Department Of Homeland Security is NOT Stockpiling Ammo

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posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by TinkerHaus
Most people getting all worked up about these kind of things never actually look into it for themselves like the OP did. That is why I star and flag his thread and that is why I help him argue his point. He took the initiative, and while I'm not asking for anyone to publicly respond, I will wonder out loud how many of you actually looked as deeply into this issue as he did before proclaiming the sky is falling. Don't answer to me, just answer to yourselves.


I WILL answer you - directly. I did - in detail! And continue to do so each and every week! I don't just go by Requests for Proposals (RFPs) or Requests for Information (RFIs) as they don't tell even a tiny piece of the story. I trust the feet on the ground who work in procurement, warehousing, logistics etc... I understand how "blanket POs" work, "Continuing Req orders" and the myriad of other purchasing tricks used by government to hide purchases. I also understand how "Bundling" works when making unusual purchases - as is SOP for DHS since it houses various agencies like ICE, FEMA, TSA etc... It allows them to hide acquisitions across the enterprise.

The same applies when it comes to logistics and warehousing. This is a massive shell game where the field-level does not have enough of the information to piece together the puzzle and contributes to the "Deniability" factor - unless you advance to a high enough rank.

Now, take the known variables and piece them together. Couple them with other known facts about this administration and the picture starts to come into focus. I understand that cognitive dissonance prevents many people from reaching the logical conclusion, but that does NOT change the reality.




posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:01 PM
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And toward the OPs argument that the orders are to use the entire budget -

My brother recently was honorably discharged from the National Guard. Before he went into the NG he was active Army, and did two combat tours in Iraq.. Not one of those guys who went there in 2008 to sit in a tent, but someone who was there for the initial invasion and saw real combat.

When they do live fire exercises in the National Guard, they often end up with thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of rounds left over. At that point they all go out and just shoot. No direction, no scoring, no rating.. Just burning ammo. Why? Because if they fail to use it all then they cannot justify their budget the following fiscal year.

So the OPs argument is a valid one. Instead of coming back with your opinion, maybe it would serve you better to do some research and respond with verifiable fact.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by TinkerHaus
And toward the OPs argument that the orders are to use the entire budget -

My brother recently was honorably discharged from the National Guard. Before he went into the NG he was active Army, and did two combat tours in Iraq.. Not one of those guys who went there in 2008 to sit in a tent, but someone who was there for the initial invasion and saw real combat.

When they do live fire exercises in the National Guard, they often end up with thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of rounds left over. At that point they all go out and just shoot. No direction, no scoring, no rating.. Just burning ammo. Why? Because if they fail to use it all then they cannot justify their budget the following fiscal year.

So the OPs argument is a valid one. Instead of coming back with your opinion, maybe it would serve you better to do some research and respond with verifiable fact.


your debating on a the notion that this is a budgeted item. These purchases are outside the norm for budgets.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:04 PM
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reply to post by camaro68ss
 


I think we are all wasting our time and words, it is obvious to me at this point the op is the one with the closed mind.

He wont take any evidence as evidence, this is why his entire op was based off of one single contract, the one he coild find that fits his view, as absolute proof.

Anyone cam google or bing this subject and find terrabytes of sources, he could only find one that zupports his view, this is the reason for his lack of evidence, and attempting to use evidence that contadicts his view as evidence that supports it.

I may read some more of this thread, but I am done I think, unless the op wants to talk in facts and numbers.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by camaro68ss
 


I think we are all wasting our time and words, it is obvious to me at this point the op is the one with the closed mind.

He wont take any evidence as evidence, this is why his entire op was based off of one single contract, the one he coild find that fits his view, as absolute proof.

Anyone cam google or bing this subject and find terrabytes of sources, he could only find one that zupports his view, this is the reason for his lack of evidence, and attempting to use evidence that contadicts his view as evidence that supports it.

I may read some more of this thread, but I am done I think, unless the op wants to talk in facts and numbers.



No one but the OP has provided evidence. Just opinion.

If it's so easy to google and find sources, please do so and post them to this thread so that those of us who aren't as intelligent as you can have easy access to them.

Thanks for all your hard work!



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:06 PM
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reply to post by tide88
 


I was actually following up on this till you opened your mouth(text) and said (I decided to do it this way....). Thats like the guy who's always saying "I was just about to say that" on Jeopardy. What a crock. Unlike you there was a day that I WAS in Charge of million dollar Contracts for Uncle Sugar as a Military member, GS-13 and a Contractor. You Sir are a fraud and the rest of these good people should not be taken in with your BS.
Now I'm leaving this session and coming back as someone new because I DON"T TRUST MY GOVI not to track me down with the info I just released and wee wee in my oats.
As for the rest of you Honest ATSers GOD Bless and keep up the good fight

As for the OP "SHUT UP FOOL"

Over and Out



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by kozmo
reply to post by TinkerHaus
 


Simply stated... NO organization trains with hollow-point or green-tip ammo - NONE! EVER!

