Is it acceptable to live together when your not married?

It is absolutely NOT ok to live together prior to marriage,,,pre-marital sex might lead to dancing...

(...sorry...old Baptist joke...couldn't resist...)

Just for the record EB there are many men who suffer from abusive women yet remain and love their wives why?in the hope of one day that same love will be returned.Thats why some women remain and suffer through it also.

Abuse is abuse and it comes in many different forms.The scares internally and externally are`nt much different.Physical abuse is just one kind,verbal abuse another,the lack of communication or attention can be another.All however can be overcome though sadly some cannot if one refuses to forgive or refuses to refine their ways.

Too many people nowadays enter a relationship too lightly and divorces have become kinda trendy among some.Leaving children fatherless and the cycle keeps expanding because of broken families and the lack of a strong loving family.

Mainly as i see it through the lack of Godlessness though is`nt totally necessary for a successful union, love and caring for the other is(i could argue though these qualities are from God).Both men and women husband and wife are not above the marriage nor is it something that should be treated like a disposable camera,i can talk with experience of a failed marriage some 15 years ago and the importance of being equally yoked.

I also think that its all too easy for many to think of being told to Love Honor etc your partner can make one feel as though they are caged and bound in it,instead of just doing it and putting it into practice,if both have the outlook of love and forever what ever comes it will have the building blocks to be successful.

Originally posted by apocalypticon
It is absolutely NOT ok to live together prior to marriage,,,pre-marital sex might lead to dancing...

(...sorry...old Baptist joke...couldn't resist...)

i like that

Oh and i forgot to give my take on the thread topic in my last post.I think its best if one marries before sex,but if a couple is dedicated toward each other beforehand and they live together or not and have sex,well i can`t see a problem with it personally,only God knows your hearts.Because ``i`m of the view that God see`s it as a marriage when two join.Not that i condone my view to be totally correct.

Now medaling outlaws,thats a tricky one

[edit on 7-9-2006 by gps777]

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
So...God can perform divorces? Really? How? By divine intervention?

He created the universe so I don't think there's anything He cannot do.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
And....if God doesn't believe in divorce, why would he perform divorces? A little double-talk going on here......

Not at all. God makes the decision because He has the authority.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
And this is amusing...if God separates a couple, it's a beaurocratical issue? Really?

Meaning official papers would then have to follow.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
So God is now a beaurocrat? When did this happen? I missed that part of the Bible......

Deuteronomy, certificate of divorce, but you already know that since you've read the Bible, right?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Here's a tidbit for you...and where was God in this:

70% of married women in Russia have dealt with violence by their husbands. One woman is killed every hour by a partner, former partner or relative.

What did I say about abusive situations? Did you forget already?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Why didn't God divorce any of these women before they were murdered? Were they of the wrong religion? Were they supposed to beg God for mercy just before the final blow that took their lives? Seriously....what's your answer?

Why are you asking me? Do you think that I am God? Ask Him.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
If God can divorce people, why doesn't he? I haven't heard of one case where God has divorced a couple.

I haven't either, but just because I haven't heard of it I'm not going to say it is impossible.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Maybe somebody can help me out here because I just did a Google search and couldn't find a single couple that was divorced by God.

Perhaps then there's your answer.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
"For ten years she endured his beatings, threats and rages, assuming, like so many abused women, that it was somehow her fault." Many Christians make women feel exactly like this woman felt!!...because no divorces allowed...so PUT UP WITH IT!!...if you divorce it's a sin according to the BACs and if you sin you don't get your place in Heaven so take the abuse.....you will end up in Heaven once you are dead and the beatings stop.

Do I have it right Saint4??

No.

quote: Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
And this is amusing...if God separates a couple, it's a beaurocratical issue? Really?

answer: from Saint4God
Meaning official papers would then have to follow.

Sorry Saint4...but this was quite amusing. So when God separates a couple, there are official papers needed. Ummm...how does God get those papers to the people being divorced? Does he fax them to their attorneys?

quote: Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
So...God can perform divorces? Really? How? By divine intervention?

answer: from Saint4God
He created the universe so I don't think there's anything He cannot do.

This isn't an answer.....it's dodging the question.



[edit on 7-9-2006 by Excitable_Boy]

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Sorry Saint4...but this was quite amusing. So when God separates a couple, there are official papers needed.

I don't see that written. It has become a cultural norm.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Ummm...how does God get those papers to the people being divorced?

