is amazing.

DHS Ordering Commercial Leaded TRAINING Ammo.

Originally posted by netwarrior
I'll grudgingly concede this one, not because OP is right, but because I can't find my bullet puller and my hands are too damn decrepit to do it with channel locks. Arthritis sucks, but at least i can still pull a trigger.

I'm still wondering what kind of magic FMJ rounds that have exposed bases. I've probably shot well over a million rounds of ammunition in my lifetime and i've never seen one, aside from copper jackets for DIY loading. That wikipedia article reads like a sales pitch.

edit on 25-3-2013 by netwarrior because: (no reason given)

Hey Brother, I am with you.

All this crazy discussion about lead in the bullets is just plain "poo poo pee pee" crap.

I cast my own from EFFECTIVE lead. May the cry babies really snivel over THAT.

I need to learn some of that Magic so I can deal with copper fouling instead of leading!