Care to Explain the 2,700 MRAP armored personnel carriers and the 2,500 GLS armored fighting platforms procured in 2012? Oh wait, let me guess... they needed a safe vehicle to drive to the store to get milk, right?

Maybe you can enlighten us on the $1B spent on MRE's, body bags and coffins in 2012? This is more than 15 times the normal procurement range within a fiscal year for DHS.

How about bullet proof checkpoint booths? Riot gear? Enough body armor to outfit each DHS employee TWICE!

All of this in the past year!

Couple that with flat out refusals to respond to FOIA requests and you have a rogue agency functioning well outside of its intended charter.


Sure, the MRAP story was a hoax. The order for the 2700 MRAP was for the marines, not DHS.

NAVSTAR LANDS 880 MILLION DEFENSE CONTRACT




Lisle-based Navistar Defense LLC landed an $880 million order from the U.S. Marine Corps to upgrade more than 2,700 mine resistant ambush protected vehicles, the company announced Tuesday.

The Navistar International Corp. subsidiary will retrofit the MaxxPro vehicles with new rolling chassis to improve their off-road capability.


Here are some links from some site who actually like to report the truth once it is found out the original information was a hoax.

UPDATE DHS NOT BUYING 2700 MRAP




Update: An earlier version of this post included a figure of over 2,700 vehicles, as cited from the original RT link. This figure likely comes from a press release from Navistar Defense, mentioning delivery of 2,717 to the U.S. Marine Corps. A DHS Spokesman confirmed with Business Insider that they have only 16 nationwide.

Read more: www.businessinsider.com...


See how easy it is to find the truth out. Doesn't it make you wonder what else you believe to be true actually isn't.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by TinkerHaus
And toward the OPs argument that the orders are to use the entire budget -

My brother recently was honorably discharged from the National Guard. Before he went into the NG he was active Army, and did two combat tours in Iraq.. Not one of those guys who went there in 2008 to sit in a tent, but someone who was there for the initial invasion and saw real combat.

When they do live fire exercises in the National Guard, they often end up with thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of rounds left over. At that point they all go out and just shoot. No direction, no scoring, no rating.. Just burning ammo. Why? Because if they fail to use it all then they cannot justify their budget the following fiscal year.

So the OPs argument is a valid one. Instead of coming back with your opinion, maybe it would serve you better to do some research and respond with verifiable fact.


Wrong bro, ammo comes in wooden crates, we always have rounds left over, but if the crate isnt opened it os returned, we also have to police up all the brass and place it back into the cardboard packs, and back into the ammo cans and back into the crate so they can send it back to be reloaded.

We never just stood around a wasted thousands of rounds. Maybd hundreds if the crate was opened, to finish it off, but not thousands or tens of thousands.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:10 PM
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OP,
Your wrong, the bullets being bought are not all at once but over the last year.

Also just today Monday MArch 25th, 2013:




While the Department of Homeland Security continues to ignore members of Congress demanding to know why the federal agency is engaged in an apparent arms build-up, the DHS has just announced it plans to purchase another 360,000 rounds of hollow point ammunition to add to the roughly 2 billion bullets already bought over the past year. A solicitation on the ( ( Federal Business Opportunities) website details the DHS’ plan to purchase 360,000 rounds of “Commercial leaded training ammo (CLTA) Pistol .40 caliber 165 grain, jacketed hollow point

Link

And the beat goes on, while they ignore our questions why they need so much. Also I went to a couple local gun shops a few weeks ago to look at some hand guns, and the store owners told me there is an extremely loooong waiting period for the most popular ammo and its all due to the Gov buying it all up.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by inverslyproportional

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
And toward the OPs argument that the orders are to use the entire budget -

My brother recently was honorably discharged from the National Guard. Before he went into the NG he was active Army, and did two combat tours in Iraq.. Not one of those guys who went there in 2008 to sit in a tent, but someone who was there for the initial invasion and saw real combat.

When they do live fire exercises in the National Guard, they often end up with thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of rounds left over. At that point they all go out and just shoot. No direction, no scoring, no rating.. Just burning ammo. Why? Because if they fail to use it all then they cannot justify their budget the following fiscal year.

So the OPs argument is a valid one. Instead of coming back with your opinion, maybe it would serve you better to do some research and respond with verifiable fact.