God doesn't need to deliver those papers. He's concerned with the spirit, not sawdust.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Does he fax them to their attorneys?

Now you're being facetious. But, it's not impossible.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
This isn't an answer.....it's dodging the question.

I don't know how since He hasn't done so for me. You'd have to ask Him, or ask a couple that have both received this word. I know I'm not going to try to "make the rules of God" or say things are impossible for Him.

Some more information you probably already know since you've read the Bible about conduct of a married couple:

"Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect..." - 1 Peter 3:7

"Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. For,
"Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep his tongue from evil
and his lips from deceitful speech.
He must turn from evil and do good;
he must seek peace and pursue it.
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."..." - 1 Peter 3:8-13

[edit on 8-9-2006 by saint4God]

For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.

Okay dodger once again......the face of the Lord is against those who do evil? Okay....so what does he do while they are alive? What does he do for a woman being abused? How is the man punished while he is alive? Don't tell me he is a sinner and is going to be damned to hell. I want to know what God is going to do for that woman now? Can she get a divorce from the abusive male? YES or NO! Simple question Saint4 that you have been doging for several pages now.....just answer it already.

You said God can divorce people. So...will God, as you know him, allow this poor abused woman a damn divorce??

Don't bother answering if you are just going to continue to dodge the question and quote scriptute that also provides absolutely no answer to the question.....

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy

For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.

Okay dodger once again......

I've dodged nothing, if I missed the question speak plainly.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
the face of the Lord is against those who do evil?

That is what it says.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Okay....so what does he do while they are alive?

That's up to Him. He God, me not, you not.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
What does he do for a woman being abused?

We would have to ask the believing woman who is in that situation.

I'm sure this may seem to be a great mystery for many who do not believe, but...

"All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering." - 2 Thessalonians 1:5

"Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed." - 1 Peter 4:12-13

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
How is the man punished while he is alive? Don't tell me he is a sinner and is going to be damned to hell.

Why is eternal hell not enough for you?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
I want to know what God is going to do for that woman now?

You really count your 70 + - years on this earth as equivalent to eternity?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Can she get a divorce from the abusive male? YES or NO!

Yes. Certainly she can. There are many things we CAN do. What we're discussing is what is the right thing to do. In addressing believers:

"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything." - 1 Corinthians 6:12

"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive." - 1 Corinthians 10:23

Also in this address is the difference between what we're allowed to do, versus what is the best thing to do. Believers wish to please God. How do you please God? Listen to Him. Listen to what his Son said:

"Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." - Mark 10:9

Why? He explains that too:

"They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."

"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied." - Mark 10:4-5

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Simple question Saint4 that you have been doging for several pages now.....just answer it already.

I did.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
You said God can divorce people. So...will God, as you know him, allow this poor abused woman a damn divorce??

Ultimately that's between her and God, not for either of us to say. I can tell you though, I've not seen where God and His Word has contradicted. If the divorced be damned, then she should not get one because it is better to suffer on earth than to be eternally damned.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Don't bother answering if you are just going to continue to dodge the question and quote scriptute that also provides absolutely no answer to the question.....

The scripture does answer. Sorry you're not able to read that text. In fact, it is more specific and detailed than anything I could ever explain.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by saint4God]

The scripture does answer. Sorry you're not able to read that text. In fact, it is more specific and detailed than anything I could ever explain.

Your scriptures...ANSWER NOTHING!! I asked you to just answer the question and not quote scripture but you can't....why? Do you have any thoughts of your own? You feel the woman being abused should put up with it until the guy kills her and then she will have a place in heaven? So, you feel it's okay for her to be abused? Because in the long run, she will have eternal peace in heaven? So 70+ years of beatings, torture, rape, cheating etc.....you name it...and that's okay in your mind because she will get a place in heaven for enduring the suffering caused by another human being? This makes sense to you? This is a horrible philosophy and is disgusting.....any woman reading this must me horrified!

We would have to ask the believing woman who is in that situation.

I'm sure this may seem to be a great mystery for many who do not believe, but...

"All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering." - 2 Thessalonians 1:5

"Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed." - 1 Peter 4:12-13

Here's where the useless scriptures begin. We would have to ask the woman what? "Ummm, Mrs Johnson, I know your husband has been beating you almost daily now for 5 years and abusing you in others ways....what do you want to do?" That's your plan? Most will be so terrified...they will stay with the man...don't you know anything about WHAT HAPPENS TO ABUSED WOMEN? The Bible allows this sort of thing to happen. It allows men like you to say it's okay for other men to abuse women....it is horrific. "Don't worry Mrs Johnson, just put up with all the abuse and you will go to heaven." That's your plan? That is pathetic!!

Your scriptures say what? The same thing.....put up with the abuse and you will go to heaven. This was obviously written by men so they can abuse women and get away with it! and people like you follow it, preach it and condone it....makes me want to throw up!

How is the man punished while he is alive? Don't tell me he is a sinner and is going to be damned to hell.

answer from Saint4God:
Why is eternal hell not enough for you?

So he can keep on abusing the woman while alive and then he gets eternal damnation. That's it? I asked what should happen while he is alive...and you AGAIN talk about eternal damnation. What does his eternal damnation do for the woman he is abusing while she is being abused? WHAT DOES IT DO FOR HER? It tells her that she is less than human and to put up with the abuse....."Don't worry Mrs Johnson...he's going to go to hell. Do you want some bandages? Your good eye seems to be bleeding pretty bad and I think that knife wound is getting infected. Where's your husband? Wasn't he supposed to start the steaks by now?"

Eternal hell is not enough Saint4...because A. HELL DOES NOT EXIST and B. THE MAN NEEDS TO BE PUNISHED NOW IN THE REAL WORLD WHERE IT IS HAPPENING!!!!

quote: Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Can she get a divorce from the abusive male? YES or NO!

answer: from Saint4God
Yes. Certainly she can. There are many things we CAN do. What we're discussing is what is the right thing to do. In addressing believers:

Oh...and in your world, the right thing to do is keep letting the woman get abused until the man finally kills her and then she will be rewarded with heaven and he will go to hell. That is a warped way of looking at how to help an abused woman....and it's people like you that make if difficult for religious women to leave abusive situations and people like you that give advice to these women that they should stay married and stay with the abuser....therefore, anyone like yourself that for any reason causes a woman to stay in an abusive situation by manipulating her or making her feel guilty or making her feel like she is doing something wrong for wanting a divorce...every one of you that gives advice like this is no better than the abuser....and you should all do time for it!!....the abuser and any of you that guilt her into staying in the relationship. If that man kills that woman...you should all be tried as accessories to that murder!! PERIOD!!

Ultimately that's between her and God, not for either of us to say. I can tell you though, I've not seen where God and His Word has contradicted. If the divorced be damned, then she should not get one because it is better to suffer on earth than to be eternally damned.

"It is better to suffer on earth than to be eternally damned." That's your final answer? Well it's a horrific one. This is the excuse religious men....bible preaching men have used for a long time to allow themselves and others to abuse women. The Bible is a text written by men, for men. Women are less than human in it...and in your last post...you proved my point quite well. You say you are dealing with some of this in your real life. I hope and pray that if this is the advice you are giving ANY women in your life....I hope they are smart enough not to listen to a single thing that comes out of your mouth.

Based on the calmness and coolness that you can discuss this issue......it reminds me of the way smooth talking psycopaths act....i.e. Ted Bundy.

"If he's still married, this abusive man, can he marry again?"

Yes . three ways that come to mind are:
He can institute divorce procedings
He can join a Polygamist community
He can commit bigamy.

love and caring for the other is(i could argue though these qualities are from God)

The question that begs to be asked here is of course what God? Perhaps the
situations discussed above are the result of pauline christianitys removal and degredation of the Goddess, the feminine aspect of the One that watches over us all?

Both men and women husband and wife are not above the marriage ... and the importance of being equally yoked.

IMO the sucess or failure of a Marraige has less to do with religious beliefs than it does with communication and shared interests.

In a few days My Wife and I will have been married 26 years. When we married
she was a life long devoted SDA, I a Pagan devoted to beer, pickled pork hocks
and boiled eggs.
It is our shared belief in "one mountain , many paths" that has helped us through many times. She has even found enlightenment in the form of " any fool can make bread, but Beer is the devine use of grain."

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Your scriptures...ANSWER NOTHING!!

Actually they answer quite a lot. Not sure why you're exclaiming and capitalizing. Is it the character of your namesake or is your namesake just a really accurate discription of your character?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
I asked you to just answer the question and not quote scripture but you can't....why?

What can I say that has not already been written?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Do you have any thoughts of your own?

Certainly, and have shared them. These sentences can be readily identified with the words "I think", "I believe", and "we should" among others.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
You feel the woman being abused should put up with it until the guy kills her and then she will have a place in heaven?