Wrong bro, ammo comes in wooden crates, we always have rounds left over, but if the crate isnt opened it os returned, we also have to police up all the brass and place it back into the cardboard packs, and back into the ammo cans and back into the crate so they can send it back to be reloaded.

We never just stood around a wasted thousands of rounds. Maybd hundreds if the crate was opened, to finish it off, but not thousands or tens of thousands.


I have seen video of exactly what I described. Not just small arms ammunition either. I'm going to believe my brother, who is an intelligent and honest person, before some random dude on the internet. Sorry, bro.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by TinkerHaus
[This is incorrect. My firearms instructor is an NRA certified Range Master and active police office. They DO train with JHP and FMJ. These rounds shoot differently, and you need experience with JHP if that's what you'll be using in the field.

I'm not aware of most of the other claims you've made, but if you have sources I'd be happy to familiarize myself.

infowars is not a source.


I come from a family of military and police. FMJ is 99% of all effective training ammo. Under no circumstance is JHP EVER required in practice and qualifying. An officer MAY elect to procure LIMITED JHP for practice purposes (for reasons you state), but that is heavily restricted due to cost. That said, an officer is welcome to burn through as many personally procured JHP rounds as they may desire.

I'm also compelled to mention that under the Hague Convention of 1899, ALL hollow-point small arms are restricted in combat! As a result, DOD does not procure it.

Next, I am not about to share my FPDS nor SAM login and password for you to "Familiarize yourself". This would amount to a felony. There are other ways that you can validate if you so desire.

I don't really need to prove that these things are happening - I know they are. I also don't much care who believes it or not. In time, everyone will see it and feel it. I'm merely in this thread to call "Bullocks" on the claims made by the OP.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by camaro68ss
 


I think we are all wasting our time and words, it is obvious to me at this point the op is the one with the closed mind.

He wont take any evidence as evidence, this is why his entire op was based off of one single contract, the one he coild find that fits his view, as absolute proof.

Anyone cam google or bing this subject and find terrabytes of sources, he could only find one that zupports his view, this is the reason for his lack of evidence, and attempting to use evidence that contadicts his view as evidence that supports it.

I may read some more of this thread, but I am done I think, unless the op wants to talk in facts and numbers.



Why don't you post some links to back up your claims? I have posted the actual contracts, the orginal, the modified, and the final awarded contract. Some of these large ones like the one for 175 million rounds of ammunition was never even awarded to anyone.

As for ones that support my view, THEY ARE THE ACTUAL CONTRACTS, not articles written by somebody else. Why don't you post the actual contracts that show that these bullets have been purchased.

Better yet, why don't you explain why the articles you claim prove that DHS is stockpiling these bullets get their information from the same contracts I have linked to. The only difference is they are cherry picking the information in those contracts to back up their claims and I am using the whole contract. Funny how they like to use the number from the initial solicitation, but then refuse to use the amended orders and final awarded contract.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by tide88
 


I'm actually in Government Contracting, I tried to tell people it was an ID/IQ (Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity) but my credentials as Contracting don't trump some peoples credentials as CTs.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by TinkerHaus
 


No problem I understand, just keep in mind most of us church our stories up to our friends and families to make us sound cool.

Who wants to serve for years and only have stories of rapping off thousands of blanks in training, when all you have to do is add a zero here to the ammo count, or forget to mention that you were just firing on the qualification range, I stead of the " ya we were just full auto firing like 10, 000 rounds in every direction for the fun of it".

I get this every day, my kids are always asking me how many people I killed and did I do this or that, Nd even though I have told them a hundred times, they always want my answer to be that I was rambo and killed 47 people with a shoe string etc..

I still break their hearts and tell them the truth, I never killed anyone, or even shot my weapon in anger.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by TinkerHaus

No one but the OP has provided evidence. Just opinion.

If it's so easy to google and find sources, please do so and post them to this thread so that those of us who aren't as intelligent as you can have easy access to them.

Thanks for all your hard work!



Because unless you have FPDS or SAM system access, you're not going to see the full RFP, RFQ suite nor will you see the System for Award Management. In fact, ONLY the winner of the contract is disclosed the details through SAM. Often, many contract riders contain "non-disclosure" clauses whereas a violation renders the awarded contract "void". By accepting and entering into a PO with "requestor", the seller or provider is bound by strict terms and contract guidelines.

You are welcome to exercise your FOIA rights - but I wish you the best of luck. DHS routinely ignores FOIA requests and does not bother to even respond as outlined by law. When/if they do, you are likely to receive some heavily redacted document not even related to your initial request.