No. Nor is it what I said. Hopefully you can let go of these preconceived notions before the prejudice becomes overwhelmingly apparent.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
So, you feel it's okay for her to be abused?

No. Nor is it what I said.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Because in the long run, she will have eternal peace in heaven?

No. Nor is it what I said.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
So 70+ years of beatings, torture, rape, cheating etc.....you name it...and that's okay in your mind because she will get a place in heaven for enduring the suffering caused by another human being?

No. Nor is it what I said.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
This makes sense to you?

No. Nor is it what I said. Have you noticed a pattern yet?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
This is a horrible philosophy and is disgusting.....any woman reading this must me horrified!

I agree it would be a horrible philosophy and is disgusting, I'm glad I don't have it. Rightly so a woman should not feel it is okay to be beaten and be upset at the suggestion that it is.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Here's where the useless scriptures begin.

Useless to you perhaps.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
We would have to ask the woman what? "Ummm, Mrs Johnson, I know your husband has been beating you almost daily now for 5 years and abusing you in others ways....what do you want to do?"

That answer should be obvious. Did you forget what we talked about already?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
That's your plan?

When did I say this?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Most will be so terrified...they will stay with the man...don't you know anything about WHAT HAPPENS TO ABUSED WOMEN?

I've answered this question several times before.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
The Bible allows this sort of thing to happen. It allows men like you to say it's okay for other men to abuse women....it is horrific.

Where does it say this?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
"Don't worry Mrs Johnson, just put up with all the abuse and you will go to heaven." That's your plan? That is pathetic!!

Where did I say this?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Your scriptures say what?

It is apparent that yes you do not understand what they say, as I've said it numerous times before.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
The same thing.....put up with the abuse and you will go to heaven. This was obviously written by men so they can abuse women and get away with it! and people like you

Tell me more about "people like me", I'm always interested in learning more about myself.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
follow it, preach it and condone it....makes me want to throw up!

IF that is what is preached, followed and condones, then yes, it would make both of us throw up.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
So he can keep on abusing the woman while alive and then he gets eternal damnation. That's it? I asked what should happen while he is alive...and you AGAIN talk about eternal damnation.

Why is this blink of time so important to you? It is 70 + - years compared to eternity. You want all justice served while we live, which seems very impatient. God may indeed administer this justice while we live but that is not for either of us to decide.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
What does his eternal damnation do for the woman he is abusing while she is being abused? WHAT DOES IT DO FOR HER?

Already answered.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
It tells her that she is less than human and to put up with the abuse....."Don't worry Mrs Johnson...he's going to go to hell. Do you want some bandages? Your good eye seems to be bleeding pretty bad and I think that knife wound is getting infected. Where's your husband? Wasn't he supposed to start the steaks by now?"

I hope this rant is making you feel better. I know people in abusive situations and it bothers me that you take this all in a very trivial manner.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Eternal hell is not enough Saint4...because A. HELL DOES NOT EXIST

And you can say this because.... ?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
and B. THE MAN NEEDS TO BE PUNISHED NOW IN THE REAL WORLD WHERE IT IS HAPPENING!!!!

We have a legal system. Or, is it that which you are unhappy with?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Oh...and in your world,

I don't have a world, nor do I want one.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
the right thing to do is keep letting the woman get abused until the man finally kills her and then she will be rewarded with heaven and he will go to hell.

No. Nor is it what I said.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
That is a warped way of looking at how to help an abused woman....

I agree it would be for those who think this. I am not one of them.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
and it's people like you

Please give a detailed account of my history, experiences, education, job functions and family. Most of the time you have to dial a 1-900 number to get this kind of "informative" service but if you already know about "people like me" and are willing to discuss it, I'd certainly like to hear it.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
that make if difficult for religious women to leave abusive situations and people like you

Tell me about "people like me". Draw lines in the sand, that's how war starts my friend.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
that give advice to these women that they should stay married and stay with the abuser....therefore, anyone like yourself

Please name one person who is like me.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
that for any reason causes a woman to stay in an abusive situation by manipulating her or making her feel guilty or making her feel like she is doing something wrong for wanting a divorce...every one of you that gives advice like this is no better than the abuser....

Fortunately for me, I'm not giving advice to make people feel guilty, doing something wrong, etc...

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
and you should all do time for it!!

What is my crime?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
....the abuser and any of you that guilt her into staying in the relationship. If that man kills that woman...you should all be tried as accessories to that murder!! PERIOD!!

See you in court. You know how to reach me, copy and paste the subpoena.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
"It is better to suffer on earth than to be eternally damned." That's your final answer?

It was because you said she would be damned by divorcing. Read your own words.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Well it's a horrific one. This is the excuse religious men....bible preaching men have used for a long time to allow themselves and others to abuse women. The Bible is a text written by men, for men. Women are less than human in it...

This is not true.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
and in your last post...you proved my point quite well. You say you are dealing with some of this in your real life. I hope and pray that if this is the advice you are giving ANY women in your life....I hope they are smart enough not to listen to a single thing that comes out of your mouth.

Which is why I tend to quote more than speak for myself. I have the same goal in that regard. Yet, you're insisting I "think for myself". Which do you want?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Based on the calmness and coolness that you can discuss this issue......it reminds me of the way smooth talking psycopaths act....i.e. Ted Bundy.

What's that supposed to mean?

[edit on 12-9-2006 by saint4God]

quote: Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Based on the calmness and coolness that you can discuss this issue......it reminds me of the way smooth talking psycopaths act....i.e. Ted Bundy.

response from Saint4God:
What's that supposed to mean?

I think you know exactly what I mean Saint4. "A person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience."

I feel some of your beliefs and posts show a lack of moral responsibility and social conscience. Take it any way you like. You are so caught up in your BOOK, you can't see the truth staring you in the face.

The answer to everything is not in your BOOK. The answer to most things are in having character, integrity, morals and also a sense or moral responsibility and social conscience. Based on what you have posted, I feel you lack these characteristics and I find it very disturbing.

[edit on 12-9-2006 by Excitable_Boy]

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
I think you know exactly what I mean Saint4. "A person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience."

Dude, if I were anti-social, would I be on a board with hundreds of thousands of people? Doesn't make sense, do it? I'm working at a company of over a hundred thousand people at this moment, go to a church with a thousand people per Sunday, take Kung-Fu classes, am back in college with thirteen thousand people, and oh yeah starting a leadership class tomorrow night. I could discuss in greater detail the more extensive flaws in your false assumption, doctor, but I have more important things to do than to undergo self-justification. Don't care what you think about me, nor am I the reason why I'm here.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
I feel some of your beliefs and posts show a lack of moral responsibility and social conscience. Take iit any way you like. You are so caught up in your BOOK, you can't see the truth staring you in the face.

Speak plainly. What truth am I missing?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
The answer to everything is not in your BOOK. The answer to most things are in having character, integrity, morals and also a sense or moral responsibility and social conscience. Based on what you have posted, I feel you lack these characteristics and I find it very disturbing.

Feel what you like. Sorry you're disturbed.

[edit on 12-9-2006 by saint4God]

Speak plainly. What truth am I missing?

The truth regarding what women go through in abusive relationships and the fact that God would want them away from the abuse. And yes, I understand that men get abused as well, and the same holds true for them. Getting away from the abuse doesn't just mean "leaving the house" (that is pretty naive, WADR) as you said in one of your posts. It means:

1. Pressing charges for the abuse and following through so that the person is put away because he or she does not belong in society
2. Divorcing the person that is the abuser (and this is fine with God...he would want a stop put to it in these people's lifetimes not in the afterlife).
3. Giving the person real choices not fantasies written in your BOOK about how the abuser will be damned to hell and the victim will go to heaven. We're not talking about fantasies here....we're talking about real people that need justice served swiftly, not after they are dead!
4. The abused person has a right as a human being to have another chance at love and have a chance to live in a loving relationship as a married couple with someone else that won't abuse them. Which means, not only are they entitled to a divorce...they are also entitled to marry again. One doesn't need to read this in your BOOK...it's just plain common sense and it is morally and ethically correct! Anyone with a conscience would see this.

quote: Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
The answer to everything is not in your BOOK. The answer to most things are in having character, integrity, morals and also a sense or moral responsibility and social conscience. Based on what you have posted, I feel you lack these characteristics and I find it very disturbing.

This goes along with my #4 above. When reading your BOOK and giving advice, try to also look at any given situation with a sense of moral responsibility and social conscience. Anyone that has been abused deserves this and a lot more! The answers to EVERYTHING are not in your BOOK which again, was written by men for men.