Your flippant demands for "Proof" demonstrate how little you understand of the government procurement procedures.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by dominicus
OP,
Your wrong, the bullets being bought are not all at once but over the last year.

Also just today Monday MArch 25th, 2013:




While the Department of Homeland Security continues to ignore members of Congress demanding to know why the federal agency is engaged in an apparent arms build-up, the DHS has just announced it plans to purchase another 360,000 rounds of hollow point ammunition to add to the roughly 2 billion bullets already bought over the past year. A solicitation on the ( ( Federal Business Opportunities) website details the DHS’ plan to purchase 360,000 rounds of “Commercial leaded training ammo (CLTA) Pistol .40 caliber 165 grain, jacketed hollow point

Link

And the beat goes on, while they ignore our questions why they need so much. Also I went to a couple local gun shops a few weeks ago to look at some hand guns, and the store owners told me there is an extremely loooong waiting period for the most popular ammo and its all due to the Gov buying it all up.


Actually they were contracts signed last year as stated 450 million rounds over 5 years and in the OP. I have also provided a link to the contract that says they only need to purchase 10,000 rounds of each type of ammo in the first year, after that they are not required to purchase another round.

And yes, according to the article you linked DHS recently posted a solicitation to purchase 360,000 rounds of HP's and as I have explained, that is a solicitation, not an actual purchase order. As I linked in the OP, they also solicited to buy 21.6 million rounds of ammo in Feb, but when the final contract was awarded it was only 140,000 rounds.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:25 PM
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reply to post by jimmyx
 



ATS seems to becoming more and more a "OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT" site...hundreds of threads on how americans are getting screwed over by their government, and how taking violent action is the only solution. a divide and conquer sentiment seems to be growing every day, may i remind americans, that there are people that are foreigners, that would love to see a new american civil war.


Your right about one thing, foreigners who want a civil war!!!

I call them "Progressives"!

I find it very strange that Progressives like to throw out that little phrase, "Overthrow the Government", while that is EXACTLY what the Progressives have done! You know, "fundamentally change America"!

Your way of twisting words to make those who actually LOVE THEIR COUNTRY to make them look out to be bad guys, while making your cowardly attack on our Constitution is disgusting.......



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by tide88

Originally posted by kozmo
reply to post by TinkerHaus
 


Simply stated... NO organization trains with hollow-point or green-tip ammo - NONE! EVER!

Care to Explain the 2,700 MRAP armored personnel carriers and the 2,500 GLS armored fighting platforms procured in 2012? Oh wait, let me guess... they needed a safe vehicle to drive to the store to get milk, right?

Maybe you can enlighten us on the $1B spent on MRE's, body bags and coffins in 2012? This is more than 15 times the normal procurement range within a fiscal year for DHS.

How about bullet proof checkpoint booths? Riot gear? Enough body armor to outfit each DHS employee TWICE!

All of this in the past year!

Couple that with flat out refusals to respond to FOIA requests and you have a rogue agency functioning well outside of its intended charter.


Sure, the MRAP story was a hoax. The order for the 2700 MRAP was for the marines, not DHS.

NAVSTAR LANDS 880 MILLION DEFENSE CONTRACT




Lisle-based Navistar Defense LLC landed an $880 million order from the U.S. Marine Corps to upgrade more than 2,700 mine resistant ambush protected vehicles, the company announced Tuesday.

The Navistar International Corp. subsidiary will retrofit the MaxxPro vehicles with new rolling chassis to improve their off-road capability.


Here are some links from some site who actually like to report the truth once it is found out the original information was a hoax.

UPDATE DHS NOT BUYING 2700 MRAP




Update: An earlier version of this post included a figure of over 2,700 vehicles, as cited from the original RT link. This figure likely comes from a press release from Navistar Defense, mentioning delivery of 2,717 to the U.S. Marine Corps. A DHS Spokesman confirmed with Business Insider that they have only 16 nationwide.

Read more: www.businessinsider.com...


See how easy it is to find the truth out. Doesn't it make you wonder what else you believe to be true actually isn't.


I stand corrected. I looked into contract M67854-07-D-5032 in FPDS and have determined that this requisition is under the United States Navy.



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:35 PM
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This article appears to be credible to refute the OP's point:

Business Insider

I'm not saying the sky is falling or anything about the government.

But I do have a question: Why is this needed? Fair, I believe.

The term "stockpiling" is putting bias in at the front end of the thread. The word means "to acquire a large quantity of something." Okay, define "large."



posted on Mar, 25 2013 @ 12:41 PM
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reply to post by kozmo
 


My mom bought a car once and transferred it into my name...

DHS MRAP's





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