Here's a good example of how men use your BOOK for their own questionable interests: The DAY BEFORE I married my first wife, her father had a chat with me out on the porch and told me that it was okay for me to cheat on his daughter because it said so in the Bible. What do you think of that? He wasn't just telling me this, he was encouraging it! He also said that the same was not true for her and that if she ever cheated on me, I had his blessing to beat her with a belt. Because, he said, that too was in the Bible.

Like I said....written by men for men....and enjoyed by abusive men all over the world!

I have since remarried...my second wife is wonderful BTW. God is a loving God and is happy that we are living a wonderful happy life on this earth together. He does not care that I was married before and that my wife was married before. God wants us to enjoy the life He gave us to the best of our ability. He does not want us to use some book that He had absolutely nothing to do with writing as a guide for how we live our lives......because that guide was written by men, not by Him, and it was written for questionable reasons.........

Peace!

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
The truth regarding what women go through in abusive relationships and the fact that God would want them away from the abuse. And yes, I understand that men get abused as well, and the same holds true for them. Getting away from the abuse doesn't just mean "leaving the house" (that is pretty naive, WADR) as you said in one of your posts. It means:

1. Pressing charges for the abuse and following through so that the person is put away because he or she does not belong in society

This can be done without a divorce. It's a decision that woman will have to make regarding the assessment of the situation and the severity of the infraction. I'm all for God, her friends, family, etc. giving counsel to help in making that decision. I believe that abusee has the right to ultimately choice the correct course of action regarding the prevention of future abuses.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
2. Divorcing the person that is the abuser (and this is fine with God...he would want a stop put to it in these people's lifetimes not in the afterlife).

You've talked with God and this is what He said?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
3. Giving the person real choices not fantasies written in your BOOK about how the abuser will be damned to hell and the victim will go to heaven. We're not talking about fantasies here....we're talking about real people that need justice served swiftly, not after they are dead!

Certainly we should not be inactive during this life towards doing the right thing. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that a person needs to get rid of things like vengence, retribution, retaliation, etc. which causes us to make poor and irrational decisions. If we can do that and think things through objectively and with the best possible outcome in mind, than certainly that is a positive step in the right direction.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
4. The abused person has a right as a human being to have another chance at love and have a chance to live in a loving relationship as a married couple with someone else that won't abuse them. Which means, not only are they entitled to a divorce...they are also entitled to marry again. One doesn't need to read this in your BOOK...it's just plain common sense and it is morally and ethically correct! Anyone with a conscience would see this.

Funny that it was this same Book you have issue with is the one that originally said it was okay to divorce (see Old Testament). But, we find out later that we have the capability to think beyond law and are encouraged to do so.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
This goes along with my #4 above. When reading your BOOK and giving advice, try to also look at any given situation with a sense of moral responsibility and social conscience. Anyone that has been abused deserves this and a lot more! The answers to EVERYTHING are not in your BOOK which again, was written by men for men.

Apparently the Old Testament was written for women, since it was the one that allows for divorce. Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Here's a good example of how men use your BOOK for their own questionable interests: The DAY BEFORE I married my first wife, her father had a chat with me out on the porch and told me that it was okay for me to cheat on his daughter because it said so in the Bible. What do you think of that?

I think he didn't read the Bible...or if he did, he did not understand what he was reading. I'm curious to see where exactly that is said. Then, I shall quote for you what it says because it is contrary to this mode of secular thought.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
He wasn't just telling me this, he was encouraging it! He also said that the same was not true for her and that if she ever cheated on me, I had his blessing to beat her with a belt. Because, he said, that too was in the Bible.

Show me. Again, I have support otherwise.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Like I said....written by men for men....and enjoyed by abusive men all over the world!

Perhaps claimed by men to serve their purposes, but men are to serve God, not use creation for their own desires.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
I have since remarried...my second wife is wonderful BTW.

I'm glad that you're in a great relationship.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
God is a loving God and is happy that we are living a wonderful happy life on this earth together.

Awesome. That is good news seriously.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
He does not care that I was married before and that my wife was married before.

And you know this...how?

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
God wants us to enjoy the life He gave us to the best of our ability. He does not want us to use some book that He had absolutely nothing to do with writing as a guide for how we live our lives......because that guide was written by men, not by Him, and it was written for questionable reasons.........

Peace!

On the contrary, He did write part of it. Other parts He instructed people to write it down. I believe the reason why He had us write so much of it is because what He wrote, we angrily broke on a side of a mountain and had to go back up to get another copy.

Thank you for sharing in this post why you feel the way you do. I think that helps all of us gain more perspective on the reasoning behind your position.

[edit on 13-9-2006 by saint4God]

While I can see that this thread has degenerated into a pissing contest between two
members with opposing views. Many relevant questions and responses are being ignored in the process. I will continue to add responses where i feel necessary.

but men are to serve God, not use creation for their own desires.

Does not this same bible say that MAN is to have and take DOMINION over all?
Is not the dominion issue the reason that Adam had to have a second wife?

I would further submit the following (again)

Dear Children (and believe us, that's all of you), We consider ourselves pretty patient folks. For instance, look at the Grand Canyon. It took millions of years to get it right
We've been patient through your fashions, civilizations, wars and schemes.

We want to let you know about some of the things that are starting to tick Us off.

First of all, your religious rivalries are driving Us up a wall. Enough already! Let's get one thing straight: These are YOUR religions, not Ours. We're beyond them all. Every one of your religions claims there is only one of Us (which by the way, is absolutely true). And each claims its scriptures were written personally by us, and that all the other scriptures are man-made. How do We even begin to put a stop to such complicated nonsense?

Okay, listen up now. We're your Father AND Mother, and We don't play favorites among Our children.

Also, We hate to break it to you, but We don't write. Our longhand is awful, and We've always been more of "doers" anyway. So, ALL of your books, including those Bibles, were written by men and women. They were inspired, remarkable people, but they also made mistakes here and there. We made sure of that so that you would never trust a written word more than your own living heart.
You see, one human being to Us, even a bum on the street, is worth more than all the Holy Books in the world. That's just the kind of folks we are. Our spirit is not a historical thing. It's alive right here, right now, as fresh as your next breath.
.
Holy books and religious rites are sacred and powerful, but not more so than the least of you. They were only meant to steer you in the right direction, not to keep you arguing with each other, and certainly not to keep you from trusting your own personal connection with Us.

Which brings Us to Our next point about your nonsense; you act like We need you and your religions to stick up for Us or "win souls" for Our sake. Please, don't do Us any favors. We can stand quite well on our own, thank you. We don't need you to defend Us, and We don't need constant credit. We just want you to be good to each other.

The thing is, We want you to stop thinking of religion as some sort of loyalty pledge to Us.
The true purpose of your religion is so that YOU can become more aware of Us, not the other way around. Believe Us, We know you already. We know what's in each of your hearts, and We love you with no strings attached.
Lighten up and enjoy Us. That's what religion is best for.

What you seem to forget is how mysterious We are.
You look at the petty differences in your Scriptures and say, "Well, if THIS is the truth, then THAT can't be!" But instead of trying to figure out Our Paradoxes and Unfathomable Nature, which by the way, you NEVER will, why not open your hearts to the simple common threads in all religions.
You know what We're talking about. Love and respect everyone. Be kind, even when life is scary or confusing. Take courage and be of good cheer, for We are always with you. Learn how to be quiet, so you can hear Our still, small voice. (We don't like to shout).

Leave the world a better place by living your life with dignity and gracefulness, for you are Our Own Children. Hold back nothing from life, for the parts of you that can die surely will, and the parts that can't, won't.

Simple stuff. Why do you keep making it so complicated? It's like you're always looking for an excuse to be upset. And We're very tired of being your main excuse. Do you think We care whether you call Us: Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Diana, Wakantonka, Brahma, Cerridwen, Father, Mother, God, Goddess or even the Void of Nirvana? Do you think We care which of Our special children you feel closest to, Jesus, Mary, Buddha, Krishna, Gerald, Mohammed or any of the others? You can call Us and Our Special Ones any name you choose, if only you would go about Our business of loving one another as We love you. How can you keep neglecting something so simple?

We're not telling you to abandon your religions. Enjoy your religions, honor them, and learn from them, just as you should enjoy, honor, and learn from your parents.
Know that Our Special Children, the ones that your religions revolve around, all live in the same place, (Our heart), and they get along perfectly, We assure you.

The clergy must stop creating a myth of sibling rivalry where there is none. Our blessed children of Earth, the world has grown too small for your pervasive religious bigotries and confusion. The whole planet is connected by air travel, satellite dishes, telephones, fax machines, rock concerts, diseases, and mutual needs and concerns.
Get with the program! If you really want to help, then commit yourselves to figuring out how to feed your hungry, clothe your naked, protect your abused, and shelter your poor. And just as importantly, make your own everyday life a shining example of kindness and good humor. We've given you all the resources you need, if only you abandon your fear of each other and begin living, loving and laughing together.

We're not really ticked off. We just wanted to grab your attention because We hate to see you suffer.

In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust,

Us

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

but men are to serve God, not use creation for their own desires.

Does not this same bible say that MAN is to have and take DOMINION over all?

"Dominion and awe belong to God; he establishes order in the heights of heaven." - Job 25:2

"Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God's dominion over the earth?" - Job 38:33

"for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations." - Psalm 22:28

"which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come." - Ephesians 1:20-21

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Is not the dominion issue the reason that Adam had to have a second wife?

What second wife?

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
We've been patient through your fashions, civilizations, wars and schemes.

I have no wars or schemes. If you claim that I have them, charge me with them.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
We want to let you know about some of the things that are starting to tick Us off.

First of all, your religious rivalries are driving Us up a wall.

There is an "ignore" button if you choose to use it . I'm not making you listen to anything.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Enough already! Let's get one thing straight: These are YOUR religions, not Ours.

Never said it was others.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
We're beyond them all. Every one of your religions claims there is only one of Us (which by the way, is absolutely true). And each claims its scriptures were written personally by us, and that all the other scriptures are man-made. How do We even begin to put a stop to such complicated nonsense?

Start investigating.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Okay, listen up now. We're your Father AND Mother, and We don't play favorites among Our children.

?_?

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Also, We hate to break it to you, but We don't write. Our longhand is awful, and We've always been more of "doers" anyway. So, ALL of your books, including those Bibles, were written by men and women.

Actually God Himself wrote a portion of it, but we angerly broke them on the side of a mountain and had to go and get another copy. Other sections were told to be dictated. No wonder since we break what He gives us.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
They were inspired, remarkable people, but they also made mistakes here and there. We made sure of that so that you would never trust a written word more than your own living heart.
You see, one human being to Us, even a bum on the street, is worth more than all the Holy Books in the world. That's just the kind of folks we are. Our spirit is not a historical thing. It's alive right here, right now, as fresh as your next breath.
.
Holy books and religious rites are sacred and powerful, but not more so than the least of you. They were only meant to steer you in the right direction, not to keep you arguing with each other, and certainly not to keep you from trusting your own personal connection with Us.

Who is "Us"?

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Our still, small voice. (We don't like to shout).

For one that doesn't like the Bible, you seem to be okay referring to it?

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Do you think We care whether you call Us: Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Diana, Wakantonka, Brahma, Cerridwen, Father, Mother, God, Goddess or even the Void of Nirvana? Do you think We care which of Our special children you feel closest to, Jesus, Mary, Buddha, Krishna, Gerald, Mohammed or any of the others?

Please do not use God, Jehovah, Father, Yahweh and Jesus among these, we're told not to take these names in vain.

[edit on 13-9-2006 by saint4God]

quote: Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
He does not care that I was married before and that my wife was married before.

answer: from Saint4God
And you know this...how?

How? Because I am a human being and God made me one. He understands everything...EVERYTHING that being human means.

We are not the same as Him and He certainly doesn't expect us to be like Him. It wouldn't make sense for Him to expect us to be like Him. Anyone who tried or tries to be like Him, I think He would consider a false prophet....or perhaps having a God Complex??...or, just plain full of crap.....

That would be like a monkey pretending to be a lion. The monkey would still be a monkey.

StalkingWolf...that was a great post. I gave you a WATS for it. Thank you! I certainly got something out of it....and hope others do as well!!

Peace!

Gen. 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

www.biblegateway.com...


26 Then God said, ‘Let us make humankind* in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth,* and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.’

bible.oremus.org...

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

kjvbible.net...

What second wife?

Eve was the second, his first dumped him when he tried to dominate her

Who is "Us"?

In the original words of R. Jeshua, Our Father-Mother God. The God AND Goddess, Yahweh and Shekanah, Isis and Osiris.

For one that doesn't like the Bible, you seem to be okay referring to it?

I dont "like or dislike" it, I just donot believe arrived by fax from heaven. Nor does it have any more or less claim to being the unabriged
word of God than do the Sagas, Vedas, or Grimms faery tales. But then I have also
read The Lost Gospels, The Lost books, The Apocrypha, The Gnostic texts, the English versions of The DSS and the Nag Hammadi Library. I am also aware of the true nature of the writings of Solomon and